How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[Old Dog]

Oro,

To find the Dutchman, Tall order.
First, I would find as much "credible information as possible.
This would give a general location.
Second,I would throw all the rest of the clues out and start panning ALL the washes and gullies, systematically until One led me to the Gulch that was THE ONE.

I adopted this Idea from listening to a seasoned fellow speak about the LDM and his theories on the subject,

It is about the best Idea I have ever heard on the subject.
Wish I had thought of it.

OD

 

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[Old Dog]

Hi Randy,

If the gold trickles out. It will still get you closer than anyone else has been in 100 years.

Thom

 

[gollum]

Hi Randy,

If the gold trickles out. It will still get you closer than anyone else has been in 100 years.

Thom

Not necessarily. It will get you closer to A vein of gold, but not necessarily the LDM. For what most think is the LDM is a pit mine. Completely covered over, and not likely to erode off any more placer nuggets. The way to tell, would be to compare what gold you do find to the spectrograph of the Waltz Ore that was made into jewelry (a spectrograph was made by Thomas Glover for his book "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz" If it matches...BINGO!

Best,

Mike

 

[Old Dog]

Thanks Mike,

That's useful info.

Much appreciated.

Thom

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,

Thom you have hit upon the same method I would use, that is the same method used by Waltz according to sources in Florence, which is at variance with the version(s) we get from sources in Phoenix/Apache Junction region.

The reasons I still think this method is the best are several. For one thing, the eroded particles of gold would still be in the ground "downstream" of the lode, as no miner has ever managed to remove ALL of this type of particle - this would be nearly impossible. There is no reason to believe that the lode is "worked out" since, regardless of the numerous claims made, it appears that no one has ever worked the mine since Waltz left it, and in his own words there was "...enough gold showing to make millionaires out of twenty men remaining". That with gold at the old $20.67 per ounce rate.

Djui wrote:

If you find a lot of gold in a canyon and try to follow it, eventually it will trickle out and you won't be able to find the source

Following up the gold "float" in the canyons would be a tedious and time consuming task, but the moment you found NO more gold float particles, you know that you have just passed the ore vein! The state of California published a very good little pamphlet on how to prospect for gold back when Reagan was governor, and this included the methods of locating a buried lode (ore vein) - by the old "post-holing" method. If I can find my copy I will try to scan it and post it here. It is slow and time consuming, but it works!

Think of this another way - suppose you had a lost mine in a known region, of a size similar to the Superstition mountains, but had almost NO clues as to where to look. How would you proceed to search it out? By the old tried-and-true prospecting methods, with the advantage of knowing that sooner or later you WILL find it, since the area is limited in size. Today we have the benefit of satellite and aerial photography, as well as sensitive electronic equipment (metal detectors) so it only makes sense to use every "tool in the chest" to make the task easier.

The "clues" to find the mine of Jacob Waltz are so numerous it is almost ridiculous, and IN MY OPINION is partially due to the fact there are several mines in the region, all rich in gold, but with different ores - hence the seeming confusion and contradiction we find if we read and compare the numerous "clues". Since it is not possible at this date to be certain that ALL of the clues are either true OR false, it seems best (again just my opinion) to simply ignore them all, and hunt down the ore vein using tried and true methods - and AFTER the vein is located, it might then be possible to compare the landmarks etc around it and see just how many of the "clues" we are in possession of were actually true and/or correct.

The other methods which rely on interpreting some or all of the "clues" have been tried literally thousands upon thousands of times, from the death of Waltz to today, without luck. This little fact alone is enough (in my opinion) to look at other methods to locate the vein, rather than waste precious time and resources chasing down clues which have not been helpful to others in the past, and doubtless some of our predecessors were as good or better than I am at finding things. However to anyone and everyone who chooses to try locating the mine by use of the many "clues" and/or maps, I wish you good luck and good hunting, and have no doubt that whether you locate the mine or not, you will see some gorgeous country and get good exercise.

The US government did have a single test which indicated the presence of a large gold deposit in the Superstitions, the "Mercury Vapor test" of which I have little knowledge as to how this works. I have read the report, and the report added that such deposit might be "deeply buried" - which MIGHT coincide with the speculation of some Dutch-hunters that Waltz's gold mine was of the rare "chimney" type, a small shoot of ore that came near to the surface from a much larger ore body that is deeply embedded. One known example of these "chimney" type deposits is also in Arizona, the famous Rich Hill near Stanton, and this chimney produced a phenomenal amount of gold. On the other hand, several other government tests and studies done on the Superstition mountains did not indicate any large deposit(s) of gold in the range.

