How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[EE THr]

OMG. I can see that ending up in a book, 100 years from now, and people debating whether it's true or not on their wristwatch iPods.

Oh, noooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Beth LUV you posted -->Horse theiven is still punishable by hangin' and I think they count them mules as horses
********
Not in Mexico, no death penalty Incidentally it is one mule = 1 1/2 horsies.

As for oro's remark, 16 is legal, not in calif, called Quintin quail bait. Look at poor ole Errol flynn.

As a matter of fact I caught mi tiger when she was 16, going on 17, married her at 18. all because
she lost one huarache and couldn't run fast enough.

Don Jose de La Mancha (108851)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

EE, neither Beth, Oro, nor myslef speak with forked tongues

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

EE, neither Beth, Oro, nor myslef speak with forked tongues

Don Jose de La Mancha

HAY speak for thyself, el Tropical tramp! What is so bad about a bit of forking, after all?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Ah, sometimes I get "forked tongue" up -

Actually, my tongue gets in front of my eye teeth, and then I cannot see what I am saying.

Got it?


Beth

 

[EE THr]

Oro---

I didn't mean to sound like I was demanding anything from you, or anyone.

I was just responding to the topic title, with my original statement and question, that half the task of finding the LDM is going to be "knowing that you found it." Which would require a trove permit.

And then it lead into what it lead into.

...Just commenting on the topic, and asking questions to the room in general. Sort of speaking my thoughts. Or as some people say, "thinking out loud." On the topic.

I've got some other things brewing currently, but they don't consist of going out and hunting any big treasure. And not in Arizona. The only time I've seen the Supers, was from the hamburger stand on the main road in Apache Junction. That was in '91, and we were just passing through. Darn good chocolate shakes there, though. there was a souvenir shop next door West, with the usual gold nuggets and Indian jewelry, and a real nice guy owned it and showed us around.

I did live in Phoenix in '75-'76, but no treasure hunting or even prospecting. I also lived in the Sierras for a few years before that, but only did a little prospecting about a dozen years after that.

Anyway, right now I have no plans to drop everything and go to the Superstitions. So there is no need to get very intense about the whole thing, ya know?

My point is only that it's a Catch-22. And I certainly don't think that means that it's impossible.

But I'm speaking only of legal means of overcoming the problem, anything else wouldn't really be fun for me. It would be like giving up. Plus it's against forum rules to do illegal stuff on here; could even be considered conspiracy, who knows?

I'm starting to get an idea of how to solve it, but maybe it's to hot of a subject to discuss on here.

Anyway, have fun, whatever you do. 8)

 

[EE THr]

EE, neither Beth, Oro, nor myslef speak with forked tongues

Don Jose de La Mancha

Yeah, but will future generations know that?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

A Treasure Trove permit would only be valid if you are talking about the caches.

Not the LDM itself.

Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

EE THr wrote

Anyway, right now I have no plans to drop everything and go to the Superstitions. So there is no need to get very intense about the whole thing, ya know?

My point is only that it's a Catch-22. And I certainly don't think that means that it's impossible.

I wasn't taking that you were demanding the answers from me, just wasn't sure about where all this was headed. I can only speak for myself, as to how to proceed on getting legal title to a mythical gold mine; my suggestion about not mentioning Waltz or Peraltas is due to what I see published in several government publications, which term them as "legendary" ie mythical, on the same level as the Easter Bunny and likely to trigger a negative response to attempts to obtain any permits, if mentioned in an application. Also there is an important factor here that in my eyes carries more weight than recognition for being "the" one who found the LDM, that is the gold itself. To me, finding a rich gold mine that has enough gold to set you up for life financially, is a greater reward than the recognition for having found a famous lost mine. Fame is a fleeting animal after all, and I don't feel any desire to want to appear on TV in order to brag on myself. The monetary reward however would change my life (and the Mrs) in a lasting way. So to me, it does not matter what anyone calls the gold mine, so long as we have the gold.

