Whiskey Springs Maps

[cuzimloony]

Talking about secrecy. If Waltz wanted to give the mine to Julia and Holmes, then he just could tell them the exact distance and orientation from Weaver's Needle, and not a 2,5 mile radius from WN. The clues were/are correct but very hard to recognize in a maze of hills and boulders.
Sometimes the solve is in front of us but we have not the imagination and the skills to recognize it. We still reject the obvious in exchange the projection of our theories. Nobody search in the way the old timers did, by using the known clues, but the most now are coming with already plans of research based in imaginable clues which have been distorted in regards to match their region of interest.
Have you asked yourself how many times researchers have walked few dozen yards from the LDM? I believe many, and they still walking.

"Plans of research, imaginable clues, region of interest"
More garbage from marcmar.
Im good at Mason stuff. If there is a connection (and there absolutely is at Adamsville), Ill explore it because its what I can best contribute to the puzzle. Other people have other skills. They contribute accordingly. You have none but circle making apparently.
You seem to know where it is but havent told us where so........circles.
Thanks for the tip!

 

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[markmar]

"Plans of research, imaginable clues, region of interest"
More garbage from marcmar.
Im good at Mason stuff. If there is a connection, Ill explore it because its what I can best contribute to the puzzle. Other peopke have other skills. They contribute accordingly. You have none but circle making apparently.
You seem to know where it is but havent told us where so........circles.
Thanks for the tip!

So garbage eh..
Time will come when you will knee and kiss the tip of my shoes. Listen if you want to "see".

 

[cuzimloony]

So garbage eh..
Time will come when you will knee and kiss my the tip of my shoes. Listen if you want to "see".

>"See"
>"posts nothing but blurry pictures"
Pick one.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

You made a statement they "brought in the Masons" or something to that affect earlier. What was this for?

One was a County Attorney for the county in which a gold source was being surreptitiously exploited. The other was a well-known mining man. Both men were Masons, politically connected and useful to the people who wanted to exploit the find without the landowner's knowledge. They explained their wealth and newfound prosperity from this by saying they had grubstaked a lucky miner that had hit a strike in Alaska.

The conspirators thought they had found and were working the LDM.

Just because I don't put much stock in an overarching conspiracy doesn't mean there wasn't one I'm looking forward to reading any future research you have on it.

Also let us know if the Adamsville Cemetery is still intact next time you're out that way...

 

[markmar]

>"See"
>"posts nothing but blurry pictures"
Pick one.

The word "see" was a metaphor for "you will see the things in another way, with an open mind". Greek philosophers used this term: "Listen in regards to see".
Also the word was not used to see "blurry" ( unfortunately not recognizable location ) pictures.

 

[cuzimloony]

"One was a County Attorney for the county in which a gold source was being surreptitiously exploited. The other was a well-known mining man. Both men were Masons, politically connected and useful to the people who wanted to exploit the find without the landowner's knowledge. They explained their wealth and newfound prosperity from this by saying they had grubstaked a lucky miner that had hit a strike in Alaska.

The conspirators thought they had found and were working the LDM."

Wow. Lol.......

 

[cuzimloony]

Below is not my list. It was mostly written here on tnet by Matthew Roberts and from that list I cherry picked what you see below in order to illustrate the number of missing heads and headshots.
It could be nothing BUT there is an excessive amount of missing heads and headshots here (maybe a natural thing for the sups, but maybe not) and well beyond the time when apaches were running these hills.

1896 – A prospector named Elisha Marcus Reavis, who was better known in the area as the “Madman of the Superstitions” or the “Old Hermit” because he never shaved or cut his hair; he seldom bathed and rumors said he was prone to running naked through the canyons, firing a pistol into the sky. Sure that he was “mad,” even the Apache left him alone. When Reavis hadn’t been seen in some time, one of his few friends William Knight went to check on him. The nearly 70 year-old man was found dead about four miles south of his home on a trail near Roger’s Canyon. His head had been severed from his body and was lying several feet away.

1927 – A New Jersey man and his sons were hiking the mountain when rocks began to roll down on them from the cliffs above, as if someone had pushed the boulders. One of the boys’ legs was crushed. Just a year later, two deer hunters were driven off the mountain, when again rolling boulders appeared to have been pushed by someone or “something” down the mountain towards them.

1931 - Adolpf Ruth. 'nuff said.

