How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[cactusjumper]

EE,

That would be, pretty much, on the money. By a strange coincidence, ten miles east of Weaver's Needle is exactly where P.C. Bicknell said he would search for the LDM. By another strange coincidence, ten miles east of Weaver's Needle is exactly where the pit mine above Roger's Canyon is located.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Rawhide]

What's the coordinates again. I want to google it.

 

[EE THr]

Thanks, CJ.

It's also strange that Mr. Bicknell wrote in his newspaper article that it was within 2.5 miles of Weaver's needle, then changed his mind to 10 miles away.

Well, maybe not strange, if he was interested in finding it himself. Can't really blame him for altering what he thought was a good lead.

But too bad others thought what he said was true, and put so much into looking there. (R.I.P.) Of course, there is every likelyhood that things would have turned out pretty much the same for them, anyway.

A lot of people sure dug a lot of big holes out there, for it being, as the Forestry Services puts it, a non-mineralized area, though.

Thanks again, and whatever you do, have fun.

8)

 

[Nugget Hunter Smith]

Do I think the mine that Ron Feldman opened up with his treasure trove permit is the LDM? NO, I do not.

Has Ron claimed to have found the LDM? Yes on many occasions but has yet to provide any proof (ore).

Like many that claim to have found the LDM, not one of them can provide proof (ore matching to the ore under JW bed).

Having owned and operated the local prospecting store, Pro Mack South, for the past 13 years (closed last December due to lack of business, like many businesses in this great depression), I have had a chance to talk, one on one, with many people searching for the LDM. Some serious, most not. Most have confinded in me as they know I am trustworthy and will not reveal what was told to me by them. But that has giving me the oppurtunity to hear it all. I am not from Missouri (grew up in Iowa) but I do believe in showing me proof and not one of them have so far.

Do I believe the LDM exsist? Yes, I do as there is enough facts to say so. I beleive it was well hid by JW (as he stated) on his last trip and then the earthquake in the late 1890's completedly covered any chance of finding it.

Is it not interesting to note that most treasures of this proportion happen to be in Federal Wilderness or protected areas (Military Installations, National Parks, ect.) today?

Joe, I did take a look at that site. Jack is also in the business of selling books. Don't get me wrong they are good books with a lot of new/rehashed information like Ron's son, Jesse's book. But he has not found the LDM. They are out to sell books.

 

[Cubfan64]

NH Smith - thanks so much for the response. I didn't realize you were the owner of Pro Mack's in AJ - I believe I met you briefly at last year's Rendezous.

I'm really sorry to hear about your business closing - you're right there are a lot of small business owners falling on really hard times!

As far as showing ore to prove the finding of the LDM - it can be a double edged sword if you ask me. If you don't show ore and have it tested, nobody will believe you've found it - if you do provide that kind of proof, you run many risks, not the least of which is law enforcement action if you've done something wrong in obtaining that proof.

The pit mine is a good example - whoever dug that out was obviously breaking Federal laws in the Wilderness. Doesn't matter who it was or what they found, they were violating a law and would be subject to discipline. The same person(s) who dug in there, simply can't come forward and say "look what I foun" without giving up their identities.

Anyways - thanks for clarifying your thoughts NHSmith - I appreciate it.

Paul

 

[cactusjumper]

Do I think the mine that Ron Feldman opened up with his treasure trove permit is the LDM? NO, I do not.

Has Ron claimed to have found the LDM? Yes on many occasions but has yet to provide any proof (ore).

Like many that claim to have found the LDM, not one of them can provide proof (ore matching to the ore under JW bed).

Having owned and operated the local prospecting store, Pro Mack South, for the past 13 years (closed last December due to lack of business, like many businesses in this great depression), I have had a chance to talk, one on one, with many people searching for the LDM. Some serious, most not. Most have confinded in me as they know I am trustworthy and will not reveal what was told to me by them. But that has giving me the oppurtunity to hear it all. I am not from Missouri (grew up in Iowa) but I do believe in showing me proof and not one of them have so far.

Do I believe the LDM exsist? Yes, I do as there is enough facts to say so. I beleive it was well hid by JW (as he stated) on his last trip and then the earthquake in the late 1890's completedly covered any chance of finding it.

Is it not interesting to note that most treasures of this proportion happen to be in Federal Wilderness or protected areas (Military Installations, National Parks, ect.) today?

