How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[Oroblanco]

EE THr wrote

Well, I am being honest when I say that I have no plans to visit the Supers. I might add that I have no plans to find the LDM, either. So what would you call that?

It may well be honest, up to a point. Just as it would be honest to say, (purely hypothetical here) "I know where there is X millions in treasure, but it is not convenient for me to pursue right now, nor do I have the ambition to pursue it" - in other words, can you honestly state, that if you were able to pursue your interest in the Supers without any effort beyond what you wished to expend, and finances, regulations etc were no stumbling blocks, you would still not do anything about it?

EE THr also wrote

I do have reason to believe that there is a consistency of indicators in the publicly available maps, as I have presented in another thread. But I also believe that these maps are legends, and qualify only as "mythical," as you mentioned. But then, who really knows for sure? I only know that it was fun doing it! I actually found more stuff that seemed to match-up, while I was posting those things, and added it as I went.

If you believe that you can walk away from the subject and never give it another thought, then you really are not being honest with us or yourself. As for the "Mythical" status of the Waltz gold mine, that is only as it is framed in USGS and USFS publications which suggests that is their official stance on it; there are no legal records of Waltz owning a mining claim in the Superstitions, and that is the level of proof that their experts generally insist on for classifying a mine as something other than "myth". Alternatively, photographs, early written documentation, ore samples and sales records etc would go a long way, and that route might work to prove that Waltz once had a mine in the Supers if someone were able to assemble such evidence. Just because in "official" eyes it may be mythical, does not mean that it doesn't exist.

There are patterns in the treasure maps, and they might actually lead to something - however they have been tried by many persons, many times and with but little successes. That is a big reason why I do not put much faith in treasure maps, which in no way reflects on anyone else or their own view of them.


Thank you for the interesting discussion. Good luck and good hunting to you EE THr, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[Rawhide]

My feelings is the mine is not where we think it is. I dont think Waltz knew where it was.

What leads you to believe that Waltz himself, the man with the gold beneath his deathbed and to which our sources all point, did not know where the mine was? I have to agree that the mine is almost certainly not where most seem to think it is, but would like to hear your theory. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Hi Oro,

A few months ago I took the critics to test and tried some of my theory's. Here is what I found.
For hundreds of years there has been mines. Most were open pits. These mines were dug by the ones before the Indians, lets call em toltec, I dont care what you call you em. Then the Native Americans. Then the Jesuit, Spanish, and Mexican's.

As the newcomers came into the area, they all upgraded these areas and made them their own. Gold is where its been found before.

I don't think I am wrong about the LDM. I need more info of the area. You can buy all the books you want. The only records that are worth squat is military and religious documents. The rest is tainted. I'm not saying a mine doesn't exist. Since I have not set foot in the Supers, nor do I subscribe to google earth for looking for mines. I would say the Stone Maps are your best bet. But you need a starting point, a vantage point, which no one makes reference too. So the stones arent worth much.

The trails are out there. There is still a lot to see. Im next door in New Mexico, and hope to see the Supers this fall. Im doing like a lot of you. Im going out every chance I can, and working the old trails. Seeing how it was done back then. Im a noob. You can pick holes in my statement all you want. But I know what I am finding, and cant wait to try it elsewhere. Im just beginning to train my eyes on what you old timers have been doing a while.

I think there is a lot of disinformation out there. It started with Waltz. It continues today. To have a list of everyone who reads these topics would shed some light on some things.

Now I believe it started with the Toltec, and when on from there. Its been a long time and a lot of the signs are gone. The last sign is one we are all missing. It will be in the mine. I dont know who will be the one to find the tea pot, or frying pan, but I know it might pay to figure out what Waltz was doing when he found the mine, as he said its not where you would look for a mine. That again could be misinformation.

I think we can agree its from a deep vein. I also believe the Indians may be aware of it, and it could be on a reservation. I dont believe its been found and worked out. Maybe buried, or covered up by nature, but the ore that was found was not high-graded by waltz from his former employers mine.

Id like to know what was in Waltz pack when he went out for his gold? Where his supplies were dropped off at? What his supplies consisted of? Does anyone really know how many days it was to and from his gold mine? Some say the mine is up high, which would fit several requirements, but again its guesswork.

No, I dont think the mine is in a logical place. I dont think panning a stream is going to get you far. I think the area has been covered over, maybe after Waltz died by a nature and the elements. I think the things Waltz used to find the mine is still there. That little tell tale sign that says ore is present. Pretty sure he used his eyes to find it. Probably running from the Indians when he found it.

