How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[Blindbowman]

EE THr wrote

Who is that, and how is he contacted?

I don't know him personally, other members here do and could answer any questions you have about him; I am a bit surprised that you have not heard of Ron though. He is believed by a fair number of folks to have found the LDM, and is in that small club of folks who had gold to show for their efforts.

Drawn to Arizona in 1968 by legends of lost mines and the Western mythology of Zane Grey, Ron Feldman has become an authority on lost mines and regional history. He established one of the most successful stables in the Southwest, the outfitting and guide service known as the O.K. Corral Stables.

Ron has appeared many times on national television and has been a guest lecturer at Central Arizona College. In 2004-2005, he headed an archaeological treasure-trove dig in the Superstition Wilderness, under the U.S. Forest Service.

<from http://www.okcorrals.com/crooked_mountain.php>

The Feldmans business site has a contact form page, you might try that:
http://www.okcorrals.com/contact.php

Ron is also one of the very few people to ever successfully obtain a Treasure Trove permit from the USFS, and in the Superstitions Wilderness area at that, which I have been told is "impossible" to do. Hence my suggestions.

Jim Hatt researched the matter of mining and mining claims in Wilderness Areas and has a good explanation of what is allowed and what is not (in a general way, the Superstitions has much tighter restrictions than the national standard) on the Desert USA forum. I don't have a link handy but if you just go to the forum you can find it fairly easily.

It may seem impossible to legally do anything with the Lost Dutchman mine if you did actually find it, but as Bob Corbin said "You can't legislate away mens dreams." ...and in government, special allowances are very often made when a large amount of wealth is involved. Don't kid yourself about this factor either, for the Fed stands to benefit in a big way if someone were to find a treasure trove as they get half of the value right off the top, and you pay income tax on the remainder, with a mine the percentage is not so great but still a royalty plus the income taxes on your profits. The restrictions are to prevent folks from just destroying the wilderness in a blind way, just as Celeste Jones was trying to dynamite Weavers Needle to dust in her search for Waltz's mine. People can be very destructive, and the wilderness itself has a value to the people as it is, which would be degraded if the authorities simply allowed anyone to dynamite their way across it any way they pleased.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

what is it they . equal shares , with equal taxes .....


so Roy what would you do if someone made you find your self holding a share of thus legendary mine .. as a share hold of a so called mine if it was, real that is ...


better yet .. how much would you try to carry out on your back ....

what i am really asking is would you leave all your gear behind and just carry out as much ore as you could possably carry at one time say 4 1/2 miles ...late after noon . you have 3 hours to hike out what would you do ...??

 

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[EE THr]

...I am a bit surprised that you have not heard of Ron though. He is believed by a fair number of folks to have found the LDM, and is in that small club of folks who had gold to show for their efforts.

You needn't be surprised by how little I know about the LDM. As I have said (somewhere in the LDM section, I think), I'm just an Internet hobbyist on this subject, and just for the past couple of years, on and off.

8)




And like I said in a post above, surely there must be some way of overcoming the problem [legally].

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Oroblanco]

EE THr wrote

And like I said in a post above, surely there must be some way of overcoming the problem [legally].

Where there is a will, there is a way. If your plan involves dynamiting a giant crater in the Superstitions Wilderness Area and a four lane paved highway in to it, you are setting yourself up for a major disappointment.

Blindbowman wrote

so Roy what would you do if someone made you find your self holding a share of thus legendary mine .. as a share hold of a so called mine if it was, real that is ...


better yet .. how much would you try to carry out on your back ....

what i am really asking is would you leave all your gear behind and just carry out as much ore as you could possably carry at one time say 4 1/2 miles ...late after noon . you have 3 hours to hike out what would you do

A set of theoretical questions, which all require the finding of the legendary mine as the first requirement. If permits were obtained, and I am speculating 100% here, it is likely that restrictions would be in place against the building of any road in to the mine, and also likely that no heavy equipment would be allowed. In fact a Plan of Operations would have to be submitted and approved before real work could commence in any case; assuming it was approved, the packing of ore might be easiest and safest by use of pack animals. I injured my back several years ago and cannot pack out hundreds of pounds of anything. I have used pack horses but think mules or burros might be a better choice for the Superstitions. One burro of fairly small size can comfortably pack more weight than I can, a large mule considerably more than I can.