The second important issue is that some great discoveries have been made by people looking for famous old lost mines; as in the case with Mr Feldman mentioned earlier, whether the Pit mine he discovered is the LDM or not is almost irrelevant, as he is set financially now. This is hardly the only case where a person searching for a lost mine has found wealth, whether it is the lost mine or not. Just by getting out there and searching, increases your odds of making a discovery.

I am sure that plenty of folks disagree with my views on this, and hold the fame as far more important, and I have no problems with them, just can't agree.

EE THr also wrote

But I'm speaking only of legal means of overcoming the problem, anything else wouldn't really be fun for me. It would be like giving up. Plus it's against forum rules to do illegal stuff on here; could even be considered conspiracy, who knows?

I'm starting to get an idea of how to solve it, but maybe it's to hot of a subject to discuss on here. dontknow

Anyway, have fun, whatever you do.

It is always a good idea to have some kind of plan thought out in advance, however I don't think it is wise to carve that plan in stone, nor to decide NOT to proceed simply because there will be difficulties. There are always difficulties of one sort or the other in the treasure hunting business.

Also - I still view this as a business, and a serious one; several of our friends here view it as our hobby, but I respectfully disagree; there are no "hobby" treasure hunters, nor prospectors for that matter. Every single one of those whom are reading our words here, were they to discover such hidden wealth, would rather quickly become very serious about it. So (Joe too) I don't buy it that anyone here is doing it as a hobby. You might rationalize it to yourself that way, but you know that things would change dramatically once there is a find. There is no 1872 recreational prospecting law, nor Hobby Treasure Trove Act. It is serious business.

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS to EE THr - Do not take MY word as the final word on how the Forest Service, BLM or any other agency will react to anything, nor as to the wisest course to proceed. I can't speak for anyone other than myself.

 

[Cubfan64]

I believe Ron Feldman's books are fictional versions of events - a mix of fact and fiction woven together. One would have to find out directly from Ron what was or wasn't fact.

He used to have a website devoted to his H.E.A.T. team project, but it hasn't been updated for quite some time. Here is one of the pages still there that sort of explains what he was looking for. It was indeed a treasure TROVE and not a gold mine.

http://dutchhunter.com/brief_history.htm

 

[EE THr]

PS - 16 is old enough for marriage in some states amigo, in case you had any doubts on that matter.

In one of the Northeastern States, I think Rhode Island, it used to be 12. Back in those days, if girls weren't married by the time they were 14 or 15, they were considered old maids.

Nowdays, they treat young adults like they are children until they are 16 or 18 or 21, then expect them to act like adults. Anybody, no matter how old they are, would act crazy after that kind of psychological torture for 4 to 6 years or more.

And they wonder "what's wrong with the kids these days?

If everybody keeps telling you your too stupid to think for yourself, for a period of years, it's bound to mess you up to some degree, no matter who you are.

Prior to a couple hundred years ago, when you reached maturity, you reached maturity. That fact was so obvious that nobody ever thought otherwise.

But now we've got the sick-ologists telling us how messed up we are all supposed to be, and that suddenly humans don't reach maturity until 16, 18, or 21 years.

 

[EE THr]

Mrs. O---

A Treasure Trove permit would only be valid if you are talking about the caches.

Not the LDM itself.

Beth

It still remains that either a mining claim, which apparently would not be honored, or a treasure trove permit, would be required.

Just looking at one, for now, the trove permit, as far as I can see, is a catch-22, to wit---

If whatever the LDM really is, either a cache of ore, or a mine with some loose ore which might be considered treasure, or maybe both, unless a person can just walk right into it, there's going to be some digging required in order for the finder to know he's found it.

That's not yet even considering convincing the permit people of what it is. That's just knowing you've found it. I mean, nobody is going to really know they have found it, until they have actually found it.

....

8)

 

[EE THr]

Oro---

It is serious business.

I've found that whenever one gets too serious about something, everything seems to bog down.

