Whiskey Springs Maps

[cuzimloony]

I think it's worthwhile to look at Masonic connections, but as far as I could tell, it's ancillary to what was going on with the LDS. That these men had connections and worked together in the finding and mining of precious metals is obvious.

Weedin ran against Hunt for the Democratic nomination for Governor. He lost, but Hunt went on to win the Governorship.

Jim Bark mentioned this briefly, but I can't remember where. Bark notes, maybe?

One can't begin to understand what was going on in early AZ without looking at the activities of people belonging to the Church. But equally important is what was going on politically, before, during and after the civil war. Heck, even the gunfight at the OK Corral can ultimately be laid at the feet of Northern (Republican) business interests that clashed with business interests of Texan/Southern (Democrat) operations. That's if you can call cattle rustling a business interest LOL. But that's what it boiled down to...opposing sides in the civil war still hating each other and fighting for control in AZ.

Agree with all of that, but one part....
Because of what you said at the end about the civil war and politics, I don't think the actions of Masons or Mormons or Confederates are ancillary to the LDM.
I'll explain....
If I were to name my mine "Big Globalist" or "Big Tobacco," I would clearly be "choosing sides." I would be putting my name with THAT team.
And so.......because of the tensions (which are STILL hot in the south) after the civil war, the amount of press, lives taken, emotion, etc... especially THEN, it's my opinion that Waltz, by naming his mine BIG REBEL, was putting his name on THAT team.
And at Adamsville, we have THAT team alongside Mormon Masons working together......
Now would Mormon/Mason/Confederates ever hide money and then create a ruse??
Nooooooooo they would never...
So long story long, if Waltz can be tied to any of those groups, then there becomes a POSSIBILITY that bigger things are at play, that he might not be a "lone ranger."

 

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[cuzimloony]

Maybe a long post coming.....
Im a bit mad, maybe enraged is more like it.
I am in Adamsville Cemetery right now, but its not called the Adamsville Cemtery anymore......

I drove through last week to see what it was like and I didnt see what I see now......
First off, EVERY confederate flagged gravestone is gone. Some gravestones, last time I was here, still had the stars and bars.

There were Captains of the Confederate States of America's gravestones (also a Masonic judge).

His grave now looks like this:

There were many gravestones with Masonic squares compasses, of which only 2 exist now.

Every single piece of confederate anything, is gone, and a lot of the Masonic stuff too. Replaced with a white cross. That Masonic handshake gravestone I posted earlier (from a previous trip)...it's gone too.
So much for supporting my theory........
No Adamsville video will be made........
I guess you'll just have to trust me, if you want to. This cemetery WAS absolutely a Masonic/Confederate graveyard. Now, there are just white crosses replacing ALL of that.
I cant even believe it......
Peoples gravestones.........
FYI, there's a big Rotary Club sign right at the enterance now......

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Waltz, by naming his mine BIG REBEL, was putting his name on THAT team.
....
So long story long, if Waltz can be tied to any of those groups, then there becomes a POSSIBILITY that bigger things are at play, that he might not be a "lone ranger."

KGC? But...Waltz also had a claim named the General Grant, after he had claimed the Big Rebel...so, did he switch sides? Just pulling your leg, but one would have to explain that.

Just my opinion, but I think Waltz was a "lone ranger" on the LDM. Regardless of the stories where he kills his nephew, or his pard is killed by Indians...which I can't say I believe either as true. To me, just old yarns, spun by old story tellers. I s'pose believers of the Holmes tale would point to Dick Holmes finding the nephew's skull at Hidden Water...but then we also have an earlier story that the skull was found by someone else, and it was not from a nephew of Waltz.

There was a lot of DNA swapping going on between these stories. Even some modern day novelists coming up with whole new stories based on the old ones.

 

[cuzimloony]

KGC? But...Waltz also had a claim named the General Grant, after he had claimed the Big Rebel...so, did he switch sides? Just pulling your leg, but one would have to explain that.

Just my opinion, but I think Waltz was a "lone ranger" on the LDM. Regardless of the stories where he kills his nephew, or his pard is killed by Indians...which I can't say I believe either as true. To me, just old yarns, spun by old story tellers. I s'pose believers of the Holmes tale would point to Dick Holmes finding the nephew's skull at Hidden Water...but then we also have an earlier story that the skull was found by someone else, and it was not from a nephew of Waltz.

