How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[Oroblanco]

PPS I will even make it easy for you, here is a linkee
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Dutchman...erstition/dp/B0027QVRES/?tag=treasurenet01-20

 

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[Blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote

it was writen in the killer mts by curt gentry

Did Mr Gentry interview Jacob Waltz? Or Reiney Petrasch? Or Julia Thomas? Or Dick Holmes? How about Jacob Starar? King Woolsey? No disrespect intended for Mr Gentry, but the sources closest to Jacob Waltz have never made any mention of any church involvement in the Lost Dutchman at all. The only published source on the Lost Dutchman written by a man who actually interviewed the people closest to Jacob Waltz is the book The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely. Everything else is a tertiary source, which means much more prone to error or even deliberate falsehoods. There are the Bark Notes, but even in these there are several versions and we don't know which may be correct; what I have seen does not disagree very much with Sims Ely's book version.

I have tried to raise a point for you to consider amigo, that any gold mine has to be discovered in order to become a mine in the first place; with the Peralta version we don't have anyone actually discover the mine! I haven't seen any convincing evidence (or document) that any Jesuits or Franciscans were ever active in the Superstitions either, or for that matter whether they even set foot in them. The "mountains of foam" is the name they used, a place to be avoided for the danger of the hostile Apaches.

When you try to tie in the Jesuits, Tayopa etc into the Superstitions then I wish to see the evidence to back up those theories and you have not provided it. I am still waiting to see proof that any Peralta ever had any kind of land grant, mining concession etc for the Superstitions either. These stories may be interesting and entertaining amigo but they are not absolutely necessary to the core of Jacob Waltz's gold mine. We can ignore them completely in fact, and still we are left with a mysterious secret gold mine, said to be the richest gold mine ever found, well hidden by the Dutchman, Jacob Waltz. He had no stone maps, and still got to his mine alright. I don't mean to offend you amigo, and if you don't want me along on your next expedition that is okay too I won't hold a grudge.

So, unless you can show us something in the way of a document indicating Church ownership of some mine in some part of the Superstitions, and-or some document recording a Peralta land grant or mineral concession in the same mountains, they are not necessary to the topic of the Lost Dutchman mine and I remain un-convinced that either case is true.
Oroblanco

PS - I strongly suggest that you get a copy of The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, for anyone who seriously wants to search for the Lost Dutchman mine. While it may not be the "only" source available (there are dozens and dozens of books on the LDM) it is the only one written by someone who actually interviewed Waltz's friends.

i will not post prof and give my hard work away .. you got this all wrong .. i am not looking for the LDM ... i found what i was looking for the Ma mine ..if i posted prof it would give the location out and thats not going to happen till i have a legal claim ..
i dont want to make my self look like a fool any more then any of you do ..

but in this case until i have the ore samples and get the claim legal .. everyone will have to wait ..i am hikeing and training , 3 miles a day at 110 -115 temps in the hotest part of the day .. i dont take this lightly at all
i am lefting weights a 1/2 hour day and .. i will be ready when its time ...


i fully agree with what you said and i under stand what your saysing

but fact is .. i know what i have found no one else dose .. i just say you bit on the long shot and most of the time you lose your money but there is a few times when the long shot beats the odds and you get rich ...i can lay some clues on the table that will stop everyone in their tracks ... not made up guess work .. real direct facts ... things no one else knows ...

if i put what i know on the table i think grown men would cry like babys ...


i think if i put it on the top at the redenzous . every person that could walk would start walking up the mt with me ...

thats how sure i am ...

i will go to my grave telling you all that waltz was highgradeing the Ma mine and i can out right prove it ... if any thing happends to me i have made sure the Ma will never be lost again ..legaly ..

if so many have looked and so many beleive .. then help me find a way i can make the mine legal with out being the next vicitum ...

i dont want to risk my life any more then i have to at this point . i have found it and now i have to prove it with out getting my self killed