Joe, I did take a look at that site. Jack is also in the business of selling books. Don't get me wrong they are good books with a lot of new/rehashed information like Ron's son, Jesse's book. But he has not found the LDM. They are out to sell books.

Mike,

I believe you're mistaken about Ron not showing any ore. He is the source of the Kocher Ore. I have always had my doubts about the Kochera story......but there is that ore. If the ore did not really come from John Kochera, where did it come from?

Ron has told many people that he has found the LDM and few, like you, don't believe him. He has also told us that the ore that he has came from John Kochera........and everyone believes him. Well........almost everyone.

It's true that they're all out to sell books, but the bigger truth may be that they are all just dying to tell the real truth. Of all the people involved, Ron has always been the one who has had the most trouble keeping the story under his hat. That story is being told and most, not all, of it can be found in that thread on the LDM Forum. I know it's a long read, but you should go back and reread the entire thing.

Much like Ron's "Crooked Mountain", if you read it carefully and enough times, you will find the LDM.

I'm really sorry to hear about your business. There is an ongoing effort to reshape America, and the first ones to pay the price are small businesses like yours......and mine.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geez Joe, i thought that the XXX books, pictures, etc business was booming You mean there goes my bony steak?

Seriously, I hate to hear of small businesses going on hard times, sorry Nugget hunter, but if things go much further downhill, people will be heading back to the hills to work small Au & Ag claims, legally or not. and prospecting books tools, and maps will be in demand again. Hang in there.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

Is it not interesting to note that most treasures of this proportion happen to be in Federal Wilderness or protected areas (Military Installations, National Parks, ect.) today?

Remember what the "G.S." stands for, in U.S.G.S.

The pretty much know where all the goods are, you can count on that!

And, speaking of the Global dictatorship known as the United Nations, World Bank, World Wildlife Fund, and all of their other store fronts, look at what the government has turned over to them already.

And look at what they propose for the future, in the U.N. Agenda 21.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola compadres,
My apologies for having caused some of the confusion around Ron Feldman; by my saying he had obtained a Treasure Trove permit in the Superstitions Wilderness, and that he is among the few who ever had any gold to show, which were two separate and un-related events appears to have been read as if he brought out gold from the Treasure Trove dig which is not the case.

About the illegal mining activity at the "Pit" mine; there is a statute of limitations which runs (I am fairly sure on this) seven years for that type of offense, so that limit has expired and no one can be prosecuted for it now.

On the problem of obtaining a specimen of the ore for comparison and being prosecuted for it, two points. One, would be to take the argument that you are merely taking a single small piece of the ore, which as gold ore would qualify as a type of rock popularly collected by rockhounds and rockhounding is still legal in Wilderness Areas; the Superstitions have severe restrictions on rockhounding so it appears that the specimen would have to be of a size that would fit in between the treads of your hiking boots and may be too small for an accurate assay but might do for a mineral exam. What prevents the taking of photographs of the mineral vein? If it is exposed to the sky as so many satellite image experts keep insisting, nothing would prevent taking photos of the vein to show. This in itself would not "prove" that it was Waltz's mine, but would certainly help prove that a person had found an actual gold (or silver) mine and not just one of the many old barren prospect holes dug by earlier Dutch hunters.

Anyway my apologies for not having made that clear about Mr Feldman; while I am not convinced that the "Pit" mine is the LDM, a major point seems to be missed by a lot of folks. That is, whether it really is or was the Dutchman's mine is less important (to me) than the fact that despite it having been abandoned for so long and probably believed to be "all played out" it produced enough gold and-or silver to enrich those whom were willing to undertake the risks of mining in it. Quite a few very rich mines were discovered over the years by people whom were out searching for some famous lost mine or other, and while these were not what they sought in the first place, were rich strikes on their own account and often enough made the finders wealthy. By searching for a Lost Dutchman, even if utterly a failure at finding it, you are increasing your odds of finding something of great value in a quantum way. The nay-sayers who would have us all just stay home and put away all those dreams of castles in the clouds will never and can never find a rich gold vein because their own belief system prevents them from even attempting it.

Nugget Hunter Smith, I am sorry to hear about your closing up shop. My wife and I would not consider crossing Arizona without at least a stop at your shop to spend at least a few dollars even when we did not need anything in particular, just because we always enjoyed a visit there and wanted to support your business. Apache Junction loses something important with your closing, and now we have another reason to avoid that city altogether. I have to put at least some of the blame for this on the city council for their hostile attitude towards the winter visitors, with such local ordinances as that which makes it illegal for a visitor to camp within the city limits (even in Walmart parking lot, despite Walmart's policy nationwide of allowing customers to camp/park in their lots for up to three days) except in licensed campgrounds and the resulting high prices for motels have been driving away a certain amount of traveler/tourist business. The very high prices that fuel has been at have been disastrous for many other businesses that are dependent on the tourist trade, it is very hard felt in our area here for the Black Hills region derives a major part of the annual income from visitors.

