The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Springfield]

Deducer,

There are many reasons to have carved the maps in stone:

1. Longetivity: Maps carved in stone would last far longer than maps drawn on vellum or paper

2. Resistance to wear: Maps carved in stone would be much more resistant to the elements than maps on vellum or paper

3. Resistance to animals: Rats and mice can't chew stone

4. If you were going to hide them from authorities by placing them in the floor of a mission (say over the tomb of some "DON")

Mike

Well ... yeah ... but why put all your eggs in one basket?
1) We know that maps drawn on vellum, parchment, leather, thin metal sheets, etc., have been serviceable for at least many hundreds of years. Are you implying that the Peraltas, or Jesuits, or Tumlinsons, or whomever, were concerned about an even longer time frame and needed stone?
2) Wear? How often are these maps to be used?
3) Traditional maps can be stored in protective sealed tubes, boxes, jars, etc., for permanent storage. They can also be easily reproduced for increased security.
4) Traditional maps can be hidden in a thousand and one places - no need for a stone floor.

 

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[gollum]

Springy,

I am saying that the Jesuits were/are very smart people, but even they did not know how long their suppression would last. Maybe ten years, and maybe a thousand. If the maps are carved in stone, then it wouldn't matter.

You have to keep in mind who I think made the Stone Maps! Vellum and paper may survive in a library, but when the Jesuits were arrested in 1767, they were not allowed to take anything with them but the clothes on their backs, their breviaries, and a copy of Sir Tomas a Kempis' "An imitation of Christ". Any maps made of anything would likely have been found. If you draw a map on vellum or parchment, then hide it in a piece of furniture, then you have to worry about fires, rodents, floods, weather, and someone accidentally finding it in the furniture.

If you carve your maps on flat stones, and use those stones as part of a tomb in the floor of a mission, who would disturb those stones? NO Spaniard would desecrate a tomb. I think it is very possible the CROSS and DON Stones covered a tomb at Arizpe.

Mike

 

[Not Peralta]

Gollum, springfield, in your thinking about the stone tablets,are you sure you can explain to the normal treasure hunters and researchers how to cross over the gate you are entering into, and why does
it have to be a known tomb or mission, why not unknown, after all, aren't the stone tablets unknow in there origin. np

 

[deducer]

Springfield does make some good points that are in line with my thinking.

Paper and Vellum, with care, can last a long time, and they were plentiful.

So again, the question of why stones were chosen gives one some hints about who the authors were, and what their intents were. Like Mike said, paper survives best in libraries, or more importantly, missions, but those are the first places that would have been searched.

Stones, on the other hand, can be stored anywhere, even out in the field, and that in itself, is another clue. This was most probably the intent of the authors- to keep them out in the mountains, at a trailhead, for example. Discovery would have been a lot less accidental.

Also their indestructibility strongly hints that this was a long-term endeavor, possibly meant to outlive the authors themselves or at least been meant for people that the authors would never meet. This would hardly be the action of miners who would have wanted to cash in while they were still alive, and so a rudimentary map and/or a simple list of landmarks on paper would have been more than sufficient for them, to aid them in remembering the way back.

No miner would have had to remind himself that 'this path is dangerous.' That would have been a very simple thing to remember.

 

[gollum]

Gollum, springfield, in your thinking about the stone tablets,are you sure you can explain to the normal treasure hunters and researchers how to cross over the gate you are entering into, and why does
it have to be a known tomb or mission, why not unknown, after all, aren't the stone tablets unknow in there origin. np

NP,

I have gone over this several times in a few different Stone Map Threads, but it has been a while. The Stone Maps' origins have never been 100% verified. I have researched their known history in depth, and personally believe they were not made as a hoax or scam.

I think they were made by the Jesuits in the three years that passed from the time they were suppressed by France (1764) and the time they were suppressed by Spain (1767). After the Portuguese and later French Suppression of the Order, they knew it was only a matter of time before their activities in the Spanish Lands would land them in the same boat there. In those three years, the vast majority of all the wealth that the Jesuit Missionary Fathers described in all their journadas almost completely disappeared. The Spanish Soldiers found about none of it on 25/26 June 1767, when they "Surprised", rounded up, and arrested all the Jesuits in the Spanish New World.