Your gonna have to follow the old trails to find it. I also believe if there is one mine, there is more. This is from a newbie and just my opinion. I hope to have more next time I post to support it or throw it out. I will know more come fall.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Casca,
Thank you for your post, I wish you good luck and good fortune. I hope you will keep us posted with your discoveries and adventures.
Oroblanco

 

[Rawhide]

Thanks oro,

Im always here, just dont post much on the controversial topics. I get accused of being someone else. Im looking at old Spanish Mines and Trails, and found some neat stuff. It got me to thinking how about how they found the gold. Or why they constructed the mines and caves the way they did. Every time I answer a question, five more questions present themselves. Way too much info for one post, but I feel the LDM, Stone Maps, and few other finds are all part of something that started at least with the Spanish.

I keep finding older markings at the sites not of Spanish origin. Then I think about the saying, "Gold is where is has been found before". Then I think about the LDM.

I have looked at Geology, geobotany, types of mines, who used what kind of mine, historical data of specific key areas, and of course a little reading on the Treasure Hunting sites. Just to na,e a few.

My question is, how does a mine stay hidden for hundreds of years? Im figuring that out now. I am lucky to live where I do. There is even relatives of some of the first explorers not too far from the border I may contact if they are willing to talk about it. I need to establish a money trail if possible to see where all the wealth that was found after the Spanish left. There has been a few discovery's here close to home over the years.

The construction of the Spanish mines were of themselves a work of art. These mines were not built by commoners, it took real masters to do what I am seeing. I think I know why the LDM has not been found. If its what I think, we are gonna need more than the Stone Maps to find it.

As always I enjoy your post Oro's no matter what thread your on.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning my friend Casca: A suggestion, in the days past, especially in the period that we are referring to, the pre 1500's etc and progressively to the LDM. You must remember that there were no stores just over that hill, but at times a month or more each way. As a result most mining was basically improvising. In effect you did 'no more digging than was absolutely necessary' to allow the Indians access to the ore body, safety and comfort had no consideration..

Generally they worked to a point where the fire system of ventilation was no longer effective.

Many of their mines were effectively just squirrel or Coyote holes, just big enough for an Indian to squeeze past with a cow hide bag of ore. - scary.

As a result, many appeared to be just a bit of an open crack. and are easily lost with the passage of a bit of time.

An example, Tayopa is listed with 18 mines, this is correct, but most of them are of the crack in the ground type. No nice well formed portals. As a result just a few hurricanes moving through the area can effectively cover them back up again in a few years.

Incidentally, the main portal of Tayopa is presently covered with Talus - however the secondary access is known.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Loke]

@Real de Tayopa,
Good mornin' me oirish friend! How are ye deein'?
I see you are still as active as ever - wish I could say the same when I get to your tender age ... or .. maybe I'm there allready or *shudder* allready past it?
Give my best to your 'Tiger' and of course yourself as well - I'm always watching your scribing efforts just incase you let one slip one day - he, he, he.
Now let's see:

OK OK , first go to -------------------->the cut down cuchi trees, then to ------------------the Guayacan to the Este. 50 long paces to the south & you will be where that huge black spirit dog appeared and the mining marker, to the right / south you will see where the two chapo cerros are visible, then south for 1500 meters to the pole trail, up and over, then oeste 500 paces vertically to the ridge. this is where "X" is visible.. 650 mule loads of gold dore' bars and 1500 bars of silver, plus gold statues, plus a chamber with maps and documents.

Hey - you have left out a couple of placenames there!! - shame on you!

Have a good one!

Per

 

[Rawhide]

Hi Don,

You couldn't have said it any better. Just cracks and holes you really dont want to be in.

One thing I have noticed is that the earth moves. A mountain may only shift a few inches in a few hundred years, but it opens and closes cracks, exposing caverns. Some of the holes I am seeing have signs of someone being there. This would include wall drawings, small statues, and small rock fragments.

I noticed a possible cache area the other day, and the marker was not resting on a stone, but pushed up off a rock several inches, due to the mountain sliding. I also have noticed a strong flow of cool air in a lot of holes that lead me to believe there may be other openings.