So long as you don't get silly-giddy about what you're doing, or go off on a tangent, insouciance gains more success.

8)

 

[EE THr]

Cubfan---

Thanks for the link.

 

[EE THr]

Well, after reading Cubfan's link, it appears that Ron was able to get a trove permit because the mine had been entered earlier, and was well documented, including the presence of Government agents.

Plus the ground penetrating radar images, indicating a significant amount of metalic material was in there, which would be of historical value even if it wasn't the bulloin the figured it was.

 

[Cubfan64]

I wish I knew from memory all the specifics concerning the Treasure Trove permit Mr. Feldman obtained, but I mostly heard bits and pieces over the years and don't know that I've seen a good composite story from beginning to end.

The things I do recall are:

1) There was a TREMENDOUS amount of research that went into being able to convince the authorities to grant him a permit - most of which I believe came from Ted Cox's diaries and subsequent research done by Feldman's team to prove them to be factual beyond a reasonable doubt.

2) Along with the substantial research was obviously a great deal of time and effort put forth by Mr. Feldman's team - along with (I assume) quite a bit of money out of their own pockets.

3) Once the permit was obtained, there was a significant amount of work involved by the team in order to meet the requirements of said permit. Things like use of only certain types of tools were allowed as well as pretty strict authority oversight of the entire project.

Knowing even the tiny iota of information I do about Mr. Feldman's work to get his permit is the main reason I have a very difficult time taking seriously the posts on TNet specifically when folks assume a few Google Earth images will be enough to get the same treatment.

There are a few folks who post here now and then who know much more about Ron's treasure trove permit and eventual dig, so hopefully they can weigh in and provide more insight than I can.

 

[Oroblanco]

EE THr wrote

I've found that whenever one gets too serious about something, everything seems to bog down.

So long as you don't get silly-giddy about what you're doing, or go off on a tangent, insouciance gains more success.

I agree; in fact I would say that a treasure hunter, if he/she wishes to be successful and endure, must have a very good sense of humor as well as the patience of Job. I still hold that those of us who claim their interest in this subject is purely on a hobby level, are not being honest with us, or with themselves. It is a serious business, that requires a sense of humor and endless optimism.

Thank you Cubfan for the additional info. Mr. Feldman's example ought to serve to show what it takes to successfully obtain a Treasure Trove permit, and yes some satellite photos is going to fall far short of what will be expected by the Forest Service. I don't know why some people seem to get angry at those of us who are telling them the honest truth about this fact - we don't issue the permits, and to expect that the world is going to grant laurels of honor for discovering the Lost Dutchman mine, without so much as showing a single speck of gold, is not a reasonable expectation.

Of course I suppose hostility is to be expected when presented with a distasteful truth. Maybe it is better to just say nothing when someone starts posting claims of discovery, without any solid evidence to back it up other than some satellite photos or having "decoded" a treasure map.

Oroblanco

Have to sign off, may stop by for a visit this evening.

 

[EE THr]

I still hold that those of us who claim their interest in this subject is purely on a hobby level, are not being honest with us, or with themselves.

Well, I am being honest when I say that I have no plans to visit the Supers. I might add that I have no plans to find the LDM, either. So what would you call that?

I do have reason to believe that there is a consistency of indicators in the publicly available maps, as I have presented in another thread. But I also believe that these maps are legends, and qualify only as "mythical," as you mentioned. But then, who really knows for sure? I only know that it was fun doing it! I actually found more stuff that seemed to match-up, while I was posting those things, and added it as I went.

By the way, I think the solution to the Catch-22 laws, are the laws themselves.

Thanks to all who contributed, and above all, have fun.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

My point of saying about the treasure trove permit being only for the caches, is that - you can STILL look around without a treasure trove permit, or a mining claim.

If you FOUND the cache, then your catch22 is not valid - because some pictures, coordinates and the like, would get you the treasure trove permit.

That is what has been lacking in most presentations given to the government. The "here it is". You don't need a treasure trove permit to hike around and look. No catch22.

Beth