The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[deducer]

Furthermore, the additional scratched directions, characteristic of both the priest and horse side of that stone, and also on the heart, is notably absent on the trail maps in the museum that are purported to be the originals.

That is, unless you look closely at the bumper stones. You'll see that scratched directions do exist on the real trail stones (just as they do on the H/P stone) and furthermore exist in the right places. I am attaching an illustration showing just two of those "scratched landmarks" the cross and the X at the beginning of a particular profile:

 

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[gollum]

Wayne

I believe the words " DEMUS " in that book , are a Jesuit code for the mines . for me the books belonged to a Spanish Catholic priest ( with Jesuit roots or Jesuit relatives ) who had accompanied the Peraltas to the big mining camp . Maybe he helped with the Latin words when was made the Latin heart . We know how in that era , all the Spanish expeditions and the Spanish big camps have a priest . The books , like all the stone maps , were dispersed over the region , after the Indian ambush .
The stone tablets were made by Spanish . The evidence is in the broken heart and in the word " COAZON " which means the same thing . The broken heart is a Spanish symbol for a man made deadly trap . Jesuits have not man made deadly traps but only natural .

Other are the questions :

Why the King of Spain gave to Peraltas this suspicious region ?
Were the Peraltas in a Spanish expedition to recover the Jesuit treasure ?
Why needed Peraltas about 400 men in the last attemt to recover " their " gold ?

Marius,

A broken heart does not necessarily mean a "Death Trap". Typically, it means "Follow the directions carefully, or your heart will break", and sometimes it just means that the broken heart is a false lead and to ignore it. A perfect example of that was when friend of mine was working a site. There was a heart shaped rock about 12 feet in diameter. It had a cut line running through it. He carefully dug that stone up, flipped it over and down the hill. Underneath was another 12 foot heart shaped stone. That one was dug up, flipped over and pushed down the hill. Under that was a third 12 foot heart shaped stone. That one was dug up, flipped over and rolled down the hill. Under that was............ nothing. So sometimes, to "break your heart" only means that you will waste a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

Also, the Peralta Land Grant was a Church Grant, not a grant by the King of Spain.

Mike

 

[sgtfda]

I paid my museum fee a few years ago to view the maps. Obvious copies. Just go to the Blue Bird and see copies in the window for free.
Don't assume because a old books were found they were placed there many years ago. People do strange things. 1+1 is not always 2. Assuming things is one reason crimes are not solved and treasure not found. Don't assume anything. Look into other possibilities.

 

[Somero]

I know when looking at the old photo one has to be careful since it has creases, scratches. different angle, and possibly residual dirt on the Stones. The ones on display in the museum, in my opinion, are authentic, mainly because so many minute details match the photo. I think it highly unlikely that someone would spend the time to shape and carve the exact same chips and scratches onto stones made to the same dimensions as the originals, right down to the beveling along the edges. I also now believe that Tumlinson "erased" some symbols and re-carved and freshened others on the Don Stone. Although it would be nice to put a straight edge across the face of the Stone to verify any dips, which would help explain why that one chip is almost non existent on the current stone and if somebody made exact copies that chip would still be present. In my opinion.

This is what I see, of course it is just speculation on how it looks but these marks seem visible and are definite shapes. Like the areas Wayne pointed out you can see definite changes along with the "start" arrow at the bottom. Once again the question has to be asked, if Tumlinson faked 'em why would he change 'em? Seems he had information on where to dig to find them and if that information came from Peg-leg we can eliminate a modern hoax.




I also think the Peralta connection could be removed as well, but that is pure speculation at this point so it would be pointless to throw that idea in the mix.

 

[markmar]

Marius,

A broken heart does not necessarily mean a "Death Trap". Typically, it means "Follow the directions carefully, or your heart will break", and sometimes it just means that the broken heart is a false lead and to ignore it. A perfect example of that was when friend of mine was working a site. There was a heart shaped rock about 12 feet in diameter. It had a cut line running through it. He carefully dug that stone up, flipped it over and down the hill. Underneath was another 12 foot heart shaped stone. That one was dug up, flipped over and pushed down the hill. Under that was a third 12 foot heart shaped stone. That one was dug up, flipped over and rolled down the hill. Under that was............ nothing. So sometimes, to "break your heart" only means that you will waste a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.