If you are posing a theoretical situation where I would be trying to sneak in and extract all I could illegally, I can't speculate on what I might do. As I have a good idea of what prisons are like, and Arizona prisons are considerably less accomodating than those I am familiar with, the values involved would have to be such as to justify the risk of prison time.

Why all these hypothetical questions amigos? Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ah Ha, as I suspected , you posted --> injured my back several years ago and cannot pack out hundreds of pounds of anything
**************************
Already weaseling.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you posted --> As I have a good idea of what prisons are like, and Arizona prisons are considerably less accomodating than those I am familiar with, the values involved would have to be such as to justify the risk of prison time.
***************************
You mean ?? horrors Beth did you know of this? I know what San Quintin, the max security prison in Calif is like, because I worked there as a guard while going to school. Now your explanation ? he he he


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Ah Ha, as I suspected , you posted --> injured my back several years ago and cannot pack out hundreds of pounds of anything
**************************
Already weaseling.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you posted --> As I have a good idea of what prisons are like, and Arizona prisons are considerably less accommodating than those I am familiar with, the values involved would have to be such as to justify the risk of prison time.
***************************
You mean ?? horrors Beth did you know of this? I know what San Quintin, the max security prison in Calif is like, because I worked there as a guard while going to school. Now your explanation ? he he he


Don Jose de La Mancha

Not weaseling, just honesty; however there is no reason to pack on your back, when the labor of packing out ore can be more efficiently done by pack animals. Unless of course you have a strong aversion to mules and burros, in which case there are other options less popularly used, like llamas.

What explanation is necessary viz la prison years? You could find me at the Powhatan Correctional Center, State Farm VA for a few years time a couple decades or so ago, it is a matter of public record. Can you not imagine that there have been cases where the innocent have been wrongly imprisoned, or that the clemency of the state might lead to an early release for an inmate that had shown the proper regrets and behavior while incarcerated? Do you not believe that when a person has been convicted and served their sentence, that they might deserve a second chance?

Frankly I am shocked at your hesitation(s) and presumptions! Do you not trust that all treasure hunters, members of a special brotherhood and sisterhood, are all to a man perfect gentlemen and ladies? Shall we now examine the criminal records of each of us, in detail? <Horrors!> I am deeply affronted, cut to the quick, and now will not consider even offering you a single slice of the freshly baked blue cornbread - so don't think of asking.

Oroblanco

I will have my own coffee this time and offer none to anyone, so there!

 

[Cubfan64]

Pfft... who needs pack animals. I'm gonna outfit myself with an army of these!!!

 

[Oroblanco]

They are pretty cool amigo - but motorized equipment is not usually allowed in most wilderness areas.

 

[Cubfan64]

Dang, you're right - I forgot about that One of my coworkers has a friend who works next door to this company and they looked outside awhile back and saw them "testing" one of these things in the parking lot - freaked her out!!

I imagine they'd be out of my price range anyways

 

[Oroblanco]

Well I hadn't even thought of what they might cost - might be a wee bit expensive now that you mention it. I saw a similar type being tested on a TV series on the history channel, very strange to see a machine act like an animal. They also showed a 'suit' that allowed a man to pack 400 pounds and hike or run all day, without exerting much energy. Kind of spooky for the future.

Pack animals can be quite a nuisance too, they can wander off during the night or get spooked and into a mess in the cactus etc. I like them but they are definitely not for everyone.
Roy

 

[EE THr]

It still remains that either a mining claim, which apparently would not be honored, or a treasure trove permit, would be required.

Just looking at one, for now, the trove permit, as far as I can see, is a catch-22, to wit---

If whatever the LDM really is, either a cache of ore, or a mine with some loose ore which might be considered treasure, or maybe both, unless a person can just walk right into it, there's going to be some digging required in order for the finder to know he's found it.

That's not yet even considering convincing the permit people of what it is. That's just knowing you've found it. I mean, nobody is going to really know they have found it, until they have actually found it.

I know, some people have been sure they have found it, but what is that worth? Trying to convince others that one has found it, isn't really worth one's time! Only a crazy person would apply for a trove permit, on a hunch!

There just aren't enough, if any, solid clues in existence, for a person to confirm to himself that he has found it, going by clues or the public maps alone. And even if someone found a "family map," that has been done before in other cases, and still not been right. How could anyone possibly know for certain?