Of course what we refer to as the "Superstition mountains" today is a much smaller region than how the name has been used in years past, for example the Goldfield region was considered part of the Superstitions in the time of Waltz.

Thank you all for the replies, I look forward to reading more - after all, we all have different ideas ranging from it is a wild goose chase to it is a cinch; all methods are interesting to me.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

.and remember one more thing. It was a statement made by Jacob Waltz himself, "That my mine is in a place where no prospector would look."

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

The method you are talking about works, in this way:

You take a shovel of dirt and pan it out as you work your way up.....whatever. You count the grains of gold in each pan. As you approach the area below the lode, the count will increase. You continue upstream and count the grains as they decrease. You do the same process over, removing the first hole where you found gold in your pan, and the last one. You repeat the process over and over as you work your way up the hill or mountainside. No shortcuts. The top of your pyramid will contain the source of the gold below.

That's how I was taught when Hector was a pup.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Correct CJ - that is the way I was taught as well. One thing I did not mention however is that your panning of these samples has to be very careful, so as not to lose a single color - for unlike hunting down a rich placer, you are hunting for a lode deposit which may well not have produced a rich placer or much float for that matter. Finding a single color would be enough to keep looking, and not finding any colors would still require taking a few more samples just to be sure that you did not miss it.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Yes indeed......No shortcuts, and pay attention. That mine is hard to find.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

You know, Mike mentioned flying over the range, and even though that was tongue-in-cheek, the idea of simply flying over the Superstitions at low altitude, as in a helicopter, ultralight or even a hot air balloon might be very helpful. I have never flown over the Supers, and have been told they are dangerous at low altitudes with many cross-currents and downdrafts, but it seems logical that just flying around and examining the ground might be helpful. At a minimum, one could see most all the trails, including some that are not too visible at ground level.

CJ you have flown over the Supers in a helicopter, was it not helpful to you to have that "birds' eye view"? I have always thought that the old Lost Six Shooter mine is one that should be able to find simply by flying around the area at low altitudes, but having a good aerial view and seeing it with your own eyes seems like it would be helpful IMHO. I know there are aerial photos and satellite as well, but these are 2-D and limited in usefulness because of that.

Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Roy,
the method you and Joe discribed is the way I was taught also. But there is no worry for anyone YET, LOL as I am In CO and a long time getting to a Lost duchman search.

Thanks for the thread.
Nice not having the counter productive efforts of other influences.

OD

 

[Colorado Mine Hunter]

Great thread, ORO.

Like Old Dog, I am out here in Colorado and can’t practice what I preach, but, I would (and will, if I ever get out there, and if it is permitted) apply a methodology very similar to what is being discussed here.

First, it seems to me that some of the older ‘Peralta’ maps may very well be authentic and relatively accurate. They seem to indicate clearly that the mine(s) lie within what we currently identify as the Superstitions. Based upon that, I would first sample just upstream in the mouth of each of the canyons from Fish Creek down to La Barge/Tortilla to see which one actually has any placer gold. If none did, I would go a little farther up the canyon and sample again, since the Peraltas reportedly had some fairly extensive placer operations in that area and may have cleaned it up pretty well (though succeeding years of storms should have washed more virgin flakes down from up above after the Peraltas ceased operations).

Once ‘color’ is detected, I would go to the mouth of each tributary arroyo/watercourse in that canyon and sample just up from the mouth of that arroyo until I identified the right arroyo that contained placer. Following up that arroyo, I would sample at long intervals until the uppermost sample was devoid of any gold. Then I’d go in between the upper two sample holes and sample at narrower intervals until I could tell at what elevation the vein must be (by now, if I hadn’t already had a heart attack from excitement, I would probably see that the gold at this upper level should be getting a bit more coarse, as it hasn’t gone far from its source).

Then I would sample laterally just below that elevation to determine the lateral extent of any color. If one of your sample holes showed fairly coarse nuggets you would know that you were very close to an underground vein. By centering on the lateral extents and knowing that the gold should be coming off the vein in a fan shape I would go to the centroid of the field I had plotted and sink a trench to bedrock up slope from the last good color until I intersected the vein (or fell into the covered shaft of a mine).

All this is a mute point however, because is it not true that one cannot dig holes in the wilderness area? I would wonder if this is true even in the bottoms of arroyos where the first decent storm would wash away any trace that a hole had been dug? Good prospectors always fill in the prospect holes they dig, so I don’t see how there could be any harm in that. Does anyone have first hand knowledge about what is allowed?

Colorado Mine Hunter

 

[cactusjumper]

CMH,

We are not the first ones to think of using this method to locate the correct (maybe) canyon leading to the LDM. It was done by many of the old Dutch Hunters, back when digging a small hole was legal.