Mike

Mike

I agree . But these hearts are lures . Are on the trail and are big to distract the attention from the real site . The real hearts are not upon the tunnels/mines , but beside , are small and carved on the mountainside . This make it sure how will not move away . Between the heart and the tunnel/mine are supplemental signs/symbols to inform you where and what kind of trap they made .
With the stone heart is different . Is part of a map and warns about all the heart's region . The safest way to reach the mine is the stone trail ( in the small trail ). Follow the signs/lugares to be safe . The Priest says the same in his map .

 

[Cubfan64]

Just tossing this idea out for kicks...

What if Travis Tumlinson made a copy of the stones and kept the originals "hidden away" for his own use?

He obviously had not only some experience but also an interest in carving images on rocks, plus in doing so he could make whatever alterations he desired and not care because he would always have the originals for his own use.

I know the car bumper photo has scratches, bends and shadows, but it's always appeared to me that those stones are NOT the same ones on display in the museum.

 

[deducer]

Just tossing this idea out for kicks...

What if Travis Tumlinson made a copy of the stones and kept the originals "hidden away" for his own use?

He obviously had not only some experience but also an interest in carving images on rocks, plus in doing so he could make whatever alterations he desired and not care because he would always have the originals for his own use.

I know the car bumper photo has scratches, bends and shadows, but it's always appeared to me that those stones are NOT the same ones on display in the museum.

I believe this to be the most likely scenario, that Tumlinson secreted away the originals and used duplicates to work with or haul (hawk?) around.

Although the bumper stones photo has a lot of wear and tear, it is easy to tell that, like the H/P stone, the color of the bumper stones are uneven, and dark in some places.

I do not think it an accident that the latter trail stones that exist at the museum just happened to be carved on sandstone, the same type of stones (and same size) as the chimney stones that Tumlinson did some of his earliest carvings on (gun/head/car/bike).

 

[Somero]

Paul, my thought is either some type of rubbing, drawing or photos. To make an exact copy of the Stones by carving new ones would take a lot of time and effort in which case why go through the effort when he could make up whatever he wanted and nobody would know. Changing them would make sense, after all we have no other images to compare them with unless there are some in an attic somewhere. So it all comes back to why change something he made?

 

[Somero]

I think the discoloration could be more evidence of tampering. I think the Heart Stone still retains it discoloration that matches pretty well with the old photo. Also on the back of the trail stones they still retain color variations while the front seems to have been resurfaced or cleaned due to tampering.



Couple examples of that type of stone in its natural habitat.

View attachment 1032029View attachment 1032030

 

[sgtfda]

They are copies Eric. Everybody and their uncle have a set. Along with every tourist trap on the trail. That's a fact. Just look at the photo on the car bumper. The copies look nothing like those in the photo. Too pure and clean. The suckers line up to pay to see them.

 

[Somero]

I've only seen pictures of the copies and to me they look like plaster and paint. As far as I can tell the ones in the museum are stone and if they are copies somebody did one heck of a job duplicating them right down to the paint. I'm not hoping to persuade anybody, just making observations between photos and looking for an explanation as to the differences but also taking into account the similarities, which in my opinion, match the museum stones pretty well. Also taking into account possible alterations to the stones and why they were done without digging to much into the back story which tends to get cloudy.

In my opinion it would make no sense for Tumlinson to change something he made when he clearly could have fabricated something entirely different. I think he altered the face of the stones and that is why there are discrepancies in the marks and in doing so removed any color variations. Interestingly the stones in the museum have no color variations on the face but still there are variations on the backs and heart piece along with the H/P Stone. I would think if somebody was making copies they would color the trail maps face like all the other pieces much the same as the copies that are out there.

 

[sgtfda]

Go look you will see Eric. Exact copies were made and then copies of the copies. I know a fellow who has very early copies of everything. Everything! One day when I get time I'm going to look them over. I guess I'm not into them as much as most. Then you have the differences in the paper map. I'm leaning toward the map being made first and the stones later. Just a gut feeling. Some things added to the stones and some left off. It's my opinion the stones were made in the early 1900's. the heart area gives it away. That and other things I can't talk about. Though I've heard something of some importance was found in the correct trail area. From what I've seen none of the solutions are in that exact area. Course no one wants to hear or accept that. That's ok. The puzzle lives on and who has more fun than us!

