The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[gollum]

No Problem,

You will NEVER get me to believe that MOST Mexicans didn't fear losing their all if the US won that war.

Yes, I lean heavily to the side of authentic after all the public and private information I have gotten, since starting this thing. I have received pictures of the originals, of copies (old), and copies (newer).

One thing above all else stands out to me: EVERY single person who has possessed the Stone Maps, spent much of their time and money trying to unlock their secrets. The most important being Travis Tumlinson. Being the man who found the Stone Maps, he would most likely have had to have been in on it, if they were modern fakes. If he would have known they were fakes, he would have NEVER spent as much time and money as he did going into the supers (about a dozen times). If he knew they were fakes, he would NEVER have given them to his brother, and let his brother believe they were real for several years. He would have NEVER kept the Stone Maps' existence a secret until after his death. If he knew they were fakes, he would have publicized them, and sold them long before he died.

Whether Travis Tumlinson found the Stone Maps near a rest stop along Highway 60, or got them from his father (after them being stolen from a mission in Arizpe), it makes no difference to the fact that by virtue of what he did with them while they were in his possession, he thought that they were REAL.

Travis' brother Robert Tumlinson FIRMLY believed the Stone maps were real. Evidenced by his sitting in the Camelot Bar every day talking about how he was going to find the Lost Dutchman Mine, and be rich (just as soon as he could get a partner with the money to pay for the trips to Arizona). He also kept the stones a secret (except from his landlord/partner).

Clarence O. Mitchell, and his partners at MOEL Inc, FIRMLY believed in the authenticity of the stones, because MOEL was formed solely because he bought the stones from Travis Tumlinson's widow. MOEL had the stones tested at UC Redlands in 1962. Under microscopic examination, there were not found to be any modern tool/machine marks, on the surface of the stones. When the SEC asked the FBI for assistance during the course of their investigation. The FBI found out that UC Redlands had done the same tests they would have done, just two years earlier. They contacted Professor Dana (the head of UC Redland's Geology Dept.), and obtained a certificate stating that due to the absence of modern tool/machine marks, and some other test factors, they believed the carvings on the stones to be at least 100 years old (in 1962). I have several SEC Documents but have promised not to post them until given permission. When MOEL broke up in 1965, Mitchell had a set of copies of the stones made. He gave two real stones, and two copies to a partner, and kept two original stones, and two of the copies. All four of Mitchell's stones were later donated to the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum/A.L. Flagg Foundation. Since being their, there have about 27-30 copies made of the stones.

Actions speak MUCH louder than words! EVERY owner of the stones treated them like they were real, not like they were fakes.

So, YES, with the possible exception of the stones being an old fraud (part of the Reavis Deal), I believe them to be authentic Treasure Maps.Whether they had anything to do with the Peraltas (or even Arizona for that matter), is another subject.

Best,

Mike

 

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[gollum]

HEY! What happened? I see that I just lost about 50 posts somewhere!

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLY cow! This has grown to three pages! Yikes!

Mike you are sure welcome to your views as to Mexicans and approaching Americans. Conquering armies invading do raise alarms, however in the Mexican war this does not seem to have been on the same level with other wars.

To me, the fact that Tumlinson and/or MOEL thought they were genuine still doesn't make them genuine. It only shows that they believed they were genuine. As to Reavis involvement, it seems a guarantee-lock that he had no hand in them or he would have brought them forward. Thanks for sharing your reasons why you lean toward the stones validity.
Oroblanco

 

[MesaBuddy]

A horse is a horse of course

 

[MesaBuddy]

WHo's RD very old initials
Randy I noticed you were asking questions about the Ft. McDowell strip shoot me an email and I"ll take you up there
Best Regards
MesaB

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HOLA, show 3 times as much of the rock, por favor.

Till Eulen-- errr Tropical Tramp

 

[MesaBuddy]

Nada nada Joseph you"ll have to come with me
Su Amigo
MesaB

 

[Oroblanco]

WHo's RD very old initials

Er, I can give you a hint - my name is Roy Decker....hope this doesn't give away how old I really am!

