Whiskey Springs Maps

A quick question:
I lived in Mexico City for about a year. (That's not a question)
I still spend a lot of time in Manzanillo each year, as I found my wife there.....(Thats not a question either)
Here's the question: The stone work made by the Aztecs in Mexico, that which survives, looks way more "advanced" than this head. This was my wife's first observation when I mentioned "Aztec" in reference to the head. She chuckled, said "no way, this does not look Aztec," and you know, I have to agree with her.
How would you explain the difference in the stone work the Aztecs definitely made, with this "lower quality craftsmanship" head in the Sups that they allegedly made?
And.....if the head is Aztec, how would you explain the change in sculpting style/quality between here and there? Meaning....who along the way helped them "get better" at stonework in the time between this head was made and their temples built in the middle of a giant lake in Tenochtitlan?
There are serious questions. Im not belittling your opinion. Im actually curious about your perspective.

I got your question. There is a big difference between a skilled stoneworker who was trained to do carvings and statues on temples, and a common warrior or a head priest who were engaged to transport and to hide few bodies and some valuable stuff. They didn't need a craftman in regards to make a simple marker. They didn't want a piece of art which would reveal their presence and origin, but something simple and symbolic.
They wanted their motherland to remain secret and for that reason choose an European-Middle East carving style for that face. That corner shape at the eye is more used in Egyptian paintings and carvings. The face it's not only related to their motherland, but also reveals the Aztec origin which was primarily a mix of Europeans-Middle Easterns and Toltecs.
 

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I got your question. There is a big difference between a skilled stoneworker who was trained to do carvings and statues on temples, and a common warrior or a head priest who were engaged to transport and to hide few bodies and some valuable stuff. They didn't need a craftman in regards to make a simple marker. They didn't want a piece of art which would reveal their presence and origin, but something simple and symbolic.
They wanted their motherland to remain secret and for that reason choose an European-Middle East carving style for that face. That corner shape at the eye is more used in Egyptian paintings and carvings. The face it's not only related to their motherland, but also reveals the Aztec origin which was primarily a mix of Europeans-Middle Easterns and Toltecs.
If the Aztecs built this before they went to Tenochtitlan, then they wouldn't have seen a European face, right?
They aren't some ancient race. England had fully functioning universities while the Aztecs just got in to power and were sacrificing to rain gods. ....and Mexicans in general, in the country at that time didn't venture much into modern AZ, because they would be killed by Indians. It took the spanish with metal and horses to really change that, at least according to Rudo Ensayo.
So, Im a bit confused......
And whoa......
What is all that about the Aztec origins?
New to me......please go on. :)
Im interested....
 

If the Aztecs built this before they went to Tenochtitlan, then they wouldn't have seen a European face, right?
They aren't some ancient race. England had fully functioning universities while the Aztecs just got in to power and were sacrificing to rain gods. ....and Mexicans in general, in the country at that time didn't venture much into modern AZ, because they would be killed by Indians. It took the spanish with metal and horses to really change that, at least according to Rudo Ensayo.
So, Im a bit confused......
And whoa......
What is all that about the Aztec origins?
New to me......please go on. :)
Im interested....
IMO, the Aztecs build this face at the end of their empire, when carried their treasure and Montezuma body to their motherland Chicomoztoc. They couldn't built it before went to Tenochtitlan, because logicaly they couldn't know where would end with their capital and state.
Aztec origin was a mix of Middle Easterns and Toltecs. Later Toltecs revolted and prevailed over the foreings, kept what good learned from them in different domains, but continued with their culture, and after united with other different tribes, made the Aztec nation. Actually, Chicomoztoc is Cibola with the seven Solomon's ancient gold mines.
You can read the text written on the Tucson artifacts in regards to learn about the beginning of the Aztec nation. The artifacts are not fake like some "experts " state, but very real.
 

Has the beginning on its back and the future in front.
IMO, the Aztecs build this face at the end of their empire, when carried their treasure and Montezuma body to their motherland Chicomoztoc.
If they built this at the END of their empire, and this face is looking toward Tenochtitlan, as you say, then the past is in front, since it's looking toward their ruined empire. Meaning they're headed away from where this thing is looking......
You're making your own circles again man, but I appreciate the effort. I did ask. Thank you!
 

If they built this at the END of their empire, and this face is looking toward Tenochtitlan, as you say, then the past is in front, since it's looking toward their ruined empire. Meaning they're headed away from where this thing is looking......
You're making your own circles again man, but I appreciate the effort. I did ask. Thank you!
I believe they wanted to show their evolution path, and not literally what you mean. Sometimes things have double meanings and very easy cαn change poles.
There could be hundreds of opinions in regards to that rock head, and you just heard one of them. I could be wrong if someone else will prove me wrong, but until then...
 