 

[somehiker]

Wayne

I believe the words " DEMUS " in that book , are a Jesuit code for the mines . for me the books belonged to a Spanish Catholic priest ( with Jesuit roots or Jesuit relatives ) who had accompanied the Peraltas to the big mining camp . Maybe he helped with the Latin words when was made the Latin heart . We know how in that era , all the Spanish expeditions and the Spanish big camps have a priest . The books , like all the stone maps , were dispersed over the region , after the Indian ambush .
The stone tablets were made by Spanish . The evidence is in the broken heart and in the word " COAZON " which means the same thing . The broken heart is a Spanish symbol for a man made deadly trap . Jesuits have not man made deadly traps but only natural .

Other are the questions :

Why the King of Spain gave to Peraltas this suspicious region ?
Were the Peraltas in a Spanish expedition to recover the Jesuit treasure ?
Why needed Peraltas about 400 men in the last attemt to recover " their " gold ?

Although the word "DOMUS" [house, building; home, household] can be found in three places on the Latin Heart, I am reasonably certain neither DOMUS or "DEMUS" is mentioned within the Cursum Perficio document. While it would be logical that a priest would have owned the books and if asked who's they were, might very well have replied.... "they are mine". He may have done so in Latin or Spanish since this document has both,as well as 4 symbols found amongst those on the Stone Maps and Crosses.
Many thoughts and theories have been exchanged over the years as to the reasons for the misspellings of the Spanish words on the Horse/Priest Stone. Having taken note [NOTO] of what seems to be errors in proper Spanish some have siezed upon this as proof of illegitimacy, ie: that the carver was niether fluent in Spanish nor was Spanish his native language.
While it was certainly possible for a cleric in the Spanish territories to have another language as his mother tongue, as so many did back then, I am inclined to believe the map maker was very familiar with both the spoken and written word as he used them on paper and stone.I would think he expected the intended recipients to be equally proficient and would notice the errors and understand the implications of each.
"COAZON" is but one example.
But I don't think it has anything to do with a broken heart....

In answer to your questions:

As Mike has already answered, there never was a grant from the King to the Peraltas, other than that forged by James Addison Reavis as part of his fraudulent claim to a huge area of Arizona and New Mexico. Reavis' scheme and the publicity surrounding it may also be the basis for the "Church Grant" story as well, IMO. If authentic documentation exists, of such a church grant to the Peraltas which includes the Superstitions area, I have yet to see it.

No, I do not believe the Peraltas were doing anything other than prospecting and mining in the region.The legend, based on Anglo,Mexican and Indian sources involves a group of mines,"Las Minas de las Sombreras" and mule or burro loads of gold ore, rather than any "Jesuit" treasure.

Estimates of the number of people involved in the Massacre story vary from 48 (John Henry Pearce) to 100 (Pete Peralta) to as many as 400 (other sources). So who knows how many there really were ?
"Their" gold would have been whatever they could take from "their" mines before the Americans arrived.

Regards:SH.

 

[Somero]

Sarge having fun is what it's all about.

Personally, I prefer speculation over assumptions, leaves possibilities open ended.

 

[markmar]

To Mike and Wayne

In all my life I have heard about people to make grants to the Church . Is the first time when I heard how the Church make a grant of many hundred square miles land to a family . For what ? To help them to survive ?
Usually the Church make land grants for a social interest ( schools, hospitals , etc. ) .
Don't forget how in that era the Church was the Ambassador of the King .

And why to had burro loads of gold ore when they have arrastas amd smelter ?

Why the " Church " had chosen the miners Peralta ?

We must to look behind the appearance .

 

[johnmark29020]

To Mike and Wayne

In all my life I have heard about people to make grants to the Church . Is the first time when I heard how the Church make a grant of many hundred square miles land to a family . For what ? To help them to survive ?
Usually the Church make land grants for a social interest ( schools, hospitals , etc. ) .
Don't forget how in that era the Church was the Ambassador of the King .

And why to had burro loads of gold ore when they have arrastas amd smelter ?

Why the " Church " had chosen the miners Peralta ?

We must to look behind the appearance .