Since the LDM is most probably covered, filled-in, camouflaged, and totally hidden; it certainly appears that the only way to know for sure is to dig, which requires a permit.

Catch-22.

Unless I'm missing something.

? ? ? ? ?

 

[Oroblanco]

It still remains that either a mining claim, which apparently would not be honored, or a treasure trove permit, would be required.

Just looking at one, for now, the trove permit, as far as I can see, is a catch-22, to wit---

If whatever the LDM really is, either a cache of ore, or a mine with some loose ore which might be considered treasure, or maybe both, unless a person can just walk right into it, there's going to be some digging required in order for the finder to know he's found it.

That's not yet even considering convincing the permit people of what it is. That's just knowing you've found it. I mean, nobody is going to really know they have found it, until they have actually found it.

I know, some people have been sure they have found it, but what is that worth? Trying to convince others that one has found it, isn't really worth one's time! Only a crazy person would apply for a trove permit, on a hunch!

There just aren't enough, if any, solid clues in existence, for a person to confirm to himself that he has found it, going by clues or the public maps alone. And even if someone found a "family map," that has been done before in other cases, and still not been right. How could anyone possibly know for certain?

Since the LDM is most probably covered, filled-in, camouflaged, and totally hidden; it certainly appears that the only way to know for sure is to dig, which requires a permit.

Catch-22.

Unless I'm missing something.

? ? ? ? ?

You are setting up a path of roadblocks for yourself, while ignoring that first step which would give you the justification to pursue finding the answers - first you need to FIND THE MINE. Or cache, as the case may be. The rest you will deal with afterward.

A great humorist had a similar line of thinking to what you are presenting, which he termed as the "sequential vortex" and allows for a great excuse against any sort of effort. (Pat McManus)

Finding the Lost Dutchman gold mine is not for 'faint heart' - the task is not easy by any means and finding it is only the first step to converting it to any sort of profit. If you are easily discouraged, I would suggest finding a different avocation than treasure hunting for it is almost never an easy path to riches. Not trying to be discouraging to you EE, just stating the facts - if you are expecting that it would be an easy road you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

geeze oro, not even trying for my mule but -->I will have my own coffee this time and offer none to anyone, so there
*******************
sniff, no coffee? none ?? Incidentally I have made arrangements with oro to trust him with my life, but NOT my mule.
Sheesh, One can only carry this trust thingie so far.

Don Jose de La Mancha.

 

[Oroblanco]

geeze oro, not even trying for my mule but -->I will have my own coffee this time and offer none to anyone, so there
*******************
sniff, no coffee? none ?? Incidentally I have made arrangements with oro to trust him with my life, but NOT my mule.
Sheesh, One can only carry this trust thingie so far.

Don Jose de La Mancha.

Oh I will sure have coffee for YOU, Don Jose; especially brewed with just the right "Wyoming" touch to it, you can count on that. In fact your special coffee will be just for you, alone - I will settle for the regular old common stuff.

As for trust, how many times do I have to keep telling you NOT to trust me? Why do you think I have been after you all this time to show me where Tayopa is, after all? Caveat emptor! Besides, you still haven't taken me there, I might start getting to think that you DON'T trust me, which is why even though I have gone more than half way to meet you, you remain so hesitant about that last 'mile'. After all, we have both spent time inside of prisons, looking out right? You might even call us "jailhouse buddies".
Oroblanco

 

[EE THr]

You are setting up a path of roadblocks for yourself, while ignoring that first step which would give you the justification to pursue finding the answers - first you need to FIND THE MINE. Or cache, as the case may be. The rest you will deal with afterward.

A great humorist had a similar line of thinking to what you are presenting, which he termed as the "sequential vortex" and allows for a great excuse against any sort of effort. (Pat McManus)

Finding the Lost Dutchman gold mine is not for 'faint heart' - the task is not easy by any means and finding it is only the first step to converting it to any sort of profit. If you are easily discouraged, I would suggest finding a different avocation than treasure hunting for it is almost never an easy path to riches. Not trying to be discouraging to you EE, just stating the facts - if you are expecting that it would be an easy road you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Oroblanco

Heh-heh. I understand all that. It's the problem of needing to know the result before you produce the result. That is very, very, true, and it stops a lot of people.

But, you, yourself have presented the Catch-22, when you said, "First you must find it." That sounds very logical. The problem is that until you dig, you have not found it!