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I believe they wanted to show their evolution path, and not literally what you mean. Sometimes things have double meanings and very easy cαn change poles.
There could be hundreds of opinions in regards to that rock head, and you just heard one of them. I could be wrong if someone else will prove me wrong, but until then...
I asked your opinion.
You gave it.
No complaints on my end.
Thanks you!
 

On the way to Miner's Needle from Peralta you pass this spot. There is a body buried here. That of a US soldier in an unmarked grave, a victim of the Indian Wars.
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As seen at Whisky Springs (still going through those pics.....)
They didn't even bother hiding it.....
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I'm working on that Adamsville video (I hope it's going to be interesting for everyone...) and I stumbled across this doing some research. Have you seen this before?View attachment 2183075View attachment 2183076
Hi Joe,
No, I haven't seen that before. Very cool pics from you and Paul. I have a map around here somewhere that has enough detail to show where each building was, I'll post it if I can track it down. If you don't already have it ;)

A few years back I did some digging on the movements of Sherrod Hunter's advance cavalry force that went along the river burning supplies before the California column got there. Kind of a cool spy story. Ammi White, the owner of White's Mill, had prior knowledge of the CA column's advance into the territory, and their planned route. He had purchased a bunch of foodstuffs etc. from the Indians and pre-positioned it for them.

At the same time, the Confederates also had a spy somewhere and learned what White was up to. So they went along the river and burned all the supplies, just before the Californians got there...they timed it so there would be no time to replace the supplies...they actually saw the Union troops coming while they were destroying supplies at Stanwix Station, so they turned back at that point.

They went back to White's Mill, took Ammi White prisoner as a spy, then changed into civilian clothes. Soon enough, an advance force of Union troops showed up at White's Mill. One of the Confederates was impersonating White. The Confederates took the Union Capt. prisoner, then took him and White back to New Mexico as POW's.

They weren't held long, as that Union column took charge in NM territory (which included AZ at the time) after the Battle of Glorieta Pass and it's leader, Col. Carleton, was placed in charge of the territory. He was a general then, IIRC.

One of those Confederate troops that burned the supplies on the Gila, and escorted the POWs back to NM, was none other than Jack Swilling.

The story of how Jack Swilling, Jacob Snively (of Lost Adams Diggins), Hunter and Baylor got together and raised troops leading up to the Civil War is quite interesting.

Carleton had been informed that Snively was a Confederate spy and was trying to lay hands on him. Strangely enough, Carleton allowed Swilling to roam freely in NM Territory...which kind of suggests that he and Swilling had come to some sort of agreement. Keep in mind that Carleton had imposed martial law, and nobody was allowed loose in the territory without written permission from him. One also had to swear an oath of loyalty to the Union in Santa Fe. So why was Swilling allowed to go free?

My theory is that Swilling knew Mangas Coloradas, and Carleton wanted that guy bad. This is kind of supported by the fact that Swilling joined the Walker Party at Santa Fe, and the first thing they did was link up with some Army troops and take Mangas prisoner.

I wonder if the Confederates buried any thing on their hasty retreat out of AZ? :laughing7: White's Mill and the Adamsville area was where they started moving fast back to NM proper.

Caveat: This is all from memory, which isn't the best these days ;)
 

Hi Joe,
No, I haven't seen that before. Very cool pics from you and Paul. I have a map around here somewhere that has enough detail to show where each building was, I'll post it if I can track it down. If you don't already have it ;)

A few years back I did some digging on the movements of Sherrod Hunter's advance cavalry force that went along the river burning supplies before the California column got there. Kind of a cool spy story. Ammi White, the owner of White's Mill, had prior knowledge of the CA column's advance into the territory, and their planned route. He had purchased a bunch of foodstuffs etc. from the Indians and pre-positioned it for them.

At the same time, the Confederates also had a spy somewhere and learned what White was up to. So they went along the river and burned all the supplies, just before the Californians got there...they timed it so there would be no time to replace the supplies...they actually saw the Union troops coming while they were destroying supplies at Stanwix Station, so they turned back at that point.

They went back to White's Mill, took Ammi White prisoner as a spy, then changed into civilian clothes. Soon enough, an advance force of Union troops showed up at White's Mill. One of the Confederates was impersonating White. The Confederates took the Union Capt. prisoner, then took him and White back to New Mexico as POW's.

They weren't held long, as that Union column took charge in NM territory (which included AZ at the time) after the Battle of Glorieta Pass and it's leader, Col. Carleton, was placed in charge of the territory. He was a general then, IIRC.

One of those Confederate troops that burned the supplies on the Gila, and escorted the POWs back to NM, was none other than Jack Swilling.

