How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[Oroblanco]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET Ashton!

Ditto to the words of our amigo Old Dog. I don't know the answer to your question - for undoubtedly, more than one person has identified what they believe to be the correct ridge. If Holmes had the right directions to find the mine, I have to suspect that he would have found it, yet despite so many years of searching he never did. Dick Holmes was known as a good tracker, experienced in the desert, etc and even trailed Waltz once. Something is not right in his directions, perhaps more than one thing.

I look forward to reading your ideas, thank you in advance - oh and welcome to the fruit-n-nut section of T-net, most of us here are viewed as a wee bit addled from too much sun etc.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

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[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

This ridge has more evidence for it being the location of Waltz's mine than any other ridge that has ever been mentioned:

Personally, I am convinced this is the location of the LDM.

Welcome to the topic,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Blindbowman]

not

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

This is the pit mine just below the ridge:

People claim that the mine is the Silver Chief, but it's a number of miles from that claim:

Many of the "clues" purported to have been give by Waltz can be found all around the mine.

Does anyone else have this kind of physical evidence for their wild claims? http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1122

Joe Ribaudo

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Cactus The Expert Claim Debunker Jumper Debunker Wrote: Does anyone else have this kind of physical evidence for their wild claims? Aaaahhheeemmm! """"The Wild Side of Geoarchaeology"""" Fingerprints of the Gods GEOGLYPHS

 

[Ashton Page]

Sincere thanks for all your answers.

Joe – very interesting, to say the least. That ridge is further east then where I’ve been searching. But it has enough merit to warrant investigation – just need cooler weather and I’ll be there.

All - Holmes is a puzzler. There many problems with the manuscript, not the least of which is the length and amount of detail contained in the death bed confession. I don’t see how anyone could remember that many details, having only heard it once and considering the charged atmosphere in which it was received (hope that makes sense).

The question is whether we have the “real” Holmes account or not. It gets deeper than that because if you read the “death bed confession” …….. well, it kinda sounds like Old Jake is having a bit of fun with Dick Holmes. Things like “there’s no one I’d rather see find it than you” just smacks of a con-line if I ever heard one. But that could have been inserted after the fact to justify accusations of Dick ending up with the ore from under Jake’s bed. Or it might have been put in there to justify a sense of entitlement by a later DH’er.

But the kicker that makes me want to look at Holmes despite all the issues with his manuscript is that Dick spent his entire life searching, as did his son, and now a friend of his son. Holmes must have known something beyond the local gossip which caused them to search for so long.

Old Dog – My theory rests on the premise that Waltz told Holmes how to find his MINE and Waltz told Julia how to find the CACHE. That’s why the two accounts don’t line up – because the cache is near the mine, but not right at the mine. Two different items, two different locations.

IF I am right, then the Holmes Ridge is the single most obvious indicator and the one that we should be looking for first. Assuming that the ridge is not fictional, that is. But let’s assume the ridge exists. The Holmes instructions don’t make sense (in a lot of places) but for this discussion we’re talking about just the ridge…..(paraphrased) “go up the ridge, look down into the canyon, come back down off the ridge and go into the canyon, then come back out of the canyon” -- woah! That’s a lot of backtracking. Doesn’t sound like real directions to me (because they’re not). Brownie plainly states he is looking for help in location the ridge…. NOT telling you how to find the mine.

In Sims Ely’s book, Waltz tells about himself and Weiser going over a ridge and spying on two men breaking up the ore – and that was within shooting distance of the top of the ridge (therefore, the mine would be high up) and this would be the same ridge that Holmes talks about in his manuscript…. Anyway, you get the picture of my line of thinking. The problem is:

WHERE is the ridge that Holmes talked about?

I have found a ridge that fits a couple of details, then another ridge that fits a few more (different details) but nowhere can I locate a ridge that is the “perfect fit”. Because of this, I am beginning to wonder if there is any validity in Holmes Manuscript at all.

If you read what was posted earlier in this topic, notice that following “the best place to start” - his list is conspicuously missing Holmes. I respect C.J.’s opinion and I am beginning to believe he may be right after all.

