Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[coazon de oro]

Kx
You obviously did not read the scientific report on the stones Ryan posted. I tend to believe scientific evidence over hearsay.... bud.

Howdy Tnmountains,

Scientists are also human, and capable of making mistakes. Their word is not the gospel, look at the drugs that they approve as being safe, only to be later taken off the shelves due to the many deaths.

It was just their opinion that the stones were fake, not a proven fact.

In treasure hunting, the PSM's are where the boys get separated.

Homar

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Howdy Tnmountains,

Scientists are also human, and capable of making mistakes. Their word is not the gospel, look at the drugs that they approve as being safe, only to be later taken off the shelves due to the many deaths.

It was just their opinion that the stones were fake, not a proven fact.

In treasure hunting, the PSM's are where the boys get separated.

Homar

coazon de oro,

It is just my opinion but I believe the scientific testing and report done on the Stone Maps that are presently in the SMHS Museum was doomed from the start. That is because I believe the Stone Maps they have are not the original Stone Maps but copies.
C.O. Mitchell had an antiquities professor and a geology professor examine the Stone Maps he got from Travis Tumlinson shortly after he took possession of them. Gollum (Mike) found the professors wife and spoke to her. She remembered the incident but did not have her husbands papers any longer. Gollum could fill in the whole story,I just remember the name of the professor was Dana. Mitchell even wrote about the examination in his book. (Not the Life Article, his Book.)

That is where the statement that the Stone Maps were at least 100 years old originated from. Not the "alleged FBI examination", which by the way never happened.

Matthew

 

[DiggerGal]

coazon de oro,

It is just my opinion but I believe the scientific testing and report done on the Stone Maps that are presently in the SMHS Museum was doomed from the start. That is because I believe the Stone Maps they have are not the original Stone Maps but copies.
C.O. Mitchell had an antiquities professor and a geology professor examine the Stone Maps he got from Travis Tumlinson shortly after he took possession of them. Gollum (Mike) found the professors wife and spoke to her. She remembered the incident but did not have her husbands papers any longer. Gollum could fill in the whole story,I just remember the name of the professor was Dana. Mitchell even wrote about the examination in his book. (Not the Life Article, his Book.)

That is where the statement that the Stone Maps were at least 100 years old originated from. Not the "alleged FBI examination", which by the way never happened.

Matthew

Matthew,

Are you referring to Prof. V. Dana from University of Redlands that allegedly studied under Dr. Charles Richter?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

Are you referring to Prof. V. Dana from University of Redlands that allegedly studied under Dr. Charles Richter?

Digger Gal,

I'm heading out right now for San Diego so I don't have time to look up the exact file but yes that must be him because I remember Redlands University. Gollum has done a lot of digging into this. Another Professor was involved also but I can't recall his name right now. Mitchell contacted these people and asked them to take a look at the Stone Maps and get their opinions. As I said in the previous post., Mitchell wrote about it and their conclusions in his book Superstition Treasures.
Gollum could really give some good information on this.

Matthew

 

[deducer]

Another Professor was involved also but I can't recall his name right now.

You are thinking of Martin L. Stout, a geologist from CSULA.

Mike did talk about this briefly, but was not able to extract much information as far as their opinions as both Stout and Dana (who allegedly dated the original Stones to the 1800's) had passed on before he got to them. He spoke to Dana's widow to try and get more information, but her memory of the event was not clear.

 

[captain1965]

Didn't Bob Corbin have the FBI labs test them. I heard they found the trail stones to be 100 years old or older and that the heart stone appeared to predate the trail stones.

 

[azdave35]

Didn't Bob Corbin have the FBI labs test them. I heard they found the trail stones to be 100 years old or older and that the heart stone appeared to predate the trail stones.

i doubt that ever took place..there are alot of crazy rumors floating around concerning those stone maps

 

[somehiker]

i doubt that ever took place..there are alot of crazy rumors floating around concerning those stone maps

From Gary Cundiff's website:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...LostDutchman/peralta/The Bob Corbin Story.pdf

 

[Simon1]

Bill, do you think it was actually possible for the miners to think up such an elaborate method ? Reverse image ? Here we are frying our brains in trying to figure this out, wouldn't they have been somewhat simplistic in nature ? Sometimes it seems that they would have had to make maps of their maps, or maps of their maps of their maps. It seems we view things we don't understand, from the perspective that it must be complicated, when in fact it is just the opposite ? If they made such complicated codes, they must have kept a book or diary so they themselves did not get confused ? You're doing a good job and is interesting.

 

[azdave35]

From Gary Cundiff's website:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...LostDutchman/peralta/The Bob Corbin Story.pdf

as far as i'm concerned the FBI was not competent to analyze any archeological artifacts (especially back in the 60's)... they didnt have an archeological department...that would be the same as taking them to the local police department and have them determine the age of the stones

 

[somehiker]

as far as i'm concerned the FBI was not competent to analyze any archeological artifacts (especially back in the 60's)... they didnt have an archeological department...that would be the same as taking them to the local police department and have them determine the age of the stones

I'm no expert on FBI analytical prowess, then or now. So I will have to take Bob's words at face value, since I consider him an honest man and a good source.
But as one of "those crazy rumors floating around", we can at least trace this one back to it's origin.....two individuals in this case....a deputy US Attorney and a FBI agent in conversation with Bob. The newspaper story also indicates a FBI investigation into ongoing fraudulent activities in the area related to LDM/lost mine "discoveries", including the names of some of the individuals involved. While the stone maps are not mentioned in the story, it's certainly possible IMO, that they were brought to the FBI's attention during their investigation.