In the three years between the French and Spanish Suppression of the Order, it stands to reason that they went to great pains to hide all their wealth, to keep it out of the hands of the Spaniards. In the entire year before their Spanish Suppression, they were under close watch by an emissary of King Charles III of Spain. Just as the Spanish New World was broken down into states, the Jesuit New World was broken down into Rectorates that did not necessarily conform with the Spanish States. I believe that each Rectorate was responsible for hiding its own wealth (which is why we have so many stories of hidden Jesuit Wealth in so many places). I believe that one of those Rectorates hid their wealth in the area of the Superstition Mountains, then carved maps to the spot, and hid the maps somewhere only a Jesuit would think to look (maybe a floor of a mission/church, or maybe in the wilderness near a beautiful landmark that would look the same whether the Order was restored in twenty years or two thousand years.

Originally thought that the horse/priest stone was supposed to be found first. This would guide the finder (if they knew what to look for) to the trail stones. The Heart Stone would be the final key (also possible the Latin Heart and Stone Crosses were part of the greater plan).

I think it likely those stones laid on the floor of the Arizpe Mission until the early 1800s when they refloored the place and someone found the maps. Somehow from there they made it to John "Pegleg" Tumlinson (Travis' Father/Grandfather), and then to Travis. While there are still a lot of empty spots, I don't think I am too awfully far from what happened................ and I still think that nobody is going to solve them based on trying to decipher them. I think that someone will find one of the treasure sites, then work them out backwards from there.

Just like I thinks its more likely the Lost Dutchman will be found accidentally than by anyone following the known clues.

Mike

 

[sgtfda]

Some map set. Found over 60 years ago and no one can agree on the area they represent or what the target is. Something is missing here guys. They are either very good or very bad maps. There is something missing that would guide you to the correct trail. Or is there. The horse does just that. Here is a interesting question. When did Elephant Butte get its name. That alone would help date the stones.

 

[Not Peralta]

Gollum, I agree with your assessment of the stone tablets up to the point of arizpe mission, I also believe there are more to be found. one of the problems with this mystery is certain people are holding on to information that they don't even know what they have and how important it is, good example ,women of the noss family, babe and letha, doc left a map in his possessions that babe kept and never paid any attention to and passed it on to letha, she kept it for a long time before realizing what she had, go figure, it doesn't make since but that's the way things go, I think pegleg would never had this place in history if it wasn't for garman.and I think garman did not want to promote the idea that he had the maps in his possession ,for the time period around pegleg and garman look at their associates at the time and what was really going on and what was to be gained. np

 

[Not Peralta]

one of the problems people need to address is there are many maps to many supposed lost treasures, but a lot of these maps lead to the same treasure, when some group or several people hide a treasure
then theres more than one person that knows its location, that becomes a real problem, at some time in history your going to have different types of maps showing someone were this treasure is hidden
and after a time these maps are going to be copied over and over, if there was several locations of treasure buried by the same group theres going to be similarities in the maps, but because researches
get a recent map they dismiss some of these maps as fakes when in reality they are very informative in what they have to offer,
when your in one group of mnts or an area for any length of time and you start seeing things or markers that have you puzzled ,investigate these things farther and try to narrow down what there trying to show you,in the supes there were more markers that indicated many different things then after a time they started disappearing, then there were more markers that would appear in places were you knew there was none before,that was a very good sign that another treasure hunting scam was about to take place, after years of this its no wonder people are so confused , that's why its important to know
people that have been around the area for a long time, that goes for any were your hunting, thanks for letting me talk np

 

[somehiker]

I realize it will be speculation, but what would Bair's motive(s) be, to fabricate his story? Thank you in advance.
Roy