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Blindbowman wrote

Quote
it was writen in the killer mts by curt gentry

Did Mr Gentry interview Jacob Waltz? Or Reiney Petrasch? Or Julia Thomas? Or Dick Holmes? How about Jacob Starar? King Woolsey? No disrespect intended for Mr Gentry, but the sources closest to Jacob Waltz have never made any mention of any church involvement in the Lost Dutchman at all. The only published source on the Lost Dutchman written by a man who actually interviewed the people closest to Jacob Waltz is the book The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely. Everything else is a tertiary source, which means much more prone to error or even deliberate falsehoods. There are the Bark Notes, but even in these there are several versions and we don't know which may be correct; what I have seen does not disagree very much with Sims Ely's book version.]

Gentry writes on page 50 of "The Killer Mountains": [And Jacob Waltz himself frequently referred to his mine as being on a "Church Grant"]

I have it on very good authority that Gentry's book is mostly fiction. He does not supply a single source for Waltz's "Church Grant" (frequent) comments. I don't believe there is a reliable source for the "Church Grant" story.

Ely's book and the Bark Notes remain, at least for me, the closest thing to the truth about Jacob Waltz and his mine.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Roy,

[Blindbowman wrote

Quote
it was writen in the killer mts by curt gentry

Did Mr Gentry interview Jacob Waltz? Or Reiney Petrasch? Or Julia Thomas? Or Dick Holmes? How about Jacob Starar? King Woolsey? No disrespect intended for Mr Gentry, but the sources closest to Jacob Waltz have never made any mention of any church involvement in the Lost Dutchman at all. The only published source on the Lost Dutchman written by a man who actually interviewed the people closest to Jacob Waltz is the book The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely. Everything else is a tertiary source, which means much more prone to error or even deliberate falsehoods. There are the Bark Notes, but even in these there are several versions and we don't know which may be correct; what I have seen does not disagree very much with Sims Ely's book version.]

Gentry writes on page 50 of "The Killer Mountains": [And Jacob Waltz himself frequently referred to his mine as being on a "Church Grant"]

I have it on very good authority that Gentry's book is mostly fiction. He does not supply a single source for Waltz's "Church Grant" (frequent) comments. I don't believe there is a reliable source for the "Church Grant" story.

Ely's book and the Bark Notes remain, at least for me, the closest thing to the truth about Jacob Waltz and his mine.

Take care,

Joe

i would rather know where it is then all of what it could be ...lol

sorry CJ i agree with you about the killer mts , good reading but not a facts proven copy ...IMHO

so CJ how do i make a legal claim on this mine with out getting my self killed ...

yes it is the Ma mine ! how can i make the mine public with out loseing my claim on it ..you want to see the real LDM .. help me make it public ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Cactusjumper wrote

Quote
Personally, I am convinced this is the location of the LDM.

Well without a sample of the ore to compare with the specimens from Waltz, I remain un-convinced - sorry amigo but this is not the only catch on this site. The mines of that district are pretty much more silver producers than gold, and of a different type deposit than what Waltz's ore appears to be. Isn't this the same mine Feldman "fictionally" discovered and indicates as the LDM? Personally, it wouldn't make a big difference whether a rich gold mine is called the LDM or the black hole of Calcutta, and suspect that Mr Feldman feels very much the same. However until that elusive ore sample can be compared by a geologist - no cigar yet. You have indicated previously that an ore sample is not forthcoming, but it should be possible to find a piece either in the mine itself or on the waste dump nearby.]

My friend, you have seen pictures of the gold ore from the pit mine. Some pretty fair geologists have looked at that ore. I doubt that anyone will ever admit that it came from the pit mine, but.......Quien sabe? My guess is that if it is, it will be touted as coming from a legal mine.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Blindbowman wrote

i would rather know where it is then all of what it could be ...lol

sorry CJ i agree with you about the killer mts , good reading but not a facts proven copy ...IMHO

so CJ how do i make a legal claim on this mine with out getting my self killed ...

yes it is the Ma mine ! how can i make the mine public with out loseing my claim on it ..you want to see the real LDM .. help me make it public ...