I would opt' for a good metal detector, which can give you the information you are seeking, without breaking any laws. Easier on us old guys as well.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Entirely possible.

When I read that statement (if he did ever say it), I still get the feeling he meant that if a prospector happened to be riding through the area where his mine was, he wouldn't slow down or get off his horse, or if a prospector (who would know what to look for) was trying to find his mine using known prospecting techniques, he would never find it.

But who knows for sure if he even said it? It does make for a good story anyway!

best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Peeps: sheesh, just use a small auger and do a simple geochemical test. Practically no intrusive digging, and in comparison with "dry"? panning, infinitely more accurate and quicker. -- plus, most important for me, LESS work.

As for being in an area "where no prospector would look", this tends to verify that it is not in a a normal mineralized zone, but in a vertical faulting. This is precisely why Tayopa was never knowingly found until I came along and cracked the problem. It is located in the middle of a barren Basalt zone. No competent prospector of mining company geologist would think of looking there heheheh.

Don Jose de La Mancha y Tayopa

 

[Colorado Mine Hunter]

Don Jose,
Could you tell us more about the geochemical test that you mentioned above? I am not familiar with it and would definitely be interested to learn more about it. I have two prospects here in Colorado that such a localization test would be very helpful on.

Colorado Mine Hunter

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

You are, pretty much, on the money here. The LDM is likely just a rich surface deposit. It came into the vertical portion at about 80' and ran for a relatively short distance on the horizontal. Rich as all get out, but no depth. Sounds a lot like the Bully Bueno Mine.

As for it being in a "mineralized" area, I wouldn't bet the farm on there being no other mines in the area. That does not mean they must be gold mines.

Many prospectors with extensive mining experience have searched for the LDM. In that respect, the (alleged) quote from Waltz......appears to have held true.

I have recently been queried about what I know about events in the Superstitions and related information. That person has, so far, not supplied me with his personal information, so what I do, or do not know won't be forthcoming.

At this time it's the history of the mystery that continues to interest me. Some of that history has been written, but the details probably never will be.

Stumbling into the pit has often been described as to how someone will find the LDM. The truth that may be in that statement, is astounding.

The methods you suggest for finding the LDM have very little chance of a positive outcome.
They have been employed many, many times and in every nook and cranny in the Superstitions.....without known success.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO JOE: I agree, which is precisely why I will stay south of the Border for the foreseeable future. But yes, while the geo chemical test is simple, but I personally doubt that it has been used in the Superstit since most of the older prospectors were / are of the dig and pan (wet or dry) school..

As for the vein structure, I am referring to that fact that at Tayopa they can -----------------------------(censored) ---------------------------------deep.

don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Colorado Mine Hunter wrote:

I would first sample just upstream in the mouth of each of the canyons from Fish Creek down to La Barge/Tortilla to see which one actually has any placer gold.

Well CMH you have a good starting point, as you can pan gold in Fish Creek, small flakes and colors anyway. I hope you will be able to put your plan into action some day.

Cactusjumper wrote:

The LDM is likely just a rich surface deposit. It came into the vertical portion at about 80' and ran for a relatively short distance on the horizontal. Rich as all get out, but no depth. Sounds a lot like the Bully Bueno Mine.

Joe I see that you mentioned that the LDM is "likely" a shallow but rich surface deposit, which is what some folks accused Waltz of having found while he was alive and selling gold; for his own part, Waltz adamantly denied this theory, and made that famous statement about there being "enough gold showing in the mine to make millionaires out of twenty men". According to Milton Rose, he not only found the Lost Dutchman mine, up near Four Peaks incidentally, but mined it out in its' entirety, taking out something like $30,000 in gold and the vein was just a pocket, by his words. So if we are to believe Mr Rose, he found the LDM and removed all the gold so there is nothing left for anyone to find.

Small but rich pockets do exist and they are the small-time prospectors' dream, (I knew someone who hit one of these pockets, a rather famous person in our circle now deceased) but other than the expressed opinions of people who had never seen the mine of Jacob Waltz, there is no reason to believe that what he had was a small pocket or surficial deposit. Unless of course we take the words of Milton Rose as gospel, in which case the point is moot and everyone who looks for the LDM has zero chance of finding anything but an empty hole. The trouble is, there are quite a number of empty holes in the Superstitions, none made by Waltz but created by the Dutch-hunters who came after him - and one tunnel ran for over 150 feet without a single piece of timbering, so some of these are pretty danged dangerous without any gold at all. Unfortunately more than one Dutch-hunter has found one of these old workings and concluded that this MUST be the mine of the Dutchman, without finding a single bit of ore to make the claim believable. One could as easily make the claim that almost any gold mine we are unable to enter to confirm or deny, is and was nothing but a small surficial pocket, it may be comforting to someone who does not care to hunt for the mine but really is unfounded speculation. If it were just a small pocket, why on earth would Waltz have NOT said so much, which would have helped to keep the bushwhackers, trailers and claim-jumpers from bothering with him at all?