Best to all,

Ashton

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

""""I respect "C.J.’s opinion" and I am beginning to believe he may be right after all."""
CJ made it clear, very early when i first came into this forum, that he was of the opinion, that if he ever found the "lost dutchman" he would "never tell a soul." Which is of the same mind set that if anyone found it, he would never tell a soul. So his real purpose and agenda here is admited by "him". So if you are beginning to believe he may be right after all. Then I Agree "absolutely"

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

Thank you for the supportive words, but I want to make something very clear to everyone:

I did not take the pictures of this site. I have never been to the site. A very good friend of mine found the site, by design, after it had been worked out and left open.

We are certain who did the work, but have no real proof. The cache sites were also left open and are near the pit mine. Going to and returning from the mine can be done in one day.

Most of the information on this site can be seen on the LDM Forum link I posted earlier. While many people don't believe this is the LDM, a number of very knowledgeable people do.

I developed some supporting evidence on my own, but would never have known about this location if not for my friend. It's all a very interesting story.
The mine was worked over a three year period, working only the summer months. That information was gleaned from the trash left at the site and other evidence my friend found.

They worked the mine in 1997, 1998 and 1999, but they had located it much earlier than that. The pictures that I posted on the LDM Forum, alone, should be enough to arouse anyone's interest.

If your interested, you should read that entire thread, including the parts where I am called some choice names by some clueless children. No doubt you will notice that here as well.

If you have any questions, or would like to have a private conversation, I have no objection. As with all such private contacts, I will need your real name, phone number, address and email address. No exceptions are made, as I have had too many bad experiences on these forums. My information will be provided in return.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Blindbowman]

do your dating some where else ...lol ,, if you take your hand off his knee he may open up more to you ...lol
no one has worked the LDM in more then hunder years .. thats a out right fact ,,... after i get my permit i will prove that statement is true ..you just can not call rock hounding ,mining ...lol

CJ ted had no idea what was coded in the tayopa letter . so how could he have made the stones ,, ..?

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

"rock hounding" How Bout Rock Poaching

 

[Blindbowman]

"rock hounding" How Bout Rock Poaching

i dont know what planet your from but you should be careful saying something like that , i am trying to get a legal claim on the Ma .. i dont know what you found or where you found it ,, i dont want to know .. if you do not have a legal claim .. then get one ..

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Scott Wood Was The second Person Notified After My Best friend Jim Hatt was notified July 4th of 2009 last year. So thanks, but it was covered in the early begining which is really cool. If gold profits, or profits, of any type are gained, by "anyone" from my discovery, that is and would be fantastic, however that has obviously never been important to me, and has really not been my agenda, rather, as I have stated many times. John V. Kemm Quoted:
"This Is Not Just About Gold." This is not just about gold. This is about solving the lost dutchman and the peralta maps The gold would be great but solving the puzzle is the real treasure And even greater Sharing that Treasure with the entire world.

Thanks for your Advise "it is" in good intention. Sincerely John V. Kemm Give you freedom, give you fire, give you reason, take you higher
See the champions, take the field now, unify us, make us feel proud
In the streets our heads are lifting, as we lose our inhibition,
Celebration, its around us, every nations, all around us

Singing forever young, singing songs underneath that sun
Lets rejoice in the beautiful game,
And together at the end of the day.
We all say

When I get older I will be stronger
They’ll call me freedom, just like a wavin’ flag
When I get older I will be stronger
They’ll call me freedom, just like a wavin’ flag
So wave your flag, now wave your flag, now wave your flag
Now wave your flag (4x)

 

[Blindbowman]

has it dawned on you yet your mine is no where near my site ...lol .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Colorado Mine hunter: I must appologize to you. I just found your post of 7 Aug, 07, asking about geochemical prospecting. I have two old beat up smalll books. I can either send you the data by internet or physically by mail.

Alternatively, you can contact the University of Alaska and ask for the booklet "Introductory Prospectng and Mining by Leo Mark Anthony".

Again, I was not ignoring you

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Ashton Page]

CJ made it clear, very early when i first came into this forum, that he was of the opinion, that if he ever found the "lost dutchman" he would "never tell a soul." Which is of the same mind set that if anyone found it, he would never tell a soul. So his real purpose and agenda here is admited by "him". So if you are beginning to believe he may be right after all. Then I Agree "absolutely"

Fair enough. But Joe DID answer my question.

Often times it is not what someone says, it is what they do NOT say. I notice that C.J. left "Holmes" out of his list... and in that respect, Joe actually answered my question twice - get it?