More important to me Roy, than Bair's motive, which may have been simply a continuance of his loyalty to Travis and Travis' wish for confidentiality, is the fact that he was the only one of record who has even suggested that Travis changed the original stones in any way. The names and addresses of Bair and Bob Shultz were given to Mel Brower by the duty officer at the Hood River PD and both men stated that they and Travis had planned a trip to Arizona which was canceled due to Travis' sudden passing. Bob Shultz was familiar with all four stones, as were both Ken and Pat Hainer ( who supplied a drawing of the back of the heart stone to Bernice McGee) and Robert Tumlinson, yet none of these mentioned any alteration to the stones made by Travis. Therefore it is my opinion that Bair, having been invited to join Travis in his search, would have been familiar with not just the four stones, but also Travis' current theories and search plan.

Regards:Wayne


Mike:

Something else to keep in mind....
During the period covered by the Peck group's investigation, they were in contact with the Feltners.
Nothing was said re: Travis' having fabricated any of the stones, nor were they able to obtain Travis' manuscript.

 

[deducer]

I think they were made by the Jesuits in the three years that passed from the time they were suppressed by France (1764) and the time they were suppressed by Spain (1767). After the Portuguese and later French Suppression of the Order, they knew it was only a matter of time before their activities in the Spanish Lands would land them in the same boat there. In those three years, the vast majority of all the wealth that the Jesuit Missionary Fathers described in all their journadas almost completely disappeared. The Spanish Soldiers found about none of it on 25/26 June 1767, when they "Surprised", rounded up, and arrested all the Jesuits in the Spanish New World.

There is good testimony to support the theory that the expulsion of the Jesuits from France played a strong role in shaping their final few years in the New World. This is a very interesting passage from Sacrifice and Survival: Identity, Mission, and Jesuit Higher Education in the American South by Eric Platt:



Of significance is the fact that all "ornaments" and "sacred vessels" (today, we would think of those as treasure) were seized without fair trial. This would most certainly have been foremost on the minds of the Jesuits in the Pimeria Alta, and may have inspired a ramping up of their concealment operations (if they did not already have that in progress).

And although the final arrêt of November 1764 dissolved the Jesuits throughout the French empire, they were in fact, expelled from the Louisiana territory in 1763, and it is not hard to imagine news of this traveling south relatively quickly.

 

[markmar]

Some map set. Found over 60 years ago and no one can agree on the area they represent or what the target is. Something is missing here guys. They are either very good or very bad maps. There is something missing that would guide you to the correct trail. Or is there. The horse does just that. Here is a interesting question. When did Elephant Butte get its name. That alone would help date the stones.

I know , is very hard to admit how a stranger or somebody else have found the area of the stone trail and the target . The reality is contrary to your beliefs . The future will show .
And ,is better to speak for yourself .

 

[sgtfda]

Ok how do you explain this? How about you other stoners. If this does not fit your trail or your treasure theory how do you explain it?

 

[gollum]

Some map set. Found over 60 years ago and no one can agree on the area they represent or what the target is. Something is missing here guys. They are either very good or very bad maps. There is something missing that would guide you to the correct trail. Or is there. The horse does just that. Here is a interesting question. When did Elephant Butte get its name. That alone would help date the stones.

Frank,

You are correct. More information is necessary. TO ME here are the possibilities:

1. Another missing stone piece that has yet to be found (or is currently privately held) will reveal what is not currently known (the starting point).

2. A natural (or man modified) monument near the mountains that is recognizable only to a Jesuit that shows the starting point.

3. Something on the known Stone Maps that has never been correctly deciphered that shows the correct starting point.

I also think that Cursum Perficio is a map, but you have to stand at the precisely correct location for it to make sense.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Ok how do you explain this? How about you other stoners. If this does not fit your trail or your treasure theory how do you explain it?


View attachment 1030762

Frank,

Look long enough and you can place that horse in many locations.

Using Aylor's Arch, known by old timers as Eye of the Horse, or Ojo de Caballo, as the true eye of the horse on the Stone Maps, you will find his ears on Bull Pass and his rump will be the two hills on the north end of Black Top Mesa.

