How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

You are correct on all counts.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[gollum]

Paul,

Not knowing Ron F. as I don't, I could not speak intelligently on anything he might have or have not said.

Actually, on another page of the HEAT Site it states:

The Lost Spanish Mine is believed to be one of the Peralta mines and one of the sources of Jacob Waltz's gold and the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, the most famous lost mine in the world.

So, whatever........................LOL

Mike

 

[EE THr]

CJ---

So who worked the mysterious pit mine, and where is it?

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

Not knowing Ron F. as I don't, I could not speak intelligently on anything he might have or have not said.

Actually, on another page of the HEAT Site it states:

The Lost Spanish Mine is believed to be one of the Peralta mines and one of the sources of Jacob Waltz's gold and the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, the most famous lost mine in the world.

So, whatever........................LOL

Mike

Mike,

You'll notice that I never stated that I personally had ever heard Mr. Feldman make the claim that he had found the LDM. While I've met him and spoken to him a few times, I can't say I've heard that claim, but I know other folks have.

EE Thr,

I don't know if the location of the pit mine is public knowledge or not, so I'll pass the buck on that one. I thought I had heard that the location had been all filled in with little or no trace left, so there's probably not even much to see anymore.

I personally haven't been to it yet, but it's on my list for this coming fall.

As to who worked it.... only those who were there and did it know for 100% certain. Anything else would be speculation imho.

 

[EE THr]

EE Thr,

I don't know if the location of the pit mine is public knowledge or not, so I'll pass the buck on that one. I thought I had heard that the location had been all filled in with little or no trace left, so there's probably not even much to see anymore.

I personally haven't been to it yet, but it's on my list for this coming fall.

As to who worked it.... only those who were there and did it know for 100% certain. Anything else would be speculation imho.

Well, thanks for that input. Now it's back full circle, to my original statememt!

Which was---

"CJ---

Well, it appears that nobody wants to reveal what came out of where, or how much.

And that sounds like merely preventing most of it from being taken by the government.

Unless I missed something."



Am I imagining things here or what?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Cubfan,

I'm pretty sure that quite a few people know where "the" pit mine is.

Personally - I think it is too big and too deep to be the LDM - but - there are a lot of folks who think it is "it".

For whomever goes up there - be prepared for lots of company - as there has been a lot of traffic there this past winter.

Beth

 

[Cubfan64]

EE Thr,

I don't know if the location of the pit mine is public knowledge or not, so I'll pass the buck on that one. I thought I had heard that the location had been all filled in with little or no trace left, so there's probably not even much to see anymore.

I personally haven't been to it yet, but it's on my list for this coming fall.

As to who worked it.... only those who were there and did it know for 100% certain. Anything else would be speculation imho.

Well, thanks for that input. Now it's back full circle, to my original statememt!

Which was---

"CJ---

Well, it appears that nobody wants to reveal what came out of where, or how much.

And that sounds like merely preventing most of it from being taken by the government.

Unless I missed something."



Am I imagining things here or what?

I know I didn't really answer a dang thing in my previous post to you, but here's my comment on your question...

I would say (and this is just my opinion) you have at least part of the equation correct.

There is also the fact that even if some statute of limitations expires for conviction or fines for any illegal digging going on in the Superstition Wilderness Area, the people involved may simply not want their names associated with any previous illegal activity.

Another thing to consider is that the surrounding area near the Superstitions relies at least to some extent on the "legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine" and the fact that it's never been found. Plenty of people hike, camp and explore the wilderness for the sake of the beauty alone, but there is most definitely an aura of mystery, legend and unknown gold mines that draws people to the area. If that were to disappear due to proving that the mine was found, even if it's just a small part (and I'm not so sure it's that small) of the local economy, it could hurt the local area financially and nobody would want to be a part of that happening.

Again - just my personal opinions.

Beth - I didn't realize the area the pit mine is/was in has been busy this past winter. Outside of "dutchman" afficianados, I wouldn't think many other folks would even know about it or even want to go off trail to check it out.

Guess I need to make sure it's a priority for this fall as I'd like to see the whole area before it gets trampled down

 

[EE THr]

...If that were to disappear due to proving that the mine was found, even if it's just a small part (and I'm not so sure it's that small) of the local economy, it could hurt the local area financially and nobody would want to be a part of that happening.

You have a good point there.

 

[cactusjumper]

EE,

As I said......The people who cleaned out that mine are the only ones who know what was in there.

The names of the people involved are well known in the Dutch Hunting community as well as the location of the pit mine.

Even so, I will not be naming them in any forum. The story has been discussed many times at the Rendezvous. No doubt it will come up again this year. If you are there, you will probably hear all about it.

Most of the details of the story have been discussed on the LDM Forum. I posted the link earlier. Most of those details have been (independently) confirmed to me by people I trust.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

EE,

As I said......The people who cleaned out that mine are the only ones who know what was in there.