There was a lot of DNA swapping going on between these stories. Even some modern day novelists coming up with whole new stories based on the old ones.

Exactly......
We have conflicting story after conflicting story. We have Waltz Maps, deerskin maps, peralta maps, stone maps, horse maps, this map that map.......
Kinda creates a bit of confusion in your head doesn't it........like those articles and maps are designed so that you can never nail anything down....
Who would do something like that?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Maybe a long post coming.....
Im a bit mad, maybe enraged is more like it.
I am in Adamsville Cemetery right now, but its not called the Adamsville Cemtery anymore......
View attachment 2183268
I drove through last week to see what it was like and I didnt see what I see now......
First off, EVERY confederate flagged gravestone is gone. Some gravestones, last time I was here, still had the stars and bars.
View attachment 2183271
There were Captains of the Confederate States of America's gravestones (also a Masonic judge).
View attachment 2183273
His grave now looks like this:
View attachment 2183276
There were many gravestones with Masonic squares compasses, of which only 2 exist now.
View attachment 2183274View attachment 2183275
Every single piece of confederate anything, is gone, and a lot of the Masonic stuff too. Replaced with a white cross. That Masonic handshake gravestone I posted earlier (from a previous trip)...it's gone too.
So much for supporting my theory........
No Adamsville video will be made........
I guess you'll just have to trust me, if you want to. This cemetery WAS absolutely a Masonic/Confederate graveyard. Now, there are just white crosses replacing ALL of that.
I cant even believe it......
Peoples gravestones.........
FYI, there's a big Rotary Club sign right at the enterance now......

Sorry to hear that. I may have some old B&W photos of the old gravestones.

Wasn't Granville Oury's the one with the black granite stars n bars? He was another interesting figure in AZ history...sorry to hear someone has taken it upon themselves to "disappear" the gravestones, but it's not the first time something like this has happened...I've seen sites burned down or bulldozed just to make them "go away" for all time. Sad.

 

[cuzimloony]

Sorry to hear that. I may have some old B&W photos of the old gravestones.

Wasn't Granville Oury's the one with the black granite stars n bars? He was another interesting figure in AZ history...sorry to hear someone has taken it upon themselves to "disappear" the gravestones, but it's not the first time something like this has happened...I've seen sites burned down or bulldozed just to make them "go away" for all time. Sad.

Erasing history.
Makes me livid.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The Pinal Historical Society had pics and maps of all the graves when they were restored back in the 1970's. Should still be there.

Just asking... the old Adamsville Cemetery is adjacent to, but not part of, Butte View Cemetery...is it possible that you came in the wrong side, the Butte View side? Or did they clean out the old, historic Adamsville cemetery?


Edit: This site has pics of all the old gravestones:

Adamsville Cemetery - Pinal County, Arizona | Burial & Family History Records

Burials in Adamsville Cemetery, Pinal County, Arizona. Find genealogy and surname records in Pinal County, Arizona

arizonagravestones.org

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Are you still out there at the cemetery?

Adamsville Cem. is at the top left. Butte View is on the bottom right:

Doug Stewart used to be the caretaker...he may know what's going on.

 

[cuzimloony]

Are you still out there at the cemetery?

Adamsville Cem. is at the top left. Butte View is on the bottom right:
View attachment 2183279

Doug Stewart used to be the caretaker...he may know what's going on.

Hmmmm this is a possibility. However, if my recollection is correct, from today,...... that is now farm land. If I close my eyes and "look" in that direction, I see cleared brush and flat land.
I will confirm with another drive by, not today however. Thank you for this. I will update you as soon as I know something......
Edit.. I have video. I will look at that and let you know.
Im excited. I hope I just f'd up earlier following google maps!

 

[cuzimloony]

Are you still out there at the cemetery?

Adamsville Cem. is at the top left. Butte View is on the bottom right:
View attachment 2183279

Doug Stewart used to be the caretaker...he may know what's going on.