The story of how Jack Swilling, Jacob Snively (of Lost Adams Diggins), Hunter and Baylor got together and raised troops leading up to the Civil War is quite interesting.

Carleton had been informed that Snively was a Confederate spy and was trying to lay hands on him. Strangely enough, Carleton allowed Swilling to roam freely in NM Territory...which kind of suggests that he and Swilling had come to some sort of agreement. Keep in mind that Carleton had imposed martial law, and nobody was allowed loose in the territory without written permission from him. One also had to swear an oath of loyalty to the Union in Santa Fe. So why was Swilling allowed to go free?

My theory is that Swilling knew Mangas Coloradas, and Carleton wanted that guy bad. This is kind of supported by the fact that Swilling joined the Walker Party at Santa Fe, and the first thing they did was link up with some Army troops and take Mangas prisoner.

I wonder if the Confederates buried any thing on their hasty retreat out of AZ? :laughing7: White's Mill and the Adamsville area was where they started moving fast back to NM proper.

Caveat: This is all from memory, which isn't the best these days ;)
Great story! I have never heard that before....and oddly enough, it lines up quite nicely with my plan for the Adamsville video. The confederate retreat, in the end, was not so hasty in the long run. They never left. Many, many confederates are buried there. Actually, the Adamsville cemetary is more-or-less a Masonic/Confederate cemetary (Ancient Order of United Workers) Stars and bars, rank and all on the gravestones (and squares and compass'). I don't want to let the cat out of the bag too much, but my walk through Adamsville will be focusing on those Mormons, Masons and Confederates who founded, ran, and are now buried in that town. FYI, Mormonism and Masonry are, in many cases, for all intents and purposes....inseparable, especially when we talk about town founders, store owners, politicians, judges and leaders of the community. Think about Joseph Smith (a Freemason himself) and his saying that, "Not all Mormons need be Masons, but if you want to be the best Mormon you can be, you should also be a Freemason." (Paraphrasing) Those weren't just MORMAN pioneers and I think I have insight other might not..... More was going on there than meets the eye, imo and I hope to illucidate that in the video. This is a Dutchman angle that, to my knowledge, has never been discussed and absolutely SHOULD be. Did Jacob only go to Adamsville for flour? Or, did he go get flour on Lodge nights? What kind of men would he be seeing and hanging with there? What fraternal organizations were the grown men of that town involved in and...how much did Jacob participate?
The territorial Lodge in the area was CHARTERED in 1890, BUT in order to get a charter you need a pre-existing group of men. You need to "fill the chairs" so-to-speak and judging by the dates on those gravestones...Lodge was being held there, by confederate Masons and Mormons, long before the charter from the Grand Lodge of California came in 1890. I'll stop there and let you laugh at me...... :). I am serious though. Nobody has looked at this to my knowledge and .... well, they've missed a major piece of the puzzle, of course IMO :) Who would have the connections, influence, funding and political power to "create legends" with books, magazines and newspapers........?
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FYI, Mormonism and Masonry are, in many cases, for all intents and purposes....inseparable, especially when we talk about town founders, store owners, politicians, judges and leaders of the community. Think about Joseph Smith (a Freemason himself) and his saying that, "Not all Mormons need be Masons, but if you want to be the best Mormon you can be, you should also be a Freemason."
Yes.

As you know, I'm not a Freemason. But I know when I'm shaking hands with one LOL. I have some life experience from "the other side of the coin".

I think if you keep digging along those lines, you may ultimately learn the truth about some of these old stories. Who knows?
 

Yes.

As you know, I'm not a Freemason. But I know when I'm shaking hands with one LOL. I have some life experience from "the other side of the coin".

I think if you keep digging along those lines, you may ultimately learn the truth about some of these old stories. Who knows?
Im hoping Im both a bit "outside the box" and "on to something" here.
Do you remember what Waltz named his mine in the Bradshaws?
It's very relevant..........
 

Yes.

As you know, I'm not a Freemason. But I know when I'm shaking hands with one LOL. I have some life experience from "the other side of the coin".

I think if you keep digging along those lines, you may ultimately learn the truth about some of these old stories. Who knows?
Speaking of Masonic handshakes.......
Screenshot_20241116_234456_Gaia GPS.jpg
 

Did Jacob only go to Adamsville for flour? Or, did he go get flour on Lodge nights? What kind of men would he be seeing and hanging with there? What fraternal organizations were the grown men of that town involved in and...how much did Jacob participate?
One thing that stands out in the story...and IMO it is just that, a STORY...is that Waltz knew his dead pard's shirt by its Masonic pin.