1937 – An old prospector by the name of Guy “Hematite” Frink was lucky enough to return from the mountain with a number of rich gold samples. In November, he was found shot in the stomach on the side of a trail in or near La Barge Canyon. Next to his decomposing body was a small sack of gold ore.

In 1945 – A book about the Lost Dutchman Mine was written by Barry Storm, who claimed to have narrowly escaped from a mysterious sniper. Storm speculated that Adolph Ruth might have been a victim of the same sniper shooting at him.

1947 – A prospector name James A. Cravey made a much-publicized trip into the Superstition canyons by helicopter, searching for the Lost Dutchman Mine. The pilot set him down in La Barge Canyon, close to Weaver’s Needle. When Cravey failed to hike out as planned, a search was started and although his camp was found, Cravey was not.
The following February, Cravey’s headless skeleton was found in a canyon, a good distance from his camp. It was tied in a blanket and his skull was found about thirty feet away. The coroner’s jury ruled that there was “no evidence of foul play.”

1951 – Dr. John Burns, a physician from Oregon, was found shot to death on Superstition Mountain. The “official” ruling was that the death was accidental even though there was no evidence to support the finding.

1952 – A man named Joseph Kelley of Dayton, Ohio was also searching for the Lost Dutchman gold mine. He vanished and was never seen alive again. His skeleton was discovered near Weaver’s Needle two years later. The bullet hole in his skull was ruled an accidental shooting incident. Once again, no evidence supported this finding.

1955 – Charles Massey, who was hunting with a .22 rifle, was found shot between the eyes by a heavy-caliber rifle bullet. The coroner ruled it an accidental death resulting from a ricochet even though no one with a heavy-caliber firearm was ever identified.

1956 – A man from Brooklyn, New York reported to police that his brother, Martin Zywotho, who he believed was searching for the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, had been missing for several weeks. A month later, the missing man’s body was found with a bullet hole above his right temple. Although his gun was found under the body, the death was ruled suicide.

1960 – A group of hikers found a headless skeleton near the foot of a cliff on Superstition Mountain. Four days later, an investigation determined it belonged to an Austrian student named Franz Harrier.

1961 – A family picnicking near the edge of the mountain discovered the body of Hilmer Charles Bohen buried beneath the sand in a shallow grave. Bohen was a Utah prospector who had been shot in the back. No clues as to who committed the murder were found.

1961 – Two months later, another prospector from Denver named Walter J. Mowry was found in Needle Canyon. His bullet-riddled body was removed to the Pinal County coroner, who incredibly ruled it a suicide.

1961 – Police began searching for a prospector by the name of Jay Clapp, who had been working on Superstition Mountain on and off for a decade and a half. Clapp had been missing since July. After a thorough search, the hunt was called off. Three years later his headless skeleton was finally discovered.

1976 – A prospector named Howard Polling was found dead of a gunshot wound. The following year another man named Dennis Brown, was also found dead of a gunshot wound. No one was ever found to have murdered either man.

1978 – A man named Manuel Valdez was murdered in the Superstitions. His head was missing and no suspects were ever found.

An unidentified man’s remains were discovered on December 30, 1992 in the Superstition Wilderness area. Cause of death was a gun-shot wound. It is believed the man was searching for the Lost Dutchman gold mine. No suspect was ever identified.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gollum (tnet member) in response to this post says he was shot at too off Peralta.

There are many more deaths, obviously, but those not mentioned above seemed normal and natural ways to die in the sups. These deaths above were suspicious and when I count up the head shots and missing heads, a little light goes off inside.
All those beheadings/headshots.....thats a pattern.

Anyhow. If I only had a brain.... What was the Wizard of Oz REALLY about anyway..........? That movie is a Master class in Masonic symbolism......

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Below is not my list. It was mostly written here on tnet by Matthew Roberts and from that list I cherry picked what you see below in order to illustrate the number of missing heads and headshots.


There are many more deaths, obviously, but those not mentioned above seemed normal and natural ways to die in the sups. These deaths above were suspicious and when I count up the head shots and missing heads, a little light goes off inside.
All those beheadings/headshots.....thats a pattern.
....<snip>.....
Anyhow. If I only had a brain.... What was the Wizard of Oz REALLY about anyway..........? That movie is a Master class in Masonic symbolism......