I think you're right........ I'm going back tomorrow to verify. This is really bothering me.

 

[cuzimloony]

"He named his other mine Grant."
I have no rebuttal to this. It's a good point.
What comes to my "clearly biased, but maybe not wrong" brain is for me not to underestimate the reach of the Masons, Mormons or Confederates.
What do Masons typically work with? Not necessarily modern Masons in their suits and ties, but older Masons? They worked quarries. They worked mines. They excavated. They made cathedrals from raw materials. They dug, they built, all with stone and rock. The whole point of the square and compass is to work with unhewn stones from mountain quarries. They were called STONEMasons before being called Freemasons.
Where do you find large numbers of Masons? The American South, England and Germany are all at the TOP of the list, especially Scottish Rite in the south. Where did Jacob come from? What did he do, his profession? Where did he go through? (Natchez....a confederate/Masonic stronghold) and finally, who did he end up with? Union soldiers or confederates down here in Adamsville?
I cannot prove any theory, yet, BUT, as a Mason these kind of things are at the forfront of the brain and it seems purposefully(?) left out of the discussion, not by you or anyone here, but by the legend creators, I mean authors. I at least can prove that when Waltz was in Adamsville, he was surrounded by Masons and Confederetes.

Continuing....

I can go pull up hundreds of articles, magazines and books, maybe thousands at this point, talking about how white men are the biggest evil in society. Since there are possibly thousands of articles, written over a couple decades, it must be true right??
So....newspaper writers/authors mean close to nothing to me, especially grown men who changed their last names and pointed you in certain directions.....Goldwasser/Storm. I have a 1st Edition Barry Storm "Trail of the Lost Dutchman" produced by Goldwater and the entirety of the book is an attempt to keep you at Weavers Needle. The entire book is "Do not look anywhere but Weavers Needle. Only look here." Maybe that's what they really thought......but seeing as how neither man is honest enough to use his real last name, I put no faith in their stories. Admittedly, it was Goldwaters father who changed his name, but my point stands. Was Goldwater a Mason?
The Masonic reach is far. The first flag on the moon was Masonic. If not the first, then the second. Their funding is immeasurable and international. Their methods revolve around secrecy and they are directly related to quarries, mines, stonework, Mormons and Confederates and we can bring them all together, here in Adamsville.
Am I wrong? Quite possibly.....BUT, its an avenue I havent seen pursued and pursuing it will keep me from spinning in other people's circles, I think.
It's at least worth a shot until its a dead lead, which to me it isnt yet.
I mean have you EVER heard of the Masons in the Dutchman story? You've heard of Mormons and confederates, but probably NOT Masons.....right?
Look over there! Surely do not look over here............
Who does things like that? Who manipulates like that.........?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Exactly......
We have conflicting story after conflicting story. We have Waltz Maps, deerskin maps, peralta maps, stone maps, horse maps, this map that map.......
Kinda creates a bit of confusion in your head doesn't it........like those articles and maps are designed so that you can never nail anything down....
Who would do something like that?

My own take on it: Several people over the years have added their own twists to the tale. Just look at all the maps in Tom K.'s map booklet. Then go and look at all the newspaper articles...some from Tom Weedin...and then all the books. Or, a good overview of all the stories can be had in "Treasure Tales of the Superstitions" by Thomas Glover

Even the first, most widely available tale was swiped from the tale of the two Germans, or the "Jacobs and Ludi" story. This story of the two Germans was told by Julia, placing Waltz and his unnamed German partner in the tale instead of Jacobs and Ludi. Why she did this, we'll never know. Perhaps it was to throw off people who were pestering her for info about Waltz's "mine". This is the tale that she gave to Bick, and also Clark...but as told by each, the versions had slight differences. Both said they got it directly from Julia. Clark said he stayed at her house and she told him the story.

But the last thing I'd expect Bick or Clark to do, is publish the truth in a newspaper (assuming they thought the story was true...I seriously doubt that either believed the stories they wrote...and who knows how they changed what they heard from her).