Once you start working that, the rest will fall into place.....right or wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

But will you get a complete outline as in the above example?

 

[Garry]

We also know that the family lied to Garry/Larry. They said that Travis had never been to the Supers looking to solve the Stone Maps. Robert Garman was very familiar with both Travis T and Robert T, and he said that both of them had been in the Supers many times trying to solve the Stone Maps.

I said from the beginning that I think the family has just gotten tired of treasure hunters searching out the family and asking a bunch of questions, poking and prodding everyone for info. The easiest way to make all that end is to say that they saw Travis carve the stone maps and it was all a hoax. If people believe that, then they lose interest and quit pestering the family.

Mike

Mike,

I think you must have Larry Webb and I mixed up with someone else. The family NEVER said that Travis didn't venture into the Superstitions. In fact I thought that was one thing that everyone agreed on and there are not that many things on which people do agree!!!

In fact, in Travis' manuscript he chronicles several trips. Now I'm not saying Travis wasn't capable of spinning a story or two but his descriptions and timeline in the manuscript sound feasible to me.

I don't think the manuscript is any closer to becoming public than it was several years ago. i don't think it would change anyone's mind as we are all wont to believe what our heart tells us.

One story that is NOT in the manuscript is the Apache Junction Filling Station story, the roots embedded in the stone lettering that had to be cleaned and Charlie Miller's presence. There is a filling station story but it does not involve Apache Junction or Charlie Miller.

Everyone knows that I have no doubt Travis carved the stones but the one thing that i do bounce around on is how much Uncle Robert Tumlinson knew. At least in the manuscript, Robert wasn't present either time during the alleged unearthing of the stones. But later on, he doesn't seem to be very fired up about using them to find any treasure. i "suspect" he did know but then again, why would Travis tell him?

BTW, while it is exciting for the stoners to come up with solutions, it is equally exciting for those of us interested in the sourced history.

Garry

 

[cactusjumper]

But will you get a complete outline as in the above example?

Frank,

Yes, only more so. Do you have the back and rump of the horse?

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Easy to dismiss but in reality a important clue. The quad horse outlines the area the Tumilsons searched. There is a reason why they searched this area.

 

[deducer]

Frank,

Look long enough and you can place that horse in many locations.

Using Aylor's Arch, known by old timers as Eye of the Horse, or Ojo de Caballo, as the true eye of the horse on the Stone Maps, you will find his ears on Bull Pass and his rump will be the two hills on the north end of Black Top Mesa.

Once you start working that, the rest will fall into place.....right or wrong.

Take care,

Joe

What then, does the tail represent?

That is such a prominent feature on the Stone Map that it cannot be ignored.

 

[deducer]

Mike,

I think you must have Larry Webb and I mixed up with someone else. The family NEVER said that Travis didn't venture into the Superstitions. In fact I thought that was one thing that everyone agreed on and there are not that many things on which people do agree!!!

In fact, in Travis' manuscript he chronicles several trips. Now I'm not saying Travis wasn't capable of spinning a story or two but his descriptions and timeline in the manuscript sound feasible to me.

I don't think the manuscript is any closer to becoming public than it was several years ago. i don't think it would change anyone's mind as we are all wont to believe what our heart tells us.

One story that is NOT in the manuscript is the Apache Junction Filling Station story, the roots embedded in the stone lettering that had to be cleaned and Charlie Miller's presence. There is a filling station story but it does not involve Apache Junction or Charlie Miller.

Everyone knows that I have no doubt Travis carved the stones but the one thing that i do bounce around on is how much Uncle Robert Tumlinson knew. At least in the manuscript, Robert wasn't present either time during the alleged unearthing of the stones. But later on, he doesn't seem to be very fired up about using them to find any treasure. i "suspect" he did know but then again, why would Travis tell him?

BTW, while it is exciting for the stoners to come up with solutions, it is equally exciting for those of us interested in the sourced history.

Garry

Garry,

Why do you think the manuscript has never been published? Did the family give any reason for that?