Thanks, Joe, for taking the time to compile that list.

I don't think the "Wizard of Oz" has anything to do with Freemasonry, other than so many religious movements taking various aspects and beliefs from Masons and other organizations based on fairly old religious philosophy. But yes, I can see where the story in general, and skulls, might get your hackles up I looked it up and the guy who wrote it wasn't a Mason...but he was a member of something that may have taken key aspects of ancient beliefs from the middle east, just like the Masons, Shriners, etc. So similarities abound.

There was also a story, which I'm sure you've seen, that there were a bunch of Apaches loose in the Supes, called the "Black Hand". Some people swore they were real. Some thought it was these Apaches removing said heads from shoulders. I never believed that, but what do I know?

Meh...I think skulls just come loose from bodies out in the desert. Especially if they're down in a wash and it rains good, tumbling things around. Also might have some help from the local coyotes, skunks, bobcats, lions, and bears.

All that being said, looking forward to anything you may dig up on it. Have fun out there, Amigo!

 

[cuzimloony]

If you think the Wizard of Oz has nothing to do with Masonry.........we need to talk I'm assuming you haven't read through the 1st three degrees. They're online. Read them if you want a bore fest with deep knowledge....you'll change your mind, I assure you.

The guy who wrote it was a Theosophist, not a Mason. Agreed. I have many of the books upstairs. They are different than the movie as well. I read them to my kids. Its not "mixing and matching different philosophies" They're all saying the same thing. Every character in the Wizard of Oz is represented in the 1st three degrees of Masonry (albeit with different names). The witches, Dorothy, the 3 knocks, the yellow brick road, Oz itself, the Wizard, Glenda, the scarecrow, tinman and lion, every one is from the degrees of Masonry IF you know what they represent. They are also in other Hollywood movies too, not mixed and matched, exactly the same, well...if you know what they're symbolically saying.

The matrix is one. Same characters (Morpheus, Trinity, Neo......Scarecrow, Tinman, Lion......thought, desire, action....or brain, heart, guts (where you get your nerve!) ....whatever..always some variant of that. Look for a "smart one" a "a caring one" and a "courageous one" in movie plots and you'll know. )

Have you seen the Matrix? Its a Keanu Reeves movie with Lawrence Fishburn. Fantastic movie for Masonic symbolism, just like the Wizard of Oz. Anyway...

So, Ill rephrase. To your point, you might be technically right. Maybe The Wizard of Oz did not come from Masonry, but they teach the same lessons, have the same characters (different names) and quite possibly came from the same source tradition, not mixed and matched, but symbolically exactly the same. If someone hadn't read the degrees, Im not sure how they could come to a strong conclusion and deny a connection, and if they DID read the degrees and denied the connection, I'd be forced to make certain assumptions about their understanding of what they read. Thats why I assume you havent read them because I know you're very smart.

It's an ancient wisdom and you do not need to be a Mason to get it. They (we) are just carriers (and not the only ones) of the ancient tradition, or a remnant of it. The guy who wrote the Wizard of Oz, got it (and he hung out with and wrote degrees with, Masons, so him not being a Mason himself is kind of moot).
Point being.....Masonry not required.

Is any of that imortant??
Yes.
Why?
Masons make maps and they create symbols, lots of them (and have for thousands of years...even ancient Catholic churches are full of Masonic symbols. Who built them??lol) even if they may not be part of some conspiracy. The LUE map is an example of a Masonic map, pyramids, all seeing eyes, pillars, stairsteps, bricks, key words in the caption, etc.... Its not the only one made by a Mason, not by a long shot. Do you know how many Pirates were Masons? (pirate symbol = severed head) More than a few. Understanding their symbols would be important in figuring those out, no? Maybe not. Maybe it applies here, maybe it doesnt. I dont know. Im trying.

There sure are a lot of Superstition area maps out there that nobody has any idea of their real origin, and there sure were a slew of Masons setting up towns around the Sups, weren't there? You know, putting symbols on stone and paper is kinda "their thing" Was Tumlinson a Mason.....? His uncle sure made sturdy chimneys. 5 pointed stars in circles come up a lot with us. Maybe relevant here, maybe not.....Heck, theres even a faily common tradition in Latin America where they too have Masons in leadership roles, much like rich mining families. Lololol yes. EVERYTHING is masonic. Lol. Im just saying.....jokes aside, their reach is far is all.