Why there's so many maps, so many versions...I don't see an overarching, hidden hand of an organization manipulating and purposely obscuring the real story over decades...IMO it's mostly people wanting to tell a good story (Bick, Weedin, Clark, Arnold). Then we have the "gold rush" of people from outside the area (like the Howlands) who invented their own stories so as to appear "experts" on the subject and attract attention to themselves, and perhaps the odd grubstake here and there...after Ruth's death in the Supes, the floodgates were open nationwide, (Storm) attracting people from everywhere...this is when the map-making business really got off the ground...

IMO it's all BS, even Bick's story that started it all. The only thing I believe MAY be true, is that Waltz had a good amount of hand-cobbed gold ore under his bed when he died.

Just one man's opinion

 

[cuzimloony]

My own take on it: Several people over the years have added their own twists to the tale. Just look at all the maps in Tom K.'s map booklet. Then go and look at all the newspaper articles...some from Tom Weedin...and then all the books. Or, a good overview of all the stories can be had in "Treasure Tales of the Superstitions" by Thomas Glover

Even the first, most widely available tale was swiped from the tale of the two Germans, or the "Jacobs and Ludi" story. This story of the two Germans was told by Julia, placing Waltz and his unnamed German partner in the tale instead of Jacobs and Ludi. Why she did this, we'll never know. Perhaps it was to throw off people who were pestering her for info about Waltz's "mine". This is the tale that she gave to Bick, and also Clark...but as told by each, the versions had slight differences. Both said they got it directly from Julia. Clark said he stayed at her house and she told him the story.

But the last thing I'd expect Bick or Clark to do, is publish the truth in a newspaper (assuming they thought the story was true...I seriously doubt that either believed the stories they wrote...and who knows how they changed what they heard from her).

Why there's so many maps, so many versions...I don't see an overarching, hidden hand of an organization manipulating and purposely obscuring the real story over decades...IMO it's mostly people wanting to tell a good story (Bick, Weedin, Clark, Arnold). Then we have the "gold rush" of people from outside the area (like the Howlands) who invented their own stories so as to appear "experts" on the subject and attract attention to themselves, and perhaps the odd grubstake here and there...after Ruth's death in the Supes, the floodgates were open nationwide, (Storm) attracting people from everywhere...this is when the map-making business really got off the ground...

IMO it's all BS, even Bick's story that started it all. The only thing I believe MAY be true, is that Waltz had a good amount of hand-cobbed gold ore under his bed when he died.

Just one man's opinion

How many headshot murders happened in the Sups over a 150 year period?
I saw a list of maybe 10-15 murders (maybe more), mostly headshots from long range, over a 150 year period. Oroblanco made an extensive list on here at one point. Not random falls or injuries, but headshots.
It wasn't the same guy making all those headshots over a 150 period........(ending sometime in the 80's)
And then the Pinal AND Maricopa coroners labled almost every single one of them a suicide. Were the coroners working together or .......
Surely no hidden hand there.......

 

[PotBelly Jim]

BUT, its an avenue I havent seen pursued and pursuing it will keep me from spinning in other people's circles, I think.
It's at least worth a shot until its a dead lead, which to me it isnt yet.

That's all that really matters...let your research go where it will and have some fun along the way. We all have our own opinions and leads.

I mean have you EVER heard of the Masons in the Dutchman story? You've heard of Mormons and confederates, but probably NOT Masons.....right?

Actually, I looked into people who were Masons and had connections to the LDM story quite a few years ago. I think there may be something there. But as I said before, I came away with the impression that Masonic involvement in the story was ancillary to the LDS (not LDM...LDS as in Latter Day Saints). I believed at the time that a Mason or two were brought in due to their connections to Mormons who happened to be lodge members as well. I also believe there was some misdirection associated with that. But I didn't get the impression it was a widespread conspiracy. Just guys trying to protect a source of gold, and they got wealthy in the process.

You may find something else entirely, who knows?

 

[cuzimloony]

"I couldn't find much info on an organization "sworn" to secrecy..."

....and what about those headshot from long distance suicides that happened over, say...... 7 generations??
Nothing to see here either......?

Edit: rereading this post it may sound rude. Imagine me smiling and carrying on. This was all in jest and I mean no offense. All said with a smile and good intentions.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

"I couldn't find much info on an organization "sworn" to secrecy..."