You don't need to tell your exact location, in fact I don't want to know it; if you return there and find that someone has been highgrading, you can then know that it could not be me since I didn't know the location. Proof, you mention proof - well what about it? You say Waltz was highgrading from the "Ma" mine; how can this be proven? Do you have records from the 'Ma' mine, and an ore sample that can be matched to Waltz's gold ore, that would prove it conclusively?

You have said yourself, that you don't know what it is that you found; I believe that you did find something, and that you don't really know what it is - YET. I do wish you the very best of luck and look forward to you publishing (or making public in some way) your discoveries, whatever it may turn out to be.

Cactusjumper wrote

Gentry writes on page 50 of "The Killer Mountains": [And Jacob Waltz himself frequently referred to his mine as being on a "Church Grant"]

I have it on very good authority that Gentry's book is mostly fiction. He does not supply a single source for Waltz's "Church Grant" (frequent) comments. I don't believe there is a reliable source for the "Church Grant" story.

Ely's book and the Bark Notes remain, at least for me, the closest thing to the truth about Jacob Waltz and his mine.

Muchas gracias Joe, I don't own a copy of 'The Killer Mountains' but am in agreement 100% on Ely and Bark being the closest we can get to the original source. Too much fiction has been layered on top of the original story IMHO, which serves to mislead many otherwise intelligent people.

Cactusjumper also wrote

My friend, you have seen pictures of the gold ore from the pit mine. Some pretty fair geologists have looked at that ore.

I have little doubt that pit mine had ore, perhaps gold ore; you mention that geologists have looked at it - did they do a comparison with any specimen from Waltz? Thank you in advance. <I could be fooled on gold ore being a match, though to my eye it did look somewhat different I would sooner trust the experts for making a positive ID.>

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

Roy,

[Cactusjumper wrote

Quote
Personally, I am convinced this is the location of the LDM.

Well without a sample of the ore to compare with the specimens from Waltz, I remain un-convinced - sorry amigo but this is not the only catch on this site. The mines of that district are pretty much more silver producers than gold, and of a different type deposit than what Waltz's ore appears to be. Isn't this the same mine Feldman "fictionally" discovered and indicates as the LDM? Personally, it wouldn't make a big difference whether a rich gold mine is called the LDM or the black hole of Calcutta, and suspect that Mr Feldman feels very much the same. However until that elusive ore sample can be compared by a geologist - no cigar yet. You have indicated previously that an ore sample is not forthcoming, but it should be possible to find a piece either in the mine itself or on the waste dump nearby.]

My friend, you have seen pictures of the gold ore from the pit mine. Some pretty fair geologists have looked at that ore. I doubt that anyone will ever admit that it came from the pit mine, but.......Quien sabe? My guess is that if it is, it will be touted as coming from a legal mine.

Take care,

Joe

so if a few hunder people walked up to this mine it would be public and the ore sample could be walked back to the redenzous and assayed right there and then right ! yes or no ...?

 

[Blindbowman]

You don't need to tell your exact location, in fact I don't want to know it; if you return there and find that someone has been highgrading, you can then know that it could not be me since I didn't know the location. Proof, you mention proof - well what about it? You say Waltz was highgrading from the "Ma" mine; how can this be proven? Do you have records from the 'Ma' mine, and an ore sample that can be matched to Waltz's gold ore, that would prove it conclusively?

You have said yourself, that you don't know what it is that you found; I believe that you did find something, and that you don't really know what it is - YET. I do wish you the very best of luck and look forward to you publishing (or making public in some way) your discoveries, whatever it may turn out to be.

i can out right prove this is the ma mine that is shown on the peralta stones ... fact .
like i said there is only one LDM and there is no fakeing that .. i dont have to .. because it is the real LDM ..let it speak for it self ..i will take those odds ..