To be honest, I wouldn’t expect anybody who actually found the LDM to tell me where it is. But they might be willing to drop clues from time to time……. Now that’s interesting, isn’t it?

Best to All,

Ashton

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Personally, I am convinced this is the location of the LDM.

Well without a sample of the ore to compare with the specimens from Waltz, I remain un-convinced - sorry amigo but this is not the only catch on this site. The mines of that district are pretty much more silver producers than gold, and of a different type deposit than what Waltz's ore appears to be. Isn't this the same mine Feldman "fictionally" discovered and indicates as the LDM? Personally, it wouldn't make a big difference whether a rich gold mine is called the LDM or the black hole of Calcutta, and suspect that Mr Feldman feels very much the same. However until that elusive ore sample can be compared by a geologist - no cigar yet. You have indicated previously that an ore sample is not forthcoming, but it should be possible to find a piece either in the mine itself or on the waste dump nearby.

Santa Fe NM wrote

Fingerprints of the Gods GEOGLYPHS

Are you saying that Jacob Waltz carved gigantic geoglyphs on the Earth, to mark his mine? That just doesn't make any sense. Think about it.

Ashton Page wrote

All - Holmes is a puzzler. There many problems with the manuscript, not the least of which is the length and amount of detail contained in the death bed confession. I don’t see how anyone could remember that many details, having only heard it once and considering the charged atmosphere in which it was received (hope that makes sense).

The question is whether we have the “real” Holmes account or not. It gets deeper than that because if you read the “death bed confession” …….. well, it kinda sounds like Old Jake is having a bit of fun with Dick Holmes. Things like “there’s no one I’d rather see find it than you” just smacks of a con-line if I ever heard one. But that could have been inserted after the fact to justify accusations of Dick ending up with the ore from under Jake’s bed. Or it might have been put in there to justify a sense of entitlement by a later DH’er.

But the kicker that makes me want to look at Holmes despite all the issues with his manuscript is that Dick spent his entire life searching, as did his son, and now a friend of his son. Holmes must have known something beyond the local gossip which caused them to search for so long.

There is reason to doubt the Holmes manuscript wholesale - for Brownie Holmes himself disowned it. It appears that the manuscript did not even originate with anyone in the Holmes family. There are falsehoods in it as well, that are demonstrable. I put no trust in it at all.

Blindbowman wrote

CJ ted had no idea what was coded in the tayopa letter . so how could he have made the stones ,, ..?

Did Jacob Waltz ever state that he made or used any stone maps to find or return to his mine? There are other threads focused on the Peralta Stones, but as far as I know Jacob Waltz nor his partner Weiser ever mentioned any kind of stone maps at all. In fact Weiser's map was on hide, not stone.

Santa Fe NM wrote

"rock hounding" How Bout Rock Poaching

How do you "poach" a rock? Do you drop it in boiling water? Learn the language of prospecting if you are going to hunt for lost mines amigo - terms like claim jumping, highgrading, sniping (and I don't mean firing a rifle at someone from concealment) etc; "poaching" really relates to HUNTING GAME or a method of cooking eggs, not rockhounding or gold mining.

Santa Fe NM also wrote

Scott Wood Was The second Person Notified After My Best friend Jim Hatt was notified July 4th of 2009 last year. So thanks, but it was covered in the early begining which is really cool. If gold profits, or profits, of any type are gained, by "anyone" from my discovery, that is and would be fantastic, however that has obviously never been important to me, and has really not been my agenda, rather, as I have stated many times. John V. Kemm Quoted:
"This Is Not Just About Gold." This is not just about gold. This is about solving the lost dutchman and the peralta maps The gold would be great but solving the puzzle is the real treasure And even greater Sharing that Treasure with the entire world.

Thanks for your Advise "it is" in good intention. Sincerely John V. Kemm

I see that Jim Hatt you list as your best friend? Does he feel the same way about you? I have to respectfully disagree on part of what you said also, this topic is not about the Peralta stones, as mentioned above, there are other threads focused on them. Try this one;
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41448.0.html
Waltz never mentioned any stone maps, and I see no evidence that he even knew they existed. Therefore, he was able to locate the mine and go to it, and return from it, without ever expending a single moment of time with any kind of stone map. They are NOT necessary to find the Lost Dutchman amigo, sorry!

