Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[Hal Croves]

mike...in my recent post i said that i dont think the fbi were competent to make that call back then as to the stones age..no way they even had the technology to tell whether they were even recent fakes...you have to realize that was the 1960's....they did not have the methods we have now to date carvings....all they could do is guess....and i seriously doubt they could guess better than either you or i back then...i have lived around the supers for many years and i know most of the dutch hunters and the stone map enthusiasts....i never seen any of them find anything using those maps and every one of them think the maps lead to a different area....matter of fact all the top dogs around here (tom k...bob c...ron f.... clay w. and a number of others) have all denounced the stones as fakes ..and if anyone would have any inside info it would be those guys.....i dont have any problem with people believing in the stone map...i have alot of good friends that believe in them and will till the day they die...but i dont think anyone could ever convince me they weren't faked..put it this way...it would take a heap of proof to sway me the other way

"...a heap of proof..."


PROOF: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
HEAP: an untidy collection of things piled up haphazard.

 

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[gollum]

Hey Buddy,

The FBI Laboratory in Washington DC is (and has always been) one the most advanced and state of the art labs in the United States. I contacted John Fox PhD at the FBI again with a few different questions and am waiting to hear back. What tests would be performed today that are different from those they would have performed in the late 1960s?

>The first thing to be looked for is a general look and feel of the Stone Maps.

>Examination of the stones for evidence of modern machining would also be done.

>Next, a microscopic examination of all the grooves and cracks looking first for any organic material that woulds allow them to date that material. Next, they would also be looking for any tiny pieces of metal. They could tell by the content of the metal whether it was modern or older.

>Further examination of the engravings would also be done to compare with other ENGRAVINGS/CARVINGS of different time periods. Ryan compares the carvings with handwriting samples of period documents. That is like comparing apples to tortoises.

ALL of those tests could have been performed in the late 1960s. Scanning Electron Microscopes were available at the time as well, and I will bet that the FBI Lab in DC was one of the first places to get one.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Hey Buddy,

The FBI Laboratory in Washington DC is (and has always been) one the most advanced and state of the art labs in the United States. I contacted John Fox PhD at the FBI again with a few different questions and am waiting to hear back. What tests would be performed today that are different from those they would have performed in the late 1960s?

>The first thing to be looked for is a general look and feel of the Stone Maps.

>Examination of the stones for evidence of modern machining would also be done.

>Next, a microscopic examination of all the grooves and cracks looking first for any organic material that woulds allow them to date that material. Next, they would also be looking for any tiny pieces of metal. They could tell by the content of the metal whether it was modern or older.

>Further examination of the engravings would also be done to compare with other ENGRAVINGS/CARVINGS of different time periods. Ryan compares the carvings with handwriting samples of period documents. That is like comparing apples to tortoises.

ALL of those tests could have been performed in the late 1960s. Scanning Electron Microscopes were available at the time as well, and I will bet that the FBI Lab in DC was one of the first places to get one.

Mike

an FOIA would probably prove once and for all what testing if any was done...also i heard years ago asu and uofa had done testing on the stone maps...it wouldn't be too hard to get the report on them if someone wanted to pursue it

 

[cactusjumper]

Hey Buddy,

The FBI Laboratory in Washington DC is (and has always been) one the most advanced and state of the art labs in the United States. I contacted John Fox PhD at the FBI again with a few different questions and am waiting to hear back. What tests would be performed today that are different from those they would have performed in the late 1960s?

>The first thing to be looked for is a general look and feel of the Stone Maps.

>Examination of the stones for evidence of modern machining would also be done.

>Next, a microscopic examination of all the grooves and cracks looking first for any organic material that woulds allow them to date that material. Next, they would also be looking for any tiny pieces of metal. They could tell by the content of the metal whether it was modern or older.

>Further examination of the engravings would also be done to compare with other ENGRAVINGS/CARVINGS of different time periods. Ryan compares the carvings with handwriting samples of period documents. That is like comparing apples to tortoises.

ALL of those tests could have been performed in the late 1960s. Scanning Electron Microscopes were available at the time as well, and I will bet that the FBI Lab in DC was one of the first places to get one.

Mike

Mike,

Can you come up with a good reason for the FBI to take on such an examination of the Stone Maps? Was there some kind of a crime committed that was attached to the stones in some way? If so, were charges filed somewhere?

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Mike,

Can you come up with a good reason for the FBI to take on such an examination of the Stone Maps? Was there some kind of a crime committed that was attached to the stones in some way? If so, were charges filed somewhere?

Take care,

Joe

yes joe..thats another problem i have with the fbi test's done on the stone maps...why would they care about the stones unless they were going to be used as evidence in court?..neither the moel case or crazy jake's case ever went to court...and back then the govt wasn't as bad at wasting taxpayer money as they are now...i just dont see any reason for them to do any serious testing on them....if they did take them i'd say they just had someone eyeball them

 

[coazon de oro]

Truth stands alone, surrounded by lies.

This is why it is easier to believe the heap of lies that surround it. We have the word of the man who found the PSM's against the lies that keep accumulating. It just takes one person to cry fake with no proof at all, and the majority will follow. There is no definite proof that the PSM's are fake, if there is, I'll take two scoops.