....and what about those headshot from long distance suicides??
Nothing to see here either......?

For being sworn to secrecy, it sure is easy to find out who they were

And as far as headshots, most that can hike in those mountains can also probably do that. That being said, I couldn't make a long list of people who were shot in the Supes, in the head, at long distance. I would be interested in seeing such a list.

Many deaths in the desert...and many called suicides...it's easier for the cops that way...they don't have to spend time and funds investigating a possible murder that they know they can never solve, much less gather enough evidence for prosecution. Total waste of time

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Edit: rereading this post it may sound rude. Imagine me smiling and carrying on. This was all in jest and I mean no offense. All said with a smile and good intentions.

Thanks, but no need to explain. I get it

I do miss the LDM Fight Club, but it seems our most pugilistic (and entertaining) members are all sitting around a campfire, arguing and insulting each other in the finest tradition...topside.

 

[cuzimloony]

For being sworn to secrecy, it sure is easy to find out who they were

And as far as headshots, most that can hike in those mountains can also probably do that. That being said, I couldn't make a long list of people who were shot in the Supes, in the head, at long distance. I would be interested in seeing such a list.

Many deaths in the desert...and many called suicides...it's easier for the cops that way...they don't have to spend time and funds investigating a possible murder that they know they can never solve, much less gather enough evidence for prosecution. Total waste of time

"Sworn to secrecy, know who they were." (Paraphrase)
Probably more times than not. Some of us just come out and say we are We'll even invite non Masons to Masonic Radio nets lol but yes I agree. Do you know if they had Masonic objectives there? Masonic could be political or anything really.... Masons choose sides and have goals too, especially individual Lodges.
You made a statement they "brought in the Masons" or something to that affect earlier. What was this for? Actual stonemasonry? Im curious why you'd need to "bring in" Masons, unless of course we are talking about stonemasons. Maybe I read that wrong....

About the list: I will get that to you. I read it the other day and it will be in my history. It's quite the list. Last head shot was early 80's I think. Its one of those things where you say.....
"ok, yeah people all die in the desert."
"Oh, they were all shot?"
"Huh, all in the head with rifle calibers?"
"All ruled suicide?"
"...and over a 7ish generational period"
"Huh"
"All of them?"
Could be incompteance or laziness on the part of the coroners.....
Thats an assumption though....(just like Im doing too but I lean toward conspiracies...ive lived through covid and epstein)
....and I realize Im the young inexperienced guy here. I get it and Im doing my best to soak in everything everyone says. BUT, I too have my own experiences and.....after Epstein and Covid....and then looking back through history at the same types of political/industrial/media operiations............. I have spidey senses with the Waltz thing. Maps galore. Stories galore. Headshots galore. Masons galore. Towns created by Masons, near train tracks. There is a KCG (you brought them up...but Im not trying to say its them with Waltz) but there IS an old KCG map that leads to Adamsville too, which actually MAKES SENSE because Adamsville was Masonic/Confederate from the get-go...but More maps!! (Ive posted this map before, maybe even in this thread).
...and when I see all this, it's somehow.....familiar. I think I recognize that tactics and techniques of certain groups, Masons especially, and......spidey senses is all I got, and some circumstancial and strange evidence.
I appreciate the discussion. Ive learned more here from you in the last 10 messages than any of Barry Storms books

 

[markmar]

Talking about secrecy. If Waltz wanted to give the mine to Julia and Holmes, then he just could tell them the exact distance and orientation from Weaver's Needle, and not a 2,5 mile radius from WN. The clues were/are correct but very hard to recognize in a maze of hills and boulders.
Sometimes the solve is in front of us but we have not the imagination and the skills to recognize it. We still reject the obvious in exchange the projection of our theories. Nobody search in the way the old timers did, by using the known clues, but the most now are coming with already plans of research based in imaginable clues which have been distorted in regards to match their region of interest.
Have you asked yourself how many times researchers have walked few dozen yards from the LDM? I believe many, and they still walking.

 

[cuzimloony]

Speaking of Adamsville.....
In between Florence Junction and Florence (basically Adamsville), you pass a few of these guys alongside 79.
Center spire cut out, Id say, over 100 years ago.......