When I said the mines were done by experts, I was talking about the markings used to identify the area. The clues left behind to find and access the mine/caves. So far I am only seeing caves that have small openings inside that are usually hidden from view if you would just poke a flashlight inside and look. I am also seeing a lot of false holes. As you said digging a hard rock cave would be a chore. So why make two, one being false.

I cant answer my own questions. Just know that someone came along and made it very tough to find these holes. I suspect the LDM has been hidden also. I know once the Stone Maps are deciphered, that the mountains will open up like a story book. Just my opinion and based on what I am seeing n the field. I think it will explain a lot of mystery's, like why the Spanish never returned for any stashed wealth.

This gets into another area, did the Spanish and others work mines. Thats off topic.

If there is one mine, there is likey two or more mines. The Spanish, Indians, French, and anyone else who explored the area were not dummies. If they found it, its going to be well hidden.

Since the ore is in the Quartz, I would be looking for any sign of Quartz in the general area of the LDM. I would look for a area where a pile of rocks just pops out of no where. I would look for signs of a lot of earth has moved, in a organized way. Fresh carvings in stone on a cliff, even hundreds of years old will still be lighter than the surrounding cliff. The harder the walk, the more likely you are to find something now a days.

Just my thoughts.

Well Loke, you need any help with the mules?

 

[EE THr]

My point of saying about the treasure trove permit being only for the caches, is that - you can STILL look around without a treasure trove permit, or a mining claim.

If you FOUND the cache, then your catch22 is not valid - because some pictures, coordinates and the like, would get you the treasure trove permit.

That is what has been lacking in most presentations given to the government. The "here it is". You don't need a treasure trove permit to hike around and look. No catch22.

Beth

Mrs. O---

OK, I understand what you're saying, now.

Any opinion on what the approximate odds are that the LDM could be found just by looking around on the surface? I mean, all the legends have it filled up and hidden, I think.

 

[Loke]

@EE Thr
For whatever it is worth - if the LDM exists, it wont be as a singularity - it will be as a vein which surfaces here-and-there-and-whereever.
If you can find _one_ surface point and even as lucky as finding another - then you will be laughing all the way to the bank - that is - if you can persuade the authorities!!
Hey - you may even find that it might be outside the wilderness area! I know it is claimed that there is no mineralization (to speak of) in the area, but facts tells us otherwise - or rather - they say there _is_ gold (and silver) in 'them thar hills' - or for another quote: 'Gold is where you find it'
If you find where the vein surfaces, it doesn't really matter whether or not it is now empty/worked-out - you have got _one_ of your points ...

Just saying ...

 

[EE THr]

...can you honestly state, that if you were able to pursue your interest in the Supers without any effort beyond what you wished to expend, and finances, regulations etc were no stumbling blocks, you would still not do anything about it?

The answer to that would be absolutely, without a doubt, for a certainty...well, let's say probably...um...well...kinda...for sure...OK, not too sure...um...actually...maybe...on the other hand...no. Does that make it perfectly clear? 8)

If you believe that you can walk away from the subject and never give it another thought, then you really are not being honest with us or yourself.

Heh-heh. Your wisdom and insight are commendable.


Another thing I thought of, is even if there are no pieces of ore or other artifacts in the mine, just being the LDM should make the whole thing a historical treasure. I imagine if someone found it, just about anything in there would have some kind of a price on it---even a sliver of timber, if it was authenticated.

But, unless it's visible, to the point of being absolutely identified, from the surface, as Mrs. O suggested, it's going to be a Catch-22 situation. And that leads right back to the laws involved.

But there are several reasons why laws can be legally invalid. And even more reasons why mere policies can be legally invalid.

Interesting.

 

[EE THr]

For hundreds of years there has been mines. Most were open pits. These mines were dug by the ones before the Indians, lets call em toltec, I dont care what you call you em. Then the Native Americans. Then the Jesuit, Spanish, and Mexican's.

I think there are many people who generally agree with that.

Whether you've been to the Supers or not, I think your ability to reason is good.

 

[EE THr]

@EE Thr
For whatever it is worth - if the LDM exists, it wont be as a singularity - it will be as a vein which surfaces here-and-there-and-whereever.

If you can find _one_ surface point and even as lucky as finding another - then you will be laughing all the way to the bank - that is - if you can persuade the authorities!!