I'll stop there and let you laugh at me...... :). I am serious though. Nobody has looked at this to my knowledge and .... well, they've missed a major piece of the puzzle, of course IMO
Well, it's possible that a great number of people have looked into it ;)

I just don't see many talking about it online :laughing7:

Not sure I'm ever going to go there. Thinking about it. But for now, probably not.
 

One thing that stands out in the story...and IMO it is just that, a STORY...is that Waltz knew his dead pard's shirt by its Masonic pin.


Well, it's possible that a great number of people have looked into it ;)

I just don't see many talking about it online :laughing7:

Not sure I'm ever going to go there. Thinking about it. But for now, probably not.

One thing that stands out in the story...and IMO it is just that, a STORY...is that Waltz knew his dead pard's shirt by its Masonic pin.


Well, it's possible that a great number of people have looked into it ;)

I just don't see many talking about it online :laughing7:

Not sure I'm ever going to go there. Thinking about it. But for now, probably not.
Well, hopefully I can save you some money on a trip. You know I won't hide anything so, hopefully you'll get all you need from my video, when it eventually comes.
Just to be clear......when you say dead pard, you are reffering to Wiser, correct?
About the Masonic pin: That's actually believable to me......... Its more common to wear lapel pins on suit jackets (lapels), BUT men do wear them on shirt collars and shirts too. It may be a story, but its one of the more believable ones to me :)
 

Well, hopefully I can save you some money on a trip. You know I won't hide anything so, hopefully you'll get all you need from my video, when it eventually comes.
Just to be clear......when you say dead pard, you are reffering to Wiser, correct?
About the Masonic pin: That's actually believable to me......... Its more common to wear lapel pins on suit jackets (lapels), BUT men do wear them on shirt collars and shirts too. It may be a story, but its one of the more believable ones to me :)
I haven't been to Adamsville in a long time. Looking forward to your video.

I personally don't believe Waltz's pard's name was "Wiser" or "Weiser" etc. After looking into Thomas Weedin's history. I found that Weedin had a mining partner named Weiser.

Waltz did have a mining partner named Jacob Weiss, who died in Prescott before Waltz moved down to Phoenix. Weiss wasn't killed by Indians.

Jacob Weiss and his brother Andrew (Nicholas) had a homestead near what is now Mayer. I've been there, it's now part of a private ranch. I believe Waltz lived there at least for a time.

Andrew (Nicholas) Weiss, as far as I can tell, disappeared without a trace. Was he Waltz's pard from the stories? The "nephew" from the stories? Who knows.

Weedin is an interesting character. You might want to look at him. I think he's the reason a lot of these stories got circulation.

(Edited above to correct the name from "Andrew" to "Nicholas" Weiss.)

Whether or not anyone's shirt had a Masonic pin on it...could be true...or it could just be a "signpost".
 

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I haven't been to Adamsville in a long time. Looking forward to your video.

I personally don't believe Waltz's pard's name was "Wiser" or "Weiser" etc. After looking into Thomas Weedin's history. I found that Weedin had a mining partner named Weiser.

Waltz did have a mining partner named Jacob Weiss, who died in Prescott before Waltz moved down to Phoenix. Weiss wasn't killed by Indians.

Jacob Weiss and his brother Andrew had a homestead near what is now Mayer. I've been there, it's now part of a private ranch. I believe Waltz lived there at least for a time.

Andrew Weiss, as far as I can tell, disappeared without a trace. Was he Waltz's pard from the stories? The "nephew" from the stories? Who knows.

Weedin is an interesting character. You might want to look at him. I think he's the reason a lot of these stories got circulation.

Whether or not anyone's shirt had a Masonic pin on it...could be true...or it could just be a "signpost".
Interesting.
Weedin.........
And about those signposts, Ive been seeing them pop up more and more. Unrelated to this (or is it), the LUE map is HIGHLY Masonic and I just realized it the other day. The caption under the map (the first time it was introduced publically) in Treasure Hunter's Manual #7 was a glaring Masonic signpost......
They exist.
 

I think it's worthwhile to look at Masonic connections, but as far as I could tell, it's ancillary to what was going on with the LDS. That these men had connections and worked together in the finding and mining of precious metals is obvious.

Weedin ran against Hunt for the Democratic nomination for Governor. He lost, but Hunt went on to win the Governorship.

Jim Bark mentioned this briefly, but I can't remember where. Bark notes, maybe?

One can't begin to understand what was going on in early AZ without looking at the activities of people belonging to the Church. But equally important is what was going on politically, before, during and after the civil war. Heck, even the gunfight at the OK Corral can ultimately be laid at the feet of Northern (Republican) business interests that clashed with business interests of Texan/Southern (Democrat) operations. That's if you can call cattle rustling a business interest LOL. But that's what it boiled down to...opposing sides in the civil war still hating each other and fighting for control in AZ.
 

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