I know Masons have looked at these maps before and haven't said much. Doesn't mean I wont.....
I also know of Masons who can take maps and symbols (and millions of dollars) and dig stuff up. (Im thinking of Kenworthy if Im not mistaken about the stories).

About the decapitated heads... I thought you'd say "nothing to see here." Thats why I put "excessive" and made sure to include the one covered in cloth. People dont get headshotted falling down ravines either decade after decade after decade. But I agree, brains may be tasty to critters and necks are soft.
When my folks moved to western NC, close to Mt. Mitchell, I remember hearing lots of stories of missing hikers being found. I never remeber their heads being missing though and there sure are lots of critters and cliffs in western NC. Odd that so many heads being lost seems to be a middle eastern, and superstition phenomena.
At least the decapitations and head shots seemed to have stopped according to that list. I guess making it a Wilderness Area meant that people get to keep their heads now. Surely the topography hasn't changed.......I guess they just got the memo.


Seems like we may be in two different camps. Either everything is a conspiracy, or nothing is!!
Maybe I see too much hidden hand. But look back at history......isn't it always there? Especially during war or expansion.
Loooool
Good times.
Epstein....covid....southerners and Masons.....conspiracies are bound to be true at some point, no?
Hahaha

 

[cuzimloony]

"One was a County Attorney for the county in which a gold source was being surreptitiously exploited. The other was a well-known mining man. Both men were Masons, politically connected and useful to the people who wanted to exploit the find without the landowner's knowledge. They explained their wealth and newfound prosperity from this by saying they had grubstaked a lucky miner that had hit a strike in Alaska.

The conspirators thought they had found and were working the LDM."

Wow. Lol.......

There are federal judges and people who hung out with Barry Goldwater, at his house, doing ham radio stuff, that are members of my Lodge. Yes that ham radio one is a very old gentlemam......Now that I think about it, I know someone who went through Royal Arch degrees with him too.....
Anyway, Ive heard some stories.....
Im not going to question this one

 

[Idahodutch]

I think there are secret societies, and I think there are the masses that are on the daily grind. Including many in the secret societies. Then I think there are those that were on the daily grind. that pull back and reassess. I’m sure there are more. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Only 10 days till Christmas ….🎅
Happy holidays 👍

 

[cuzimloony]

PotBelly stated:
"IMO it's all BS, even Bick's story that started it all. The only thing I believe MAY be true, is that Waltz had a good amount of hand-cobbed gold ore under his bed when he died."

......and we can't even prove where he got that........... no gold in the sups matches unless we consider rumors, etc... (which is irrelevant to anyone who looking for "insert legend here" in the Sups)
But we got this map that map this story that story Aztec, Jesuit, Mormon, Peralta, KGC, Spanish, Mexican, little people, aliens, 6 foot tall Whiskey Springs monsters, thunder Gods, etc.... (Ive been to the Rendevouz twice and both times Salvatore was there talking about aliens and little people...marcmar isn't wrong about that).
Seems like they named them all but one.
I am awed.
A fantastic operation...and this is BEFORE the CIA.
The CIA are really just the inheritors of the ancient consciousness science, those masters of confusion and misdirection.
Lololololololol
Im clearly joking.....but only kinda.

 

[cuzimloony]

So why did the beheadings and head shots stop when the Wilderness Area came into effect? (Just a temporal association. It could have been a different catylist) Did the cliffs get softer? Animals not hungry anymore? Hikers/prospecters stop falling and putting their heads in front of bullets or.....did the bullets stop coming? I think maybe the latter....but maybe not. Gollum did say he was shot at too, but he still has his head as far as I know.

Look at all those headshots/beheadings. "Nothing to see here...normal stuff. Heads obviously fall off all the time."
Look at those beheading just all of a sudden stop.
Probably nothing to see there either....right?

Now you didnt say that last part. Im just playing a bit....but Im curious how this would be explained in light of heads normally naturally falling off before 1980ish and now they're not anymore.

 

[Idahodutch]

I sure hope none of us accidentally puts our head in front of bullets 😁👌

 

[markmar]

"(pirate symbol = severed head)". The tatoo I have on my right arm, made 45 years ago.