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Cactusjumper also wrote

Quote
"My friend, you have seen pictures of the gold ore from the pit mine. Some pretty fair geologists have looked at that ore."

I have little doubt that pit mine had ore, perhaps gold ore; you mention that geologists have looked at it - did they do a comparison with any specimen from Waltz? Thank you in advance. <I could be fooled on gold ore being a match, though to my eye it did look somewhat different I would sooner trust the experts for making a positive ID.>]

The answer to your question is yes they did.

I will give you the rest of the story at the Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Hey Oro Whats up. ok Can you prove the ore is the only way to solve the peralta maps. Can you prove the ore is the only way to prove the dutchman. Is there any ore at all any where in the superstitions. can you prove the maps and the location are fakes. Can you prove the ldm, or ore, or apache, or vanishings. or the fact that my locations been up for a year, and no one has shown one single pic up close of my location, muchless the ore. Can you prove that bluff spring mountain spring does not resemble a heart, a horse, and a priest. You dont have to prove it just say it. I really want to hear you say, no horse, no priest, no heart, in the sat pic. Can you prove god exists. Can you prove god does not exist. Can u prove you havent lived past lives. Can you prove your first middle and last name we all are curious. Can you really prove me wrong, or are you just trying to, and if so, whats you reasoning. All i did was solve a map. And you cant see it. Prove to me you cant see it. Can you prove that youve never played dumb in this forum. Can you prove your not playing lawyer. Can you prove the ore on display is jacob walz. can you prove that i did not find the Ldm. When Should I expect your Summons. Will you take the stand as a Wit! And if so please let my attorney contact you.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

[Cactusjumper also wrote

Quote
"My friend, you have seen pictures of the gold ore from the pit mine. Some pretty fair geologists have looked at that ore."


The answer to your question is yes they did.

I will give you the rest of the story at the Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

If it is an exact match, why not announce this fact to the world at large? It would save people from becoming lost and dead in the Superstitions if they knew that the mine is not lost but was all worked out years ago. To NOT announce such a finding is less than nice IMHO. The families of those whom have perished would likely take a very dim view indeed.

Blindbowman wrote

i can out right prove this is the ma mine that is shown on the peralta stones ... fact .

I still don't even see the name Peralta marked on those stones, nor any "IHS" nor "SJ" etc that will prove the stone maps have anything to do with Peraltas or Jesuits. I will repeat this, Waltz didn't have any such stone maps and he was able to go there and back; Jacob Weiser didn't mention any stone maps and his map was on hide not stone; Joe Deering never mentioned any stone maps, John Chuning never said a word about stone maps, I would have to dig to find our copy of Walt Gassler's notes but I don't think he mentioned any stone maps either. You don't need the stone maps to find the Lost Dutchman gold mine and I am not even convinced they relate to the Superstitions at all. There are other threads focused on the Peralta stones amigo, this thread is "How to find the Lost Dutchman mine" and unless someone can prove the stone maps are directly connected with the mine of Jacob Waltz & Weiser, I don't see any need to rely on them to find the LDM. They certainly have not helped anyone else find it, so far. In my opinion, Weiser's map is MUCH more relevant to finding the Lost Dutchman mine, or even the Perfil Mapa or Ruth's map - though without the written directions that go with Ruth's map, it is useless.

The Doc Walker- Weiser map, which was drawn from memory not the original

<http://www.ajpl.org/aj//museum/treasm54.gif>

<Perfil mapa, http://www.ajpl.org/aj//museum/treasm60.gif>

I would also point out that neither of these were carved in stone. Stone is a poor choice for a treasure map - it tends to rub in your pocket and if dropped can crack a toe.