 

[audigger53]

O.K. He admited to defacing Federal Property!
Ten years or $10,000 or both.
I'm turning you in for the informers fee.<G>

 

[gollum]

To me, the fact that Tumlinson and/or MOEL thought they were genuine still doesn't make them genuine. It only shows that they believed they were genuine. As to Reavis involvement, it seems a guarantee-lock that he had no hand in them or he would have brought them forward. Thanks for sharing your reasons why you lean toward the stones validity.
Oroblanco

It's a simple thing Oro,

If they were modern fakes, Travis Tumlinson would 99% likely to have been in on it. He did not treat the stones like a man who knew they were fakes. You seem to just disregard the tests performed by UC Redlands on the stones. Those tests were good enough for the FBI and the SEC to believe them to be at least 100 years old, and if the carvings were at least 100 years old in 1961-1962, that kind of makes it tough for Barry Storm to have had anything to do with their making.

I also have good information that there is a good chance the stones were not found where Tumlinson said they were. There is a good chance that Tumlinson got them from his father, who either stole them, or bought them from the man who stole them from a mission in Arizpe. I can't go into more detail, as the person who gave me the info asked me not to divulge anything that hasn't already been posted (on another website), but there is good evidence to that effect.

And about the mispellings; I believe they were done intentionally as part of the clues on that stone. The more I think about it, the more I can't understand why ANYBODY would mispell a stone carving. A real stonecutter, would most likely have been somewhat educated, and know how to spell some very common Spanish words (Caballo and Corazon). Likewise, a forger would NEVER (accidentally) mispell words on something they were trying to perpetrate a fraud with! That makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me! No! The mispellings were intentional, either to perpetrate a fraud, and make people think an illiterate carved them, or were mispelled on purpose as part of the clues.

Best,

Mike

 

[rochha]

Mike,

Mispelled words are usually the first place to look for coded information. Dates are another place for coded info as well.

rochha

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Mispelled words are usually the first place to look for coded information. Dates are another place for coded info as well.

rochha

Yes, my friend, I know, but that argument has been used by many people (even one here, ORO ), as a reason to disbelieve their authenticity.

If it were a hand written letter, I could believe the mispellings were accidental, but I can find NO good reason why the words would be mispelled accidentally on a carving (real or fake).

Best,

Mike

 

[rochha]

Mike,

Maybe the good reason was it was done on " purpose " to draw your attention to that word that is mispelled.

rochha

 

[gollum]

Hey Folks,

It makes all the sense in the world. The horse itself is part of the map codes. Three parts of the horse really stand out:
1. The Rump. It is a PERFECT horizontal "3" or script "E"

2. The Mane. The way it's carved, it looks like a mountain range.

3. The Tail. The tail looks for all the world, like a running river.

Just food for thought!

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Natch, Black Beard, show it, but not the actual "X".

Topical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

O.K. He admited to defacing Federal Property!
Ten years or $10,000 or both.
I'm turning you in for the informers fee.<G>

Hey that is artwork created before it was illegal! I am charging a copyright fee for the use of photos of this artwork, only $20,000 per use! It is also the corner marker of my mining claim and treasure trove claim, so anything you find within 1/4 mile belongs to "R D" 8)

Gollum wrote:
If they were modern fakes, Travis Tumlinson would 99% likely to have been in on it.

That is your assumption, which you then proceed to prove false, since Tumlinson did not behave as if he knew they were fakes - why do you assume it is 99% likely that he would have been "in on it"? Not the simplest answer...