Hey - you may even find that it might be outside the wilderness area! I know it is claimed that there is no mineralization (to speak of) in the area, but facts tells us otherwise - or rather - they say there _is_ gold (and silver) in 'them thar hills' - or for another quote: 'Gold is where you find it'

If you find where the vein surfaces, it doesn't really matter whether or not it is now empty/worked-out - you have got _one_ of your points ...

Just saying ...

Yup!






There are the three calderas in the area. They are each different ages.

 

[Rawhide]

For hundreds of years there has been mines. Most were open pits. These mines were dug by the ones before the Indians, lets call em toltec, I dont care what you call you em. Then the Native Americans. Then the Jesuit, Spanish, and Mexican's.

I think there are many people who generally agree with that.

Whether you've been to the Supers or not, I think your ability to reason is good.

Im being taught by the best on here, it better be sound. I have tried to go away, but it doesnt work. The real sites Im looking at is leading me there ever so slowley.

 

[Oroblanco]

Casca - thank you for the very kind words. I have been put into the position of wearing the skeptic hat around here a lot lately, which is not what I would prefer.

Your point about having 'created' caves, which do not appear to be mines is something I think I may be able to shed a little light on. At least one ancient Indian culture did alter existing caves, for the purpose of creating tombs. There are some really interesting examples near Springerville (AZ) that are off-limits to the public, but the fact that they were altering natural caves may explain why you will see what appears to be a man-made cave; it may have been a natural cave that ancient Indians altered, intending to make a tomb or 'catacomb' of tombs if you will. I can't say that IS what you have seen, just a possible explanation.

EE THr wrote

Any opinion on what the approximate odds are that the LDM could be found just by looking around on the surface? I mean, all the legends have it filled up and hidden, I think.

Not all accounts - read Joe Deering's story as he told to his friend John Chuning. According to his version, a "funnel" shaped pit is open to the surface, with piles of rejected ore laying around the entrance. The rejected ore was quite rich, if Chuning can be believed. Whether this is the same mine as Waltz worked is a matter of debate, but Deering did not try to cover the mine so if his story can be believed, it would be possible to just walk up on it without digging at all, and a little piece of ore might be found laying on the surface.

EE THr also wrote

There are the three calderas in the area. They are each different ages.

One of the USGS publications states there may be as many as seven discreet calderas of varying ages and sizes within the Wilderness Area.

Oroblanco

 

[Rawhide]

oro,

That may explain the small statues and large faces. I am going to see if there is any 90' turns into another chamber next time Im up. Thanks.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO LOKE, mi buddy, sniff I am only 87, just about 1/2 way there. To find the missing pieces go to Tayopa.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Old Dog]

Don Quihote,
Missing pieces
My Aunt Sara !!
(missing agreements with a semi corrupt graberment)
I am waiting your word on a recovery mission old friend.
Sorry to call the bluff, (or blow the joke).

 

[Loke]

HIO LOKE, mi buddy, sniff I am only 87, just about 1/2 way there. To find the missing pieces go to Tayopa.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Heh - is that _all_ it takes?? Just go to Tayopa?
Hmmm - when's the next donkey out of here?

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Joe I was just getting mystified as to what ground we are in disagreement on, hence the reason for posting so much more to try to pick out where that disagreement is rooted.

To try to tie this back to the topic, I could ask what tribes you (all) would say were present in the Superstition mountains during the historical period? Thank you in advance, and it is not a trick question to try to bait someone into an argument, just curious to what the consensus is."

Don't believe we actually disagree. Just following the thread and trying to keep the conversation going.

If you are asking about the1800s, I would say the major Indian presence in the Superstitions would be the Yavapai.....principally the Kwevkepaya branch of the Yavapai. If there were Tonto Apache, IMHO, they would be in the mountains at the invitation of the Kwevkepaya.

The lines between the tribes in the area of the Superstitions became quite blurred in that era. The Tonto and Yavapai did a great deal of intermarrying.

Just an unqualified opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Peerless67]

Beth LUV you posted -->Horse theiven is still punishable by hangin' and I think they count them mules as horses
********
Not in Mexico, no death penalty Incidentally it is one mule = 1 1/2 horsies.

As for oro's remark, 16 is legal, not in calif, called Quintin quail bait. Look at poor ole Errol flynn.

As a matter of fact I caught mi tiger when she was 16, going on 17, married her at 18. all because
she lost one huarache and couldn't run fast enough.

Don Jose de La Mancha (108851)

She visited San Quentin every day in the hopes of catching a glimpse of Don Jose

proof...