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

yes joe..thats another problem i have with the fbi test's done on the stone maps...why would they care about the stones unless they were going to be used as evidence in court?..neither the moel case or crazy jake's case ever went to court...and back then the govt wasn't as bad at wasting taxpayer money as they are now...i just dont see any reason for them to do any serious testing on them....if they did take them i'd say they just had someone eyeball them

Dave,

An even more obvious question is.......If Bob thought the FBI had tested the stones and told him they were not a hoax, why does he believe they are fakes.......to this day? In addition, why does his good friend Tom Kollenborn believe they are fakes? If the FBI told me they were the real thing, I would still be searching.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

An even more obvious question is.......If Bob thought the FBI had tested the stones and told him they were not a hoax, why does he believe they are fakes.......to this day? In addition, why does his good friend Tom Kollenborn believe they are fakes? If the FBI told me they were the real thing, I would still be searching.

Take care,

Joe

joe,
exactly....thats what i said in a previous post...none of the top dogs around believe the stones are real...thats good enough for me

 

[azdave35]

Truth stands alone, surrounded by lies.

This is why it is easier to believe the heap of lies that surround it. We have the word of the man who found the PSM's against the lies that keep accumulating. It just takes one person to cry fake with no proof at all, and the majority will follow. There is no definite proof that the PSM's are fake, if there is, I'll take two scoops.

Homar

have you ever thought that it might be the other way around?...maybe the man that claimed to have found the stones lied and everyone else told the truth?....that's the main problem with these stone maps...no one really knows for sure what happened

 

[coazon de oro]

have you ever thought that it might be the other way around?...maybe the man that claimed to have found the stones lied and everyone else told the truth?....that's the main problem with these stone maps...no one really knows for sure what happened

One lie could never hold up to many truths, yet one truth will hold up to many lies.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

One lie could never hold up to many truths, yet one truth will hold up to many lies.

Homar

the day someone can prove the stone maps lead to the LDM or a treasure i'll eat my words..but until then i'll stick with what i believe...and by prove i mean take a news crew to the mine or treasure site and actually show the gold

 

[UncleMatt]

I'm with Dave

 

[somehiker]

Who investigates possible violations of The American Antiquities Act of 1906 ?
Does anybody know if it would have been the FBI in the late 60's ?
If so, would the agency be able to call on experts in related fields for help ?

 

[azdave35]

I'm with Dave

there have been alot of people in the past that thought they had something located in the mountains...and some of them i believe actually did stumble onto something....the ones that really thought they had something contacted the newspapers and local t.v. stations...example ron feldman...ron eagle...glen magil and a long list of others (there again if someone wants to do the research it wouldn't be hard to get the names )...but they all were convinced they found something and weren't afraid to prove it...so if any of you have the maps figured out...i can get the number for the arizona republic for you

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Welcome back Gully

 

[sdcfia]

Who investigates possible violations of The American Antiquities Act of 1906 ?
Does anybody know if it would have been the FBI in the late 60's ?
If so, would the agency be able to call on experts in related fields for help ?

I believe the government department that controls the land upon which the artifact was recovered (NPS, USFS, BLM, et al) is the prosecuting authority, and the US District Court is the venue. The "experts" can only verify that the artifact is old enough to qualify for prosecution under the Act. The difficult part is proving where the artifact was recovered and who recovered it. In the past, this was a tough case to prove. I know a couple folks who've been busted on digging Indian pottery - it usually takes a witness who turns in the digger, but nowadays remote sensors are all over the place and guys can get caught red-handed. Check the District Court records in Phoenix - I'd be surprised if you find any cases during the Tumlinson days.

 

[somehiker]

there have been alot of people in the past that thought they had something located in the mountains...and some of them i believe actually did stumble onto something....the ones that really thought they had something contacted the newspapers and local t.v. stations...example ron feldman...ron eagle...glen magil and a long list of others (there again if someone wants to do the research it wouldn't be hard to get the names )...but they all were convinced they found something and weren't afraid to prove it...so if any of you have the maps figured out...i can get the number for the arizona republic for you

Pass it on to Joe, Dave. Since he's onboard today.
Sounds like an easy way to meet and greet a number of Gov't. suits, should the article include any pictures of the treasure you're asking to see as proof.

 

[somehiker]

I believe the government department that controls the land upon which the artifact was recovered (NPS, USFS, BLM, et al) is the prosecuting authority, and the US District Court is the venue. The "experts" can only verify that the artifact is old enough to qualify for prosecution under the Act. The difficult part is proving where the artifact was recovered and who recovered it. In the past, this was a tough case to prove. I know a couple folks who've been busted on digging Indian pottery - it usually takes a witness who turns in the digger, but nowadays remote sensors are all over the place and guys can get caught red-handed. Check the District Court records in Phoenix - I'd be surprised if you find any cases during the Tumlinson days.

To date, there have been no documents brought forward relating to ANY charges of fraud or court case where the stones have been introduced as evidence thereof.
All we have is "allegations" from he said-he saids with far less credibility and legal standing than any of the agencies you mentioned, including Robert Corbin and the officials he said he spoke to. I have no problem with Bob's belief that the stones are fake, or J. Scott Woods, or any of the other more qualified professionals who have voiced the same opinion. But neither their opinions, nor these arguments answer the question as to who? carved them in the first place.

 

[KXMember]

Anyone ever heard of Gades6 or anything similar

 

[Tnmountains]

Why did the Archeologist that examined it say that power tools had cut the slab and drills were used with start and stop marks on the letters? There was no patina or evidence of any age on the stones. I read an article the other day from the 50's(?) about the stones in a PDF where they show another stone with the same date found earlier and it was proven to be a hoax and they thought this is where they got their idea for these.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...rticles/Are the Peralta Stone Maps a Hoax.pdf


It is a lot of pages of maps and pictures so even on high speed internet it takes it a second or two to load.