 

[SPARTANOC]

So why did the beheadings and head shots stop when the Wilderness Area came into effect? (Just a temporal association. It could have been a different catylist) Did the cliffs get softer? Animals not hungry anymore? Hikers/prospecters stop falling and putting their heads in front of bullets or.....did the bullets stop coming? I think maybe the latter....but maybe not. Gollum did say he was shot at too, but he still has his head as far as I know.

Look at all those headshots/beheadings. "Nothing to see here...normal stuff. Heads obviously fall off all the time."
Look at those beheading just all of a sudden stop.
Probably nothing to see there either....right?

Now you didnt say that last part. Im just playing a bit....but Im curious how this would be explained in light of heads normally naturally falling off before 1980ish and now they're not anymore.

It is difficult to accept that - there was nothing going on in the Supes, back then - when it comes to the beheading of those who dared to go in. My first inclination was to believe there were still, some Apache holding out deep in there (the Supes), but seeing the deaths continue long after 1980 - got me thinking that, the whole 'Black Hand' society might just be a real thing. Or at the very least - a small group back there - watching over a particular area and protecting their own interests. I do find it interesting that many of the deaths revolved around Weaver's Needle - and that landmark is important to the Natives. So, could it possible that some type of "local" is guarding a sacred area of sorts.

I certainly can't find much on the 'Black Hand' lore, but if I remember correctly - that some here on TN that DO have some input/knowledge of the subject.

-SpartanOC

 

[cuzimloony]

It is difficult to accept that - there was nothing going on in the Supes, back then - when it comes to the beheading of those who dared to go in. My first inclination was to believe there were still, some Apache holding out deep in there (the Supes), but seeing the deaths continue long after 1980 - got me thinking that, the whole 'Black Hand' society might just be a real thing. Or at the very least - a small group back there - watching over a particular area and protecting their own interests. I do find it interesting that many of the deaths revolved around Weaver's Needle - and that landmark is important to the Natives. So, could it possible that some type of "local" is guarding a sacred area of sorts.

I certainly can't find much on the 'Black Hand' lore, but if I remember correctly - that some here on TN that DO have some input/knowledge of the subject.

-SpartanOC

Im not sure where the Black Hand stuff came from (maybe you meant Hidden Hand?). Im also not sure Apaches would be exclusively headshotting and beheading either. That is a symbolic pattern meant to send a message, imo....not a native one. Were the Apache's known for beheading the Hopi? I don't think so.... Violent sure. Focusing on the head? I don't think so....... (I honestly dont know, hence I dont THINK so). I would tentatively (until more light is shed) disagree that these would be apache holdouts up until the 1980's....
My conspiracy leaning mind tends to this: Some area was being protected for about 100 years ish and anytime someone got close, they either lost their brain (gunshot) or their whole head. Then when the AZ made the Wilderness Area eliminating any chance of a major recovery, well..... no need to protect it anymore. Uncle Sam does it now.
But I could be wrong. It could be Waltz relatives, or Apache, or Peraltas, or aliens, or random cowboys, or treasure hunters, or 6-foot flying Whiskey Springs monsters, or little people, or Aztec, or thunder Gods, or KCG or Mexicans or Afghani's (why not!) Add it to the list boys!

 

[cuzimloony]

"(pirate symbol = severed head)". The tatoo I have on my right hand, made 45 years ago.

That's not a hand but I approve of your tattoo. Very nice. I really like pirate themes Are you big into pirate treasure stories marcmar? I used to live in Tampa, FL....a city founded by pirates.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Im not sure where the Black Hand stuff came from (maybe you meant Hidden Hand?). Im also not sure Apaches would be exclusively headshotting and beheading either. That is a symbolic pattern meant to send a message, imo....not a native one. Were the Apache's known for beheading the Hopi? I don't think so.... Violent sure. Focusing on the head? I don't think so....... I would tentatively (until more light is shed) disagree that these would be apache holdouts up until the 1980's....

I think Spartan was quoting me. I misspoke. It's "Black Legion". Wayne did a Youtube video on it.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I don't think the "Wizard of Oz" has anything to do with Freemasonry, other than so many religious movements taking various aspects and beliefs from Masons and other organizations based on fairly old religious philosophy.

I was wrong about the Wizard of Oz not having anything to do with Freemasonry. Our amigo cuzimloony has taken the time to privately correct my ignorance on this, for which I'm grateful. Please carry on, and Merry Christmas to everyone!