I hope you will succeed in whatever you choose to pursue, thank you for your excellent service and courtesy which I witnessed personally. In fact I am sure that you will succeed, based on what little I know about you.

My apologies to all again for having caused such a misunderstanding, should have made those statements about Mr Feldman more clearly separate, and for the personal rant about over regulation and micromanagement by governments.
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Oro - as for me, you didn't cause any controversy with the Treasure Trove / Ron Feldman thoughts. I think most people visiting the forum are just not as clearly aware of what Mr. Feldman's permit was all about.

I wonder if what was found in the Pit Mine was something other than ore? Perhaps it was the location of a bullion cache?

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro - as for me, you didn't cause any controversy with the Treasure Trove / Ron Feldman thoughts. I think most people visiting the forum are just not as clearly aware of what Mr. Feldman's permit was all about.

I wonder if what was found in the Pit Mine was something other than ore? Perhaps it was the location of a bullion cache?

Paul,

That's a pretty good question, but I have heard from a number of sources that it was ore that came out of the pit mine. Beyond that, I recently had a number of my suspicions confirmed concerning who was involved in originally showing the way to that covered pit mine, and the fact that he had nothing to do with working the mine in the late 90's.

It may be that the legal limitatiions put the crime of working the pit mine out of any danger of prosecution, but I can see where there may be other reasons for the perp's not making the story public.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

This sounds like another case of our government obscurring history, under the guise of protecting it.

 

[cactusjumper]

EE,

I must confess that I have no idea what you are talking about here. Can you explain what you think the Governments roll is in this story?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

CJ---

Well, it appears that nobody wants to reveal what came out of where, or how much.

And that sounds like merely preventing most of it from being taken by the government.

Unless I missed something.

 

[cactusjumper]

EE,

The where is well known. What and how much is only known by those involved in the work of cleaning out that pit mine. So far, none of them are talking........that much.

I believe the information, for the most part, that I have provided is well known among Dutch Hunters.
There is some information that I developed, some very recent, on my own that is not widely known.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

EE is absolutely right (if for the wrong reason LOL). Simply look at what the NPS is writing about the Santa Cruz River Valley. They are trying to make people believe that there was only limited mining there, and even that was only for about five years.

Anyone that knows the history of the area knows different. The reason for the obfuscation is because Raul Grijalva is trying to make the whole area a Wilderness Preserve, and in so doing, he has to show that there is no potential for mineral mining business. Just like what was done in the Supers and in Death Valley, Ca.

Mike

 

[EE THr]

EE,

The where is well known. What and how much is only known by those involved in the work of cleaning out that pit mine. So far, none of them are talking........that much.

I believe the information, for the most part, that I have provided is well known among Dutch Hunters.
There is some information that I developed, some very recent, on my own that is not widely known.

Good luck,

Joe

My mistake, then. I thought you had mentioned that there was another site nearby that he worked, but didn't report, that was possibly the LDM. I guess I misread it.

 

[cactusjumper]

EE,

I don't believe I ever said/wrote that Ron worked the pit mine. I would say you are mistaken.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Also,

Ron did not claim to have found THE LDM. He claimed that "According to our sources, the Dutchman had a placer workings about (X miles) miles from his lode mine. We believe the one we are now excavating is the source of his placer gold." That is from Ron's HEAT Website.

....... and the reason for his filing for a Treasure Trove Permit is because there was supposed to have been a large amount of gold bullion taken from the main drift of his shaft by Sam Cox. There was supposed to have been a left drift that was never excavated, and was supposed to have contained more bullion.

Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Mike - I thought it was Sam Cox's son Ted who was involved in originally working with a few other guys to get to the bullion.

I think there's lots of confusion going on in the last couple dozen posts or so. I don't believe ANYONE claims that the H.E.A.T. dig site (that was allowed because of the treasure trove permit being issued) is/was the LDM mine.

However...

CJ and Nuggethunter Smith are both saying that Mr. Feldman has been heard to claim that he found the LDM.

Those two statements are completely unrelated to one another.