I would also take exception to the claim that the old-timer Dutch-hunters used good old prospecting methods to try to find the mine, and can give you a few examples. Sims Ely and Jim Bark were no prospectors, and even confuted an ancient dry-washing placer mining technique (winnowing) with lode mining - many of the early Dutch-hunters were NO prospectors OR miners in any way, just look at Celeste Jones, Julia Thomas, Reiney Petrasch, and many others - these folks had no clue how to locate a mineral deposit and many relied on the "clues" or maps to try to find it. So simply because they were "old timers" certainly does NOT make them expert prospectors or miners. There are exceptions of course, but a good number of the old-timers were very much treasure hunters without a clue how to actually locate gold in the ground.

Thanks for the replies friends, I really do enjoy reading others ideas about how to find this famous mine whether it is a method I would attempt or not. Sometimes a different approach pays off.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Greetings,

Colorado Mine Hunter wrote:

I would first sample just upstream in the mouth of each of the canyons from Fish Creek down to La Barge/Tortilla to see which one actually has any placer gold.

Well CMH you have a good starting point, as you can pan gold in Fish Creek, small flakes and colors anyway. I hope you will be able to put your plan into action some day.

Cactusjumper wrote:

The LDM is likely just a rich surface deposit. It came into the vertical portion at about 80' and ran for a relatively short distance on the horizontal. Rich as all get out, but no depth. Sounds a lot like the Bully Bueno Mine.

Joe I see that you mentioned that the LDM is "likely" a shallow but rich surface deposit, which is what some folks accused Waltz of having found while he was alive and selling gold; for his own part, Waltz adamantly denied this theory, and made that famous statement about there being "enough gold showing in the mine to make millionaires out of twenty men". According to Milton Rose, he not only found the Lost Dutchman mine, up near Four Peaks incidentally, but mined it out in its' entirety, taking out something like $30,000 in gold and the vein was just a pocket, by his words. So if we are to believe Mr Rose, he found the LDM and removed all the gold so there is nothing left for anyone to find.

Small but rich pockets do exist and they are the small-time prospectors' dream, (I knew someone who hit one of these pockets, a rather famous person in our circle now deceased) but other than the expressed opinions of people who had never seen the mine of Jacob Waltz, there is no reason to believe that what he had was a small pocket or surficial deposit. Unless of course we take the words of Milton Rose as gospel, in which case the point is moot and everyone who looks for the LDM has zero chance of finding anything but an empty hole. The trouble is, there are quite a number of empty holes in the Superstitions, none made by Waltz but created by the Dutch-hunters who came after him - and one tunnel ran for over 150 feet without a single piece of timbering, so some of these are pretty danged dangerous without any gold at all. Unfortunately more than one Dutch-hunter has found one of these old workings and concluded that this MUST be the mine of the Dutchman, without finding a single bit of ore to make the claim believable. One could as easily make the claim that almost any gold mine we are unable to enter to confirm or deny, is and was nothing but a small surficial pocket, it may be comforting to someone who does not care to hunt for the mine but really is unfounded speculation. If it were just a small pocket, why on earth would Waltz have NOT said so much, which would have helped to keep the bushwhackers, trailers and claim-jumpers from bothering with him at all?

I would also take exception to the claim that the old-timer Dutch-hunters used good old prospecting methods to try to find the mine, and can give you a few examples. Sims Ely and Jim Bark were no prospectors, and even confuted an ancient dry-washing placer mining technique (winnowing) with lode mining - many of the early Dutch-hunters were NO prospectors OR miners in any way, just look at Celeste Jones, Julia Thomas, Reiney Petrasch, and many others - these folks had no clue how to locate a mineral deposit and many relied on the "clues" or maps to try to find it. So simply because they were "old timers" certainly does NOT make them expert prospectors or miners. There are exceptions of course, but a good number of the old-timers were very much treasure hunters without a clue how to actually locate gold in the ground.

Thanks for the replies friends, I really do enjoy reading others ideas about how to find this famous mine whether it is a method I would attempt or not. Sometimes a different approach pays off.

Oroblanco

i agree with almost everything you said but one statement . its only going to make one man rich and he can make 19 other men wealth as well if he could only find 19 honest people on earth ...