Let me give you an example. Lets say for this example that John Doe decides to make up some fake stones, for laughs or whatever reason people make fakes for. Doe then plants them where he is relatively sure someone will find them. John Smith and his family, out on vacation, stop and "find" the fake stones planted by Doe. Smith proceeds to try to find the treasures that the fakes purport to be clues to, but fails. Does that mean that either Smith is 99% likely to have been involved on the making of the frauds, or that the Doe fakes are the genuine article? Or is it just a matter that the FINDER was indeed innocent of fraud, which does not mean it is not a fraud. Then we learn that Tumlinson might have been lying about the finding of the stones - well does that reinforce your belief that they are more likely genuine, or increase the levels of doubts? Think about how you would look at this if it were a civil court case.

You seem to just disregard the tests performed by UC Redlands on the stones.

Yep! Guilty as charged! And why do I disregard those tests? The stones were CLEANED before they were examined, therefore NO accurate estimate of the age was (or is) possible, without other artifacts (organics which could be carbon-14 tested or coins) the age is utterly a guess. Worse, the experts who are supposed to have examined the stones are NOT experts in epigraphy, which is what should have been contacted. You seem to ignore these two salient points Mike, for some reason.

I also have good information that there is a good chance the stones were not found where Tumlinson said they were.

Then we must necessarily impune the veracity of everything the Tumlinsons have had to say about the stones. If they would lie about the original finding of the stones, what else are they lying about?

And about the mispellings; I believe they were done intentionally as part of the clues on that stone. The more I think about it, the more I can't understand why ANYBODY would mispell a stone carving. Likewise, a forger would NEVER (accidentally) mispell words on something they were trying to perpetrate a fraud with! That makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me! No! The mispellings were intentional, either to perpetrate a fraud, and make people think an illiterate carved them, or were mispelled on purpose as part of the clues.

How many stone inscriptions have you studied? Perhaps you should look at some of the hundreds of fakes which were submitted back when the lost Roanoke colony was hot. (A researcher in NC offered cash for any stones found with old inscriptions on them, and he obtained LOTS of them.) I was researching the subject (Roanoke) and contacted a university in NC that has possession of the numerous fakes, and got to study them - mis-spelling is VERY common in frauds! Look up the King Solomon Tablet (also known as the Jehoash Inscription) which was the recent fraud scandal that made the news, which had fooled many of the top experts in the field! Fakes ABOUND, and bad spelling is extremely common in the frauds, a clue taken by the experts to being a fake! Mis-spelling in order to be a part of a 'code'? Really, you assume this after just giving me a whole spiel about how un-informed and poorly educated the Mexicans of the period prior to and during the Mexican war were? Read this bit on the James ossuary, another FRAUD that fooled some of the experts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ossuary Mis-spelled stone inscriptions are usually NOT deliberate, it is because the forger doesn't know the correct spelling.

(inscription on James Ossuary - looks genuine doesn't it?)

Then too, think about this little point - if you are making an inscription in stone, and make a mistake, it is not possible to erase it and correct your error!

On the other hand, it is quite possible the mis-spelling is intentional, however this still does not mean the stones are authentic maps to anything - just that the creator of the stones wanted to 'spice up' his frauds that much more.

It makes all the sense in the world. The horse itself is part of the map codes.

Yes obviously why if you line up the horse's rump on the evening of the spring equinox with the rising moon (which must coincide with the full phase) while you are standing on top of Weaver's needle, it points to the next clue in the series.... (heh heh) Fun, yes, but genuine maps to lost treasures?

Blackbeard wrote:
It's simplistic bible gematria made form the misspelled words and the count of the letters from the Priest Map and converted to the spanish word "Bowl" which is Masonic for the "Golden Bowl" a Masons language of Treasure. That's code for the "Golden Skull of the Silver Backbone". All totals that equal "6"6"6" were taken out and the word "Beales" is part of the "Key".


Yeesh! Do you really think these stones are that cryptically involved? This would be incredibly difficult to prove. Not to say that there are NOT real codes in existence, but why would you conclude that there is some tie-in here with these Peralta stones? I like the way your mind works Blackbeard, just seems to me that your talents might be wasted with these Peralta stones.