The names of the people involved are well known in the Dutch Hunting community as well as the location of the pit mine.

Even so, I will not be naming them in any forum. The story has been discussed many times at the Rendezvous. No doubt it will come up again this year. If you are there, you will probably hear all about it.

Most of the details of the story have been discussed on the LDM Forum. I posted the link earlier. Most of those details have been (independently) confirmed to me by people I trust.

Take care,

Joe

Joe---

I fully understand.

I guess it was the wrong time and/or place to bring up the obscuring of history, in the manner in which I did.

Thanks,
Don

 

[Oroblanco]

EE,

As I said......The people who cleaned out that mine are the only ones who know what was in there.

The names of the people involved are well known in the Dutch Hunting community as well as the location of the pit mine.

Even so, I will not be naming them in any forum. The story has been discussed many times at the Rendezvous. No doubt it will come up again this year. If you are there, you will probably hear all about it.

Most of the details of the story have been discussed on the LDM Forum. I posted the link earlier. Most of those details have been (independently) confirmed to me by people I trust.

Take care,

Joe

Joe---

I fully understand.

I guess it was the wrong time and/or place to bring up the obscuring of history, in the manner in which I did.

Thanks,
Don

I think your previous post, quote

This sounds like another case of our government obscurring history, under the guise of protecting it.

- may have led to misunderstanding, as it appeared to imply a government effort to obscure under guise of protection, which is not the case with the pit mine. If you talk to the Forest Service, they seem to have an attitude quite different from "protecting" the Lost Dutchman, rather they seem to act as if they would rather there never was such a legend in the first place for all the nonsense and trouble that the legend has produced. Just my own perception of attitudes, which could be completely mistaken.

Oroblanco
<No sock coffee for Don Jose either! >

 

[EE THr]

Oro---

I get what you are saying. The Forest Service always claims that the Supers are not a mineral zone, either.

But what I actually meant was, that because of their protection of the area, specifically archaeological items, and the "no dig" rules, anyone who actually does find something historical may be reluctant to report it. So, the public in general will go without knowing the true history of whatever, even if it is uncovered, if the finders don't report it. And I can't say that I would blame anyone for not reporting it, under the circumstances, which I consider to be abuse of the liberties of U.S. Americans.

It seems that either nobody understood that, or it offended someone, or something else that I don't understand. Or maybe I'm just going nuts. I'm baffled by the weird reaction I got, that's all I know.

If you figure it out, let me know, OK?

 

[Springfield]

.... But what I actually meant was, that because of their protection of the area, specifically archaeological items, and the "no dig" rules, anyone who actually does find something historical may be reluctant to report it. So, the public in general will go without knowing the true history of whatever, even if it is uncovered, if the finders don't report it. And I can't say that I would blame anyone for not reporting it, under the circumstances, which I consider to be abuse of the liberties of U.S. Americans. ....

This is the reason so many searchers (treasure, artifacts, historical items) are constantly in stealth mode, whether anyone on this forum wishes to acknowledge the fact or not. The arguements pro and con are manifold, but when you boil it down, there's a reluctance among the curious to accept the control imposed on their activities. It's a trust issue, and as the empire continues its decline, Mr and Mrs JQ Average Citizen will notice its advancing sting on their tidy lives too. By the way, the LDM is not the only cache/artifact site that is off-limits to the curious. Most are, whether it be a wilderness area, a non-entry zone, a national site, a study area, or some other exclusion zone.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geeze ORO, and I did need that coffee, sniff

As for any conspiracy on keeping the public out of certain areas, frankly I don't think that it is to keep secrets and lost mines to themselves as such, But to protect THEIR land from the American public, which has proven time and again that they aren't 'house broken' yet. Look at the graffiti etc in every public area. In Az, at the rest stops they have literally stolen the plumbing and destroyed what they couldn't steal. I have seen bags of garbage, dirty diapers, etc. thrown on the ground, just a few meters from a trash can. and on.

If you are involved in protecting our national forests, parks or sites, it soon becomes your home and you resent or fight any thing that threatens it's beauty for you, especially the public, with reason.

So if you can't train the public to live like rational, clean, humans you look for ways to change the status of your area to help give you an edge, which they do.

In this case, I do not blame the gov't, but the public itself. How many of you have had the privilege of spending two or more days gong into the back country, only to find tons of garbage, rusty old tin cans, especially beer cans, etc at most good camping spots? It doesn't take many episodes such as this to sour you on the Public.

As a kiddie, I had the unique privilege of being able to backpack into the high sierras of Northern Calif trout fishing, 6 - 8000 ft. Many times there wouldn't be a sign that any human had ever been there, it was pristine. A month or two would go by with no human contact, today ? there are so many people, that you now need a permit, obtained at least 6 months in advance before trying to enter the same region.