These maps are not as confusing as they appear. When you are in the right area. Everything is where its supposed to be. Take the el sombrero. That mountain isnt round like the maps lead you to think. Its a long mountain ,and it only like a sombrero from one end. Also many of the trails on the heart map can be seen on the ground when standing on the top. I think that where the artist stood when making the map.
Its all about being in the right spot.
When you are in the correct area. You quickly notice things the old timers were trying to find. I think many of the old timers had great info,but were mislead by the weavers needle clue. There is a rock out there that many have seen. It had two point with a hole underneath. The two points look like weavers needle.
There are mine all around that rock going for at least a couple of miles.
Plus when you are standing a the head of the canon. You can look south to see pickett post very clearly. To the north you can see a hugh lake. Its either Roosevelt or apachie. Climb to the top and you can clearly see 60. If there were government trail around there. A person could see them easily without being seen. My point is this the location has either been misinterpreted by accident or someone mislead everyone else to keep them out of the correct area.
I dont think the men who built the museum would display the original stone maps. Look at all the crazy stuff that has gone on in the area consering the ldm. Those maps are a rare find. I cant see the museum taking a chance on them being stolen. That may explain some of the differences that many have notice. Display copies. Keep the originals lock up. Thats if they have the originals. I think travis made copies for the same reason. He could make copies with minor alteration. If they were stolen while he was not looking. Then he would still have the originals,and the copies would send the theif in the wrong direction.
The early church didnt count on tith to pay the bills. They owned land for farming,mines,and rental. They even loaned money to business adventures at a modest return. The church may have been working the area using the peraltas as hired hands,or some type of partnership.

 

[deducer]

To Mike and Wayne

In all my life I have heard about people to make grants to the Church . Is the first time when I heard how the Church make a grant of many hundred square miles land to a family . For what ? To help them to survive ?
Usually the Church make land grants for a social interest ( schools, hospitals , etc. ) .
Don't forget how in that era the Church was the Ambassador of the King .

And why to had burro loads of gold ore when they have arrastas amd smelter ?

Why the " Church " had chosen the miners Peralta ?

We must to look behind the appearance .

I think you should perhaps do more research on this before making further remarks.

Reavis suing the US Goverment was the worst mistake he ever made. It forced them to really pay attention and do a very thorough and systematic investigation of the "Peralta land grant."

First, when grants are made, there are always two copies, one for each party between which the grant is made.

When Matthew Reynolds, special attorney in charge, did his investigation (going as far as Mexico City), it is very noteworthy that he could find no corresponding documents as far as the "Peralta land grant." Sevaro Mallet-Provost, who was appointed to assist, was sent to Spain to investigate the archives there and found nothing there, either.

Surely for such a large land grant, the "church" or "Mexican goverment" would have kept a copy, or some kind of record. But nothing of the kind was found, (paving the way for the US Government to prosecute Reavis) so it is pretty much given that the whole thing was nothing more than a con.

 

[johnmark29020]

I think you should perhaps do more research on this before making further remarks.

Reavis suing the US Goverment was the worst mistake he ever made. It forced them to really pay attention and do a very thorough and systematic investigation of the "Peralta land grant."

First, when grants are made, there are always two copies, one for each party between which the grant is made.

When Matthew Reynolds, special attorney in charge, did his investigation (going as far as Mexico City), it is very noteworthy that he could find no corresponding documents as far as the "Peralta land grant." Sevaro Mallet-Provost, who was appointed to assist, was sent to Spain to investigate the archives there and found nothing there, either.

Surely for such a large land grant, the "church" or "Mexican goverment" would have kept a copy, or some kind of record. But nothing of the kind was found, (paving the way for the US Government to prosecute Reavis) so it is pretty much given that the whole thing was nothing more than a con.

I may be wrong,but I thought that reavis was prosecuted for have fraudulent papers that he mixed with real documents to make himself the owner.

 

[somehiker]

To Mike and Wayne

In all my life I have heard about people to make grants to the Church . Is the first time when I heard how the Church make a grant of many hundred square miles land to a family . For what ? To help them to survive ?
Usually the Church make land grants for a social interest ( schools, hospitals , etc. ) .
Don't forget how in that era the Church was the Ambassador of the King .

And why to had burro loads of gold ore when they have arrastas amd smelter ?

Why the " Church " had chosen the miners Peralta ?

We must to look behind the appearance .

Marius:

Since I have already given my opinion of the "grant" part of the legend, I will let Mike answer your questions.
And while there have been references made to arrastres and furnaces for smelting, of which examples have been found,
the only physical evidence of Peralta massacre gold has been in the form of concentrated ore in old and rotted leather containers.
Indeed, if the grinders and furnaces were constructed and used by the Peraltas, which has been difficult to establish, what would this have to do with any "Church" treasure. Although the Peraltas IMO, were likely very supportive of the Church, I doubt they were privy to the location(s) of any cached valuables.

Regards:SH.

 

[deducer]

I may be wrong,but I thought that reavis was prosecuted for have fraudulent papers that he mixed with real documents to make himself the owner.

And one way to prove that those papers were fraudulent was to show that there was no corresponding documents held by either the church or the government.