Ashton Page also wrote

To be honest, I wouldn’t expect anybody who actually found the LDM to tell me where it is. But they might be willing to drop clues from time to time……. Now that’s interesting, isn’t it?

Well several people here have claimed to have found the LDM, though without a single flake of gold it appears which is pretty odd since it was a gold mine after all. I keep hoping that someone will come up with a matching specimen of that gold ore, but so far despite numerous claims, NO GOLD. I don't know why that is, but there we have it.
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

OR :Blindbowman wrote

Quote
CJ ted had no idea what was coded in the tayopa letter . so how could he have made the stones ,, ..?

Did Jacob Waltz ever state that he made or used any stone maps to find or return to his mine? There are other threads focused on the Peralta Stones, but as far as I know Jacob Waltz nor his partner Weiser ever mentioned any kind of stone maps at all. In fact Weiser's map was on hide, not stone.

BB: no but waltz did say his mine was a church grant ...and no as i stated before . i beleive waltz took the mine ...he never found it .. he took it ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote

BB: no but waltz did say his mine was a church grant ...and no as i stated before . i beleive waltz took the mine ...he never found it .. he took it ...

To whom did Waltz make this statement? Where can I find it recorded? I have not run across any statement where Waltz claims the mine was ever a "church grant". The two common versions say the mine was Peraltas, not church-owned, the third un-common version has Waltz locate the mine on his own, no Peraltas OR church involved. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote

BB: no but waltz did say his mine was a church grant ...and no as i stated before . i beleive waltz took the mine ...he never found it .. he took it ...

To whom did Waltz make this statement? Where can I find it recorded? I have not run across any statement where Waltz claims the mine was ever a "church grant". The two common versions say the mine was Peraltas, not church-owned, the third un-common version has Waltz locate the mine on his own, no Peraltas OR church involved. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

it was writen in the killer mts by curt gentry , i read the book about 30 times , from what i know i have to sau i totally beleive he shot 3 peralta and took the mine from them .. i am going to get a cup of coffie be here for a nother hour or so ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote

it was writen in the killer mts by curt gentry

Did Mr Gentry interview Jacob Waltz? Or Reiney Petrasch? Or Julia Thomas? Or Dick Holmes? How about Jacob Starar? King Woolsey? No disrespect intended for Mr Gentry, but the sources closest to Jacob Waltz have never made any mention of any church involvement in the Lost Dutchman at all. The only published source on the Lost Dutchman written by a man who actually interviewed the people closest to Jacob Waltz is the book The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely. Everything else is a tertiary source, which means much more prone to error or even deliberate falsehoods. There are the Bark Notes, but even in these there are several versions and we don't know which may be correct; what I have seen does not disagree very much with Sims Ely's book version.

I have tried to raise a point for you to consider amigo, that any gold mine has to be discovered in order to become a mine in the first place; with the Peralta version we don't have anyone actually discover the mine! I haven't seen any convincing evidence (or document) that any Jesuits or Franciscans were ever active in the Superstitions either, or for that matter whether they even set foot in them. The "mountains of foam" is the name they used, a place to be avoided for the danger of the hostile Apaches.

When you try to tie in the Jesuits, Tayopa etc into the Superstitions then I wish to see the evidence to back up those theories and you have not provided it. I am still waiting to see proof that any Peralta ever had any kind of land grant, mining concession etc for the Superstitions either. These stories may be interesting and entertaining amigo but they are not absolutely necessary to the core of Jacob Waltz's gold mine. We can ignore them completely in fact, and still we are left with a mysterious secret gold mine, said to be the richest gold mine ever found, well hidden by the Dutchman, Jacob Waltz. He had no stone maps, and still got to his mine alright. I don't mean to offend you amigo, and if you don't want me along on your next expedition that is okay too I won't hold a grudge.

So, unless you can show us something in the way of a document indicating Church ownership of some mine in some part of the Superstitions, and-or some document recording a Peralta land grant or mineral concession in the same mountains, they are not necessary to the topic of the Lost Dutchman mine and I remain un-convinced that either case is true.
Oroblanco

PS - I strongly suggest that you get a copy of The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, for anyone who seriously wants to search for the Lost Dutchman mine. While it may not be the "only" source available (there are dozens and dozens of books on the LDM) it is the only one written by someone who actually interviewed Waltz's friends.