Here in Mexico, when I first arrived, it was similar to stepping back into the old West of the late 1800's. There were no fences, roads, nor practically any people in the back country. it was almost complete freedom, and I loved it. Yes, there were bandidos and other unique adventures, such as finding and gazing on abandoned villages, mines, and ranches of the 1700 - 1800's. Most just as they had left them. Today almost where ever you wish to go, there are roads and new villages, sigh, my old west is fast disappearing.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Geeze ORO, and I did need that coffee, sniff

As for any conspiracy on keeping the public out of certain areas, frankly I don't think that it is to keep secrets and lost mines to themselves as such, But to protect THEIR land from the American public, which has proven time and again that they aren't 'house broken' yet. Look at the graffiti etc in every public area. In Az, at the rest stops they have literally stolen the plumbing and destroyed what they couldn't steal. I have seen bags of garbage, dirty diapers, etc. thrown on the ground, just a few meters from a trash can. and on.

If you are involved in protecting our national forests, parks or sites, it soon becomes your home and you resent or fight any thing that threatens it's beauty for you, especially the public, with reason.

So if you can't train the public to live like rational, clean, humans you look for ways to change the status of your area to help give you an edge, which they do.

In this case, I do not blame the gov't, but the public itself. How many of you have had the privilege of spending two or more days gong into the back country, only to find tons of garbage, rusty old tin cans, especially beer cans, etc at most good camping spots? It doesn't take many episodes such as this to sour you on the Public.

As a kiddie, I had the unique privilege of being able to backpack into the high sierras of Northern Calif trout fishing, 6 - 8000 ft. Many times there wouldn't be a sign that any human had ever been there, it was pristine. A month or two would go by with no human contact, today ? there are so many people, that you now need a permit, obtained at least 6 months in advance before trying to enter the same region.

Here in Mexico, when I first arrived, it was similar to stepping back into the old West of the late 1800's. There were no fences, roads, nor practically any people in the back country. it was almost complete freedom, and I loved it. Yes, there were bandidos and other unique adventures, such as finding and gazing on abandoned villages, mines, and ranches of the 1700 - 1800's. Most just as they had left them. Today almost where ever you wish to go, there are roads and new villages, sigh, my old west is fast disappearing.

Don Jose de La Mancha

RDT - I spent some time trying to put together a post this morning and couldn't find the words for what I wanted to say so deleted it. I just logged on and saw your post above and was very happy to see someone else was able to do what I couldn't .

I often try to put my feet in another person's shoes to try to see things from their point of view, and that's an excellent way to view the whole "treasure hunting in wilderness areas" issue.

Those folks (rangers, etc...) get paid to do a job, and I would hazard a guess that dealing with treasure hunter issues is FAR FAR down the line of duties they have to do. For the most part they are quite underpaid, overworked and understaffed to do most of what they are hired to do. It doesn't come as any surprise that most if not all of them wish the LDM legends never existed - if I were in their positions, I'd likely feel the same way.

Keep in mind also that prior to the Superstitions being off limits to motorized vehicles and new mining claims, there was a pretty good amount of craziness going on out there! Not to say that "stealth" activities aren't going on, but back in "the days" we know there was gunfire, folks setting off explosive charges in random areas of the mountains and other assorted looting and stuff going on - those are facts that can't be denied.

Perhaps there's a way treasure hunting can coexist legally within the constraints of government, but I don't think it's a priority. I don't know the specifics of how it works, but I know at least some European countries give someone who finds a treasure fair value for their finds when they are turned in - the government keeps the find, but the party who found it at least gets some re-imbursement and "good press." I doubt that will ever happen over here, but a compromise like that would probably go a long ways towards more cooperation.

Anyways - thanks for the post RDT - I liked it a lot.

 

[EE THr]

RDT---

You are right, mostly. Nobody wants to see a mess made of the great outdoors.

However, there are other ways to handle it, rather than taking away people's natural rights.

Many years ago, wherever you drove, you could see empty cans, bottles, and trash along the side of the road. Nowdays, you don't see that. What happened there? It was handled in a way that didn't restrict people from using the roads! While wilderness areas aren't the same as roads, there is a better way to handle things that what they are now doing!

The current restrictions on mineral and historic rights are downright illegal.

We are paying people very, very, good money to figure all this stuff out. The blanket outlawing and confiscation, is the "easy way out," and takes no thinking or intelligence at all. Got a problem? Simple, just outlaw it. And these government people are collecting salaries, great benefits, and retirement packages, for this? Hah! If were are paying them all this, I expect some kind of workable solutions for our money!

Same thing for criminal laws and cops, from the top on down. They just pick the easiest way to get their jobs done, with disregard for our rights, and collect their pay and overtime, plus benefits, plus fat retirements. Until people start saying "no," do what we are paying you for.