The question posed has has nothing to do with anyone's avocation, or a person's expectations.

The question simply stands by itself.


I will restate the question in a problem -- solution form.

The problem is that one cannot find it until after he has found it. That is, he cannot dig until after he has already dug.

So, what is the solution?

 

[EE THr]

Oro---

Oh yeah, I forgot...what did the guy who got the only trove permit do?

I mean, it sounded like it was for the LDM, so did he tell the permit people that? There was some discussion about it being a bad idea to mention Waltz, the Peraltas, the Stone Maps, and essentially any kind of legend that the FS didn't feel was legitimate.

So how did he convince them to issue the permit?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

oro, you posted --> we have both spent time inside of prisons, looking out right?
***********
but 'I' was framed by a rotten crooked copper. I was innocent honest injun. That lovely mule
just followed me home. I have a rapport with animals and they are just hanging around me all
of the time, so I didn't notice her.. Same with that 16 year old broad. 'she' said that she was 33.
Sigh

Don Jose de La Mancha (# 1087851 )

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

what did the guy who got the only trove permit do?


Didn't Ron Feldman write a book about his adventures You should buy his book.

Hey, Jose,

Horse theiven is still punishable by hangin' (and I think they count them mules as horses - at least half of them).


Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

EE THr wrote

Heh-heh. I understand all that. It's the problem of needing to know the result before you produce the result. That is very, very, true, and it stops a lot of people.

But, you, yourself have presented the Catch-22, when you said, "First you must find it." That sounds very logical. The problem is that until you dig, you have not found it!

The question posed has has nothing to do with anyone's avocation, or a person's expectations.

The question simply stands by itself.


I will restate the question in a problem -- solution form.

The problem is that one cannot find it until after he has found it. That is, he cannot dig until after he has already dug.

So, what is the solution?
Oh yeah, I forgot...what did the guy who got the only trove permit do?

I mean, it sounded like it was for the LDM, so did he tell the permit people that? There was some discussion about it being a bad idea to mention Waltz, the Peraltas, the Stone Maps, and essentially any kind of legend that the FS didn't feel was legitimate.

So how did he convince them to issue the permit?

I don't quite get what the problem is, that you seem to be asking. We could debate the various recipes for Welsh rarebit, but first we need the meat to go into the pot. Comprende? Most of your questions really ought to be addressed to the Forest Service, and to those whom have applied for, and received Treasure Trove permits. All our speculation as to how we might proceed after finding the mine or cache of ore, is speculation. You might find that you have no problems at all getting the govt to allow you to file a claim on it, if you really had the mine and could prove it. I could ask you how you plan to file your taxes on all the proceeds you will get from winning next week's lottery, and how much will you invest etc but until that winning ticket has been cashed in we are debating castles in the clouds.

As for the digging part, you have never answered my question as to why you are so sure that you must dig to find it. Also, why all the hypothetical questions? it is fun to speculate, but that is all it is until someone finds something.

Don Jose wrote

oro, you posted --> we have both spent time inside of prisons, looking out right?
***********
but 'I' was framed by a rotten crooked copper. I was innocent honest injun. That lovely mule
just followed me home. I have a rapport with animals and they are just hanging around me all
of the time, so I didn't notice her.. Same with that 16 year old broad. 'she' said that she was 33.
Sigh

A likely story. Any witnesses to support this story, or would you like to perhaps re-think how those events unfolded in your memory? I would point out that in Dakota Territory, horse thieving is a hanging offense, but I see that Mrs O already pointed it out; a similar statute is still on the books for Wyoming, but I don't know the laws for CA on this. Would you care to expound on this chapter of your life, or take the Fifth? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - 16 is old enough for marriage in some states amigo, in case you had any doubts on that matter.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO you posted --> I might start getting to think that you DON'T trust
***************

OK OK , first go to -------------------->the cut down cuchi trees, then to ------------------the Guayacan to the Este. 50 long paces to the south & you will be where that huge black spirit dog appeared and the mining marker, to the right / south you will see where the two chapo cerros are visible, then south for 1500 meters to the pole trail, up and over, then oeste 500 paces vertically to the ridge. this is where "X" is visible.. 650 mule loads of gold dore' bars and 1500 bars of silver, plus gold statues, plus a chamber with maps and documents.

Now you know my secret. See I am being honest with you .

Don Jose de La Mancha