Santa Fe NM wrote

Hey Oro Whats up. ok Can you prove the ore is the only way to solve the peralta maps. Can you prove the ore is the only way to prove the dutchman. Is there any ore at all any where in the superstitions. can you prove the maps and the location are fakes. Can you prove the ldm, or ore, or apache, or vanishings. or the fact that my locations been up for a year, and no one has shown one single pic up close of my location, muchless the ore. Can you prove that bluff spring mountain spring does not resemble a heart, a horse, and a priest. You dont have to prove it just say it. I really want to hear you say, no horse, no priest, no heart, in the sat pic. Can you prove god exists. Can you prove god does not exist. Can u prove you havent lived past lives. Can you prove your first middle and last name we all are curious. Can you really prove me wrong, or are you just trying to, and if so, whats you reasoning. All i did was solve a map. And you cant see it. Prove to me you cant see it. Can you prove that youve never played dumb in this forum. Can you prove your not playing lawyer. Can you prove the ore on display is jacob walz. can you prove that i did not find the Ldm. When Should I expect your Summons. Will you take the stand as a Wit! And if so please let my attorney contact you.

If you were courteous enough to break down your questions rather than post a barrage, I would take the time to try to give you an answer for each one. As it is, I will answer SOME.

1: <you wrote>

Can you prove the ore is the only way to solve the peralta maps

No - in fact there is nothing that indicates the Peralta maps have anything to do with the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz.

2: <you wrote>

Can you prove the ore is the only way to prove the dutchman

Yes.

3. <you wrote>

Is there any ore at all any where in the superstitions

Yes.

4. <you wrote>

can you prove the maps and the location are fakes

Four experts have published their opinions that the Peralta stones are modern.

5. <you wrote>

Can you prove the ldm, or ore, or apache, or vanishings. or the fact that my locations been up for a year, and no one has shown one single pic up close of my location, muchless the ore.

The LDM ore - yes; the vanishings, are a matter for the police; your locations have been online and no one has shown enough interest to risk life and limb to go look at what is almost certainly just an old prospect hole dug by earlier Dutch-hunters, I can't say as thousands of people hike in the Superstitions every year, someone may have and just didn't bother to tell you.

6. <you wrote>

Can you prove that bluff spring mountain spring does not resemble a heart, a horse, and a priest

What ever they may resemble is a matter of perspective, just as it is possible to see castles in the clouds - pareidoilia amigo.

7. <you wrote>

You dont have to prove it just say it. I really want to hear you say, no horse, no priest, no heart, in the sat pic.

While you can't literally "hear" me say this, yep I don't see any "horse" nor "priest" though there is a sort of "heart" shape, it is possible to see Jesus on a piece of toast if it happens to burn that way. This proves pretty much nothing. Which brings me to my next reply;

8. <you wrote>

Can you prove god exists.

Yes, but it is not a part of my particular job description; some clear night take a look up at the stars, if you can say that all just happened as a result of a series of accidents, then you can say that God does not exist.

9. <you wrote>

Can u prove you havent lived past lives

Quite the opposite, I have lived past lives, see my old posts here on T-net.

10. <you wrote>

Can you prove your first middle and last name we all are curious

Yes I sure can - what does that have to do with the Lost Dutchman mine? I fail to see the connection, as with several of your other questions.

11. <you wrote>

Can you really prove me wrong, or are you just trying to, and if so, whats you reasoning.

Unless you can show us that GOLD ORE, then YES anyone can prove you are just saying you found it. GOLD ORE amigo, it is a lost GOLD mine after all!

12. <you also wrote>

Can you prove that youve never played dumb in this forum. Can you prove your not playing lawyer. Can you prove the ore on display is jacob walz. can you prove that i did not find the Ldm. When Should I expect your Summons. Will you take the stand as a Wit! And if so please let my attorney contact you.

You can contact my lawyer, write me a PM for his address and phone number. As I am currently on Jury Duty, I can't take the stand as a "Wit" until after Sept 30th but would be more than happy to after that date. Your impertinent barrage of questions shows one thing very clearly John, that is you don't have the proof of what you claim to have found.