I have to ask you this, and I know it may take up some of your time to do it so if you don't feel like wasting your time just to prove a point I will understand and just do my own looking - but Mike, do you know of any other existing, known-to-be-genuine-beyond-any-doubt, Spanish or Mexican inscription in stone, that was some kind of map - which included a MIS-spelled word or two? I could not locate a single example that parallels the so-called Peralta stones. There may be examples, which is why I am asking you (you seem to be pretty good at researching things) if you know of any? This point alone raises my hackles.

Today, while reading posts, it finally occurred to me what bothered me about the stones. Its the actual picture of the horse.

Number 1. Its a picture of a draft horse

Number 2. Its a CARTOON of a draft horse.

Just like the ones in the comic strips back in the early 1920's or 30's.

Hmm - now I wonder about the date of the creation of these stones even more! The horses used by Mexicans prior to the wholesale arrival of Americans/Gringos were NOT draft type horses, they were the small, Spanish mustangs; the other available draft animals being burros (donkeys) mules (smaller than American draft mules also since they were bred from mustang mares) and oxen. A draft horse would have been exceedingly rare in Mexican Arizona.

Not to repeat too much here, the believers are going to continue to believe they are genuine, the dis-believers to doubt them. They are interesting, certainly - and I would consider further research into the "Heart" stone worthy of pursuit, but would hesitate before sending anyone into the hills using them as 'maps' unless it were just for fun.

I guess I can put it another way - for a person who believes the stones are genuine, here is a question to consider: Do you consider the stones genuine enough, that you would invest say $10,000 in them? That is along the lines of what MOEL did, and got into trouble for it. We are not going to be able to prove them either way, unless someone can prove a forger, or finds treasure using them. Heck they may prove to be the genuine article yet. However I would bet cash against it. Think about some of the frauds that have been pulled over the years, from the Cardiff Giant to the Death Valley Treasure supposedly found in a cave, there are plenty enough of them and when we come to the Superstition mountains and the legend of lost gold mines there, we have strong "motive" for the hoax-sters to get involved. This does not automatically mean that it was Barry Storm, he was my choice for a leading suspect if we had to name one - it is more possible that the forger is just an anonymous person. Bicknell is another possibility, Reavis is preferred by some but with him I feel certain that he would have produced them in court or hired someone to bring them to court. Perpetrators of frauds do NOT always come forward and admit their frauds before they die - sad to say but it is fact. Legends like the Peralta tale can be based on facts, and they can also be fiction, with these stones it seems just too illogical to be real. Remember that old saying - "If it sounds too good to be true..."?

Oroblanco

Postscript - I hope no one takes personal affront if anyone chooses to believe or disbelieve in the validity of the Peralta stones - it is no reflection on anyone whether they are genuine or frauds, other than the creators. The experts can be wrong, and so can we. With these it is not possible to reach an absolute answer, at least so far.

"Do you know what it means to come home at night to a woman who'll give you a little love, a little affection, a little tenderness? It means you're in the wrong house." --George Burns

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Randy for the kind words! 8)

These danged stones are the most pesky things related to the Superstitions IMHO. If they had never been found, would it change anything? I almost wish they were genuine, then it would be a relatively simple matter of working out the site to dig - and if they prove to be genuine I will sure be kicking myself pretty hard. Apparently there is plenty of interest in them - this thread has had over 1800 hits so far and stretched into three pages of posts. I guess my biggest problem with them is this - if I believed they were genuine, I would put them to the test and go head in to the Superstitions via the southern route as is shown; and we know that the Tumlinsons did just that, and found exactly -nothing- in the way of treasures or lost mines by using them. That fact alone bothers me the most for if they are genuine, and these folks used them and couldn't find diddly, then there seems to be something fatally wrong with them. So even if genuine, what good are they as maps to treasure?