If a person finds something historical, then they should profit from that. How do we stop the wilderness from being torn up from unethical people trying to get rich quick, and messing it up? We pay people to work out something fair to solve those problems. That requires them to actually think, which most of them seem reluctant to do. That is totally unacceptable.

I would bet that you could give this problem to a class of 6th graders, and, given all the parameters, they could come up with a workable solution within a couple of months, and probably more like a couple of weeks! And within budget. I'm totally serious about that. Totally.



P.S. I'm not saying that government workers are somehow trying to keep the LDM or other historic and mineral sites for themselves. I'm saying that they are simply not bothering to think things through, and come up with a solution that's workable for anyone but themselves. The fact that they are handing land over to the Global Dictatorship known as the U.N., is another story, but not entirely.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Jose,

You hit the nail on the head.

It doesn't even have anything to do with "messing up the great outdoors" - It has to do with power - the government and their co-horts - ie:
Sierra Club, Nature's Conversancy and the like - was total control over "their" land.

You have hit on my biggest pet peeve - they use "saving" and "sensitive areas" and "environmentally important" and the like - to own our public
lands.

The 1872 mining law gives us the RIGHT - not the privilege - but the RIGHT to enter on public lands in the search of minerals. This is the REAL reason why they want to get rid of it. Its not because it is outdated - it is not because they need to change with the times - its because it is the
one thing - the one LAST thing, that keeps the public land in the public domain for our use. Once they dump that - we lose it all.

If you need any proof of the government wanting all the riches, too - one only has to look at Victorio Peak, and the entire mess that turned out to be. And now, someone has paid money to go look again - someone who is not even a relative to the Noss family - who, technically, still hold the rights - but, money talks. (and the government knows that anything there went into private pockets a long time ago).

We have been losing our rights, one right after the other - and we do nothing - in fact, we help - because everyone has something they don't think is right - so, its ok to make a law on that - trouble is, with all the millions of folks thinking one thing is ok, we end up with 20 million laws that restrict everything we do - from whether or not you can pat your kid on the butt, to what you can use your own home for, to what color you can paint it - to what time you have to turn your music off - to the government - federal, state and local, controlling every single little thing you do.

And, I bet I have hit on something that someone reading this has said - oh, well, I can understand that - which means now you know why everything is illegal -

If we do not take our public lands back - we will die out as a breed - and we will be at the mercy of other countries for one more thing - precious metals. We are already 98% indebted for the rare earths that you use for your computers and your magnets - which equate to certain motors, too. Pretty soon, we will only be able to be "servants" to the world - because they will control every speck of wealth - which will be the total and complete downfall of the US.

Beth

I'm assuming that at some point, a long time ago, someone thought they were doing something good - but that is NOT what is happening.

The government lies and cheats to take land - and, if you cannot use something, then it is effectively - taken away. Letting some people use it (the land) is not the same as everyone - the people - having public land.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cubber, I see that we do think alike, gracias one for that modified, cheap, stingy, self centered, sheep herder.



EE: For the LDM area alone, such as we have been discssing in here, just how many people would it take to keep the public in line and safe, and where would they get them, or with what?? Heck they can't even stop an occasional killing, or someone over stepping their personal safety limit, let alone destruction of valuable sites.

They establish reasonable rules for you to follow or to work on your theory, but, as is normal, they do require some 'reasonable' proof before they allow you to say 'blow Weavers needle up'. In fact, if they hadn't stepped in, it would be gone already.

Until the public shows some responsibility they 'will' be discriminated against. You yourself, would be at the head of the line complaining on policing the porcine members of the human race.

Just look at what unthinking people did to the the sphinx.

As for the UN, ugh don't get me started

Don Jose de La Mancha.

Beth, where is my coffee? That cheapskate, dirty sock making coffee, doggie pillowed hubby of yours wouldn't give me any.

 

[EE THr]

EE: For the LDM area alone, such as we have been discssing in here, just how many people would it take to keep the public in line and safe, and where would they get them, or with what?? Heck they can't even stop an occasional killing, or someone over stepping their personal safety limit, let alone destruction of valuable sites.

Who says it would take more people? Or more money? Like I mentioned, you don't see the trash dumped on the roadsides anymore, do you?

The wilderness is different than the roads, but there is a better way than restricting people from it. How should it be done?---Well, like I also said, they should be able to figure out something better if they even tried to. That's what their top people are getting paid very well for.

But, by all the signs of it, there are other intentions involved, rather than just their being too lazy to think of better ways.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

EVening EE: You posted -->you don't see the trash dumped on the roadsides anymore, do you?
***********
You certainly do, mostly inside of huge, black, plastic bags along side of the road, having been picked up by a crew.

Help me to bug the sheep herder for coffee my friend.

Don Jose de La Mancha