There is a short list of people here on Treasurenet, that I have a lot of trust in; you John, are on a different list - those I have NO trust in whatsoever. Your temper at anyone questioning your claims and your track record, should give anyone a red flag about you. Why so many questions John? Why bring the whole question of whether God exists into this? Is something troubling you, that a priest could help with? I can assure you, that I am NO priest nor reverend nor lawyer, of which you may well have great need.


Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Roy A. Decker - aka "Oroblanco" and yes you are certainly free and welcome to look me up.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Both of those maps a click or two back are in need of translation. First draw connecting lines around the outer points like a dot to dot puzzle. You have your first shape and more clues. Where to cut across.

 

[Ashton Page]

The stories are right there in front of you – they always have been. The problem is being able to separate the wheat from the chaff. Do that and you will be able to walk right to it – yes, there are enough “clues” in print and I am not the only person who says this.

Before you can even get to separating the wheat from the chaff, the FIRST thing you need to be able to do is understand what is relevant to the story at hand and what is not relevant to the story at hand. That means don’t get side-tracked by things like “go to first water” because after you go to first water, then you go to second water, then to the military trail. Therefore “First water” is irrelevant. What IS relevant is the Military Trail – get it?

Now – someone will undoubtedly respond “yeah but Waltz never said go to first water, that’s fiction”. And therein I rest my case. If you understand this, then you are on your way. If you don’t understand this, then you will be like everybody else – chasing your tail.

Best,
Ashton

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

One can't help but wonder how you learned so much in 6-7 months.

Is there a Total Emersion course in Lost Dutchman being offered at some university?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

Ouch......

 

[Ashton Page]

A 3.85 from MIT helps.

 

[Springfield]

A 3.85 from MIT helps.

You'll need at least a 4.25 from Oxford to qualify. Better go hit the books.

 

[Twisted Fork]

The mine was found back in the eighties, by an individual that today, is still frowned on by a large family of folks who think they are so whitesome and delightsome, that they think they are too good for their own selves much less anyone else. Most of them still have wet panties over being chased out of the area by a ghost that looks like Jesus. I look a bit like Jesus myself with my long hair and beard, but that is only an image. When I found the mine, there were no ghosts that I could tell so what's up with that? I was also a violent, long haired drug addicted alcoholic who quite school in the 12th grade out of boredom. Go figure.

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

"A 3.85 from MIT helps."

I have no doubts that it helps, but I doubt you could convert that 3.85 into the plans for a modern-day jet fighter.......in 6-7 months. In other words, despite what you might think, in the practical world, it has its limitations. My uncle dropped out of grade school and went on to work in the aircraft industry and made parts for the Bell X-2 from blocks of exotic metal.

Many of us out here in non-MIT land, don't really feel the inadequacies of only having 50 or 60 years of practical experience to lean on, as opposed to the obvious advantages of having a nice degree from a university. Some in academia do look down on that aspect of learning, but it's done wonders for a few people.......like Henry Ford, for example. Sometimes a 3.85 grade level only qualifies someone as an educated idiot. I don't think that applies to you, but you might want to take your foot off the gas here.

You might try telling us your own theories, before running our's down. The first question that comes to mind is: If you already know more than anyone here.......why are YOU here?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

The mine was found back in the eighties, by an individual that today, is still frowned on by a large family of folks who think they are so whitesome and delightsome, that they think they are too good for their own selves much less anyone else. Most of them still have wet panties over being chased out of the area by a ghost that looks like Jesus. I look a bit like Jesus myself with my long hair and beard, but that is only an image. When I found the mine, there were no ghosts that I could tell so what's up with that? I was also a violent, long haired drug addicted alcoholic who quite school in the 12th grade out of boredom. Go figure.

Still learning, thanks.
Oroblanco