 

[azdave35]

I'm no expert on FBI analytical prowess, then or now. So I will have to take Bob's words at face value, since I consider him an honest man and a good source.
But as one of "those crazy rumors floating around", we can at least trace this one back to it's origin.....two individuals in this case....a deputy US Attorney and a FBI agent in conversation with Bob. The newspaper story also indicates a FBI investigation into ongoing fraudulent activities in the area related to LDM/lost mine "discoveries", including the names of some of the individuals involved. While the stone maps are not mentioned in the story, it's certainly possible IMO, that they were brought to the FBI's attention during their investigation.

if i'm reading corbin's letter correctly he say's he believes the stone maps are fake

 

[somehiker]

if i'm reading corbin's letter correctly he say's he believes the stone maps are fake

Yes he does.
Five years later....in his 2010 E-Mail to Joe Ribaudo.

 

[deducer]

Bill, do you think it was actually possible for the miners to think up such an elaborate method ? Reverse image ? Here we are frying our brains in trying to figure this out, wouldn't they have been somewhat simplistic in nature ? Sometimes it seems that they would have had to make maps of their maps, or maps of their maps of their maps. It seems we view things we don't understand, from the perspective that it must be complicated, when in fact it is just the opposite ? If they made such complicated codes, they must have kept a book or diary so they themselves did not get confused ?

You raise a very good point, and one that KX amongst others seem to have missed, namely that using 20th century arithmetic and/or technology (google earth, for example) to try and solve puzzles that were created without those tools, is self-defeating.

And this probably accounts for so much of the confusion and frustration arising over the inability to make sense of the Stone Maps, for example.

 

[Las Vegas Bob]

Didn't Bob Corbin have the FBI labs test them. I heard they found the trail stones to be 100 years old or older and that the heart stone appeared to predate the trail stones.

The stones themselves could be tens of thousands to millions of years old that tells you nothing about when were actually craved, so the age of the stones is mute unless they could actually date the craving's.

 

[releventchair]

Spanish mines the king was aware of required a cartographer and mapping process including a copy sent to at least one of two places.
That contrasts with my previous opinion of someone involved in a mining enterprise only making maps would be a waste of labor.

Those making maps had some considerable skill in the matter long ago.



Notable Cartographers and Their Maps ~ GIS Lounge

 

[Azquester]

Castillian Bible Thumpers used gematria coding it's been around since the time of Christ so the only thing they needed was a bible and some knowledge of numerical substitution.

Since the Maps make no sense by what they say the meaning must be encoded in the alphanumeric there is no other obvious explanation for the senseless phrases contained in the writing on them.

They are a riddle you must solve.

Bill, do you think it was actually possible for the miners to think up such an elaborate method ? Reverse image ? Here we are frying our brains in trying to figure this out, wouldn't they have been somewhat simplistic in nature ? Sometimes it seems that they would have had to make maps of their maps, or maps of their maps of their maps. It seems we view things we don't understand, from the perspective that it must be complicated, when in fact it is just the opposite ? If they made such complicated codes, they must have kept a book or diary so they themselves did not get confused ? You're doing a good job and is interesting.

 

[captain1965]

The stones themselves could be tens of thousands to millions of years old that tells you nothing about when were actually craved, so the age of the stones is mute unless they could actually date the craving's.

Sorry .. I ment carvings. Carvings can also be dated. I'm not sure of the level of technology during the time the FBI tested the stones. But even science gets it wrong at times. The Marcos de Niza carvings on South Mountain were tested on the show the History Detectives. After carbon dating the carvings at ASU they concluded that the carvings dated to at least the early 19th century. ASU was looking for an earlier date of 1539 that required a different test called the little ice age test. The carvings failed this test and the show concluded that the De Niza carvings date to the early 1800's not 1539.
I did my own research because it didn't make any sense that a person or persons would travel so far north into dangerous Indian territory only to carve historically correct information.
I found a story in I believe 1984 or 1985, about a few Tempe High school students painting Tempe High rules over the De Niza carvings. Tempe and Marcos de Niza High School I guess where football rivals at the time.
The parks and restoration department then removed the paint from the carvings.
I contacted one of the individuals who conducted the test at ASU for the show and informed of the restoration. I then ask if the restoration would affect the Little Ice Age test. I was told that any form of paint removal would contaminate the test and they would have to find the test inconclusive.

 

[gollum]

AZDAVE35,

Read Bob's Letter carefully. The FBI weren't asked to date the Stone Maps. They were simply asked to see if they could determine whether they were recent fakes. The FBI determined they were not recent fakes, and went further on to say they thought they were at least 100 years old (in the late 1960s)..

Very simple.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

AZDAVE35,

Read Bob's Letter carefully. The FBI weren't asked to date the Stone Maps. They were simply asked to see if they could determine whether they were recent fakes. The FBI determined they were not recent fakes, and went further on to say they thought they were at least 100 years old (in the late 1960s)..

Very simple.

Mike

mike...in my recent post i said that i dont think the fbi were competent to make that call back then as to the stones age..no way they even had the technology to tell whether they were even recent fakes...you have to realize that was the 1960's....they did not have the methods we have now to date carvings....all they could do is guess....and i seriously doubt they could guess better than either you or i back then...i have lived around the supers for many years and i know most of the dutch hunters and the stone map enthusiasts....i never seen any of them find anything using those maps and every one of them think the maps lead to a different area....matter of fact all the top dogs around here (tom k...bob c...ron f.... clay w. and a number of others) have all denounced the stones as fakes ..and if anyone would have any inside info it would be those guys.....i dont have any problem with people believing in the stone map...i have alot of good friends that believe in them and will till the day they die...but i dont think anyone could ever convince me they weren't faked..put it this way...it would take a heap of proof to sway me the other way