Oh well - heck Mel Fisher spent years searching the wrong site for the Atocha, until someone found that the names of the islands had changed over the centuries, perhaps that is the case here? Something so simple that once this flaw is known, we will wonder why no one has figured that out and found the mines/treasures long ago. That is the other problem with the stones, again even if they are genuine - for since they were reported as found all in one spot, that suggests that someone had already used them and very well could have already found and removed what ever treasure they may have been maps TO. If that is the case, even if someone works out the flaw(s) there could very well be nothing left up there to find!

Check out out some of the known genuine Spanish inscriptions from Inscription Rock (NM) and notice how they look:

and


Anyway thanks again, I hope you have a great day!
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

"I remember the first time I had sex - I kept the receipt." ---Groucho Marx

 

[MesaBuddy]

O K Roy Decker I see you have been up to El Morro to eh ?? it is a great place to go and check out lots of history there
Warm Regards
MesaB



http://www.nps.gov/elmo/index.htm

 

[gollum]

I don't proceed to prove my assumption false. I only show that the most likely person to be in on the stones fakery, did not treat them as such. Read carefully.

Your idea that someone would take the time and effort to make those stones, and not want to profit from them in SOME way is ridiculous. I don't know how much spare time you have on your hands, but why don't you try to replicate them yourself. See how much work is involved.

How do you know how well they were cleaned? Can you be certain that there wasn't any organic matter in those grooves? If they had been underground all that time, who knows where those roots got into. Funny thing how you can blythely ignore something that seemed to satisfy the FBI and SEC. I would think that if there was the thought that they may be fakes, the SEC would have had a strong case for FRAUD. Fraud was never charged in the 1964 case, because they had the test results. If there would have been any suspicion that the stones were fakes, they would have had further tests done. That didn't happen either. If the information they had, satisfied two Federal Law Enforcement Agencies, it's good enough for me. Dismiss it if you want.

Once again, if the stones were microscopically examined, maybe they did find traces of organic matter. Can you say positively that they didn't? I don't think so. You use the "James Ossuary" as an example, but the problem with that, is that the ossuary was carved in ARAMAIC. A language that has been dead for a couple of thousand years. It's easy to understand why there were grammatical and/or syntax errors, since it is not a spoken language. The Spanish used in the Stone Maps is still spoken today. Bad example.

About Tumlinson finding the stones. Your logic is all over the place on this subject. FOCUS! ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS! Don't look at what Travis and Robert Tumlinson SAID about the stones. Look at how they treated them! It doesn't matter whether they found them, or got them from his father. They treated the stone maps like they were authentic.

Mispellings? JEEEZ! Can't a person change their mind based on new information? If you look carefully at the workmanship and detail on the stones, it's not very likely that the stones were carved by an illeterate (possible, but unlikely). Yes, there are tons of fakes that have beenmispelled. The GREAT majority of them were of dead languages. Simple carvings could be mispelled accidentally. I have actually been in the inscribed stones storeroom at UNC. Lots of modern fakes, easily identified. There are also numerous stones they can't so easily toss out. There's even one that still sits in a stream, not too far from the coast. It hasn't been moved because it is a boulder.

It's funny how you blythely dismiss the horse as being part of the map. Besides what I mentioned, take another look at the horse here:

Notice that there are marks on the horse itself. That's your first big clue! If you look closely at it, instead of being a smarta$$ , you may see something!

Now BlackBeard,

It's my turn to be a smarta$$! WHAT??

BRAIN DAMAGE ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGEDAINBRAMAGE

So, your assertion is that the Stone maps lead to a Masonic Treasure? Or maybe the Beale Treasure? OK. Please break down how you broke the code. This is some cryptography for the ages! Remember, fantastic claims require fantastic proof!

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=djui5 ]
Maybe they lead here..
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_orionzone_9.htm
Another artist
**********

ALLO mi friend Djui, fascinating story. I am curious---

A) He reportedly took some 30 - 40 Archaeologists and assorted Scientists to the cave, so
(1) It cannot be that difficult of access since most Academicians are not noted for being in fine physical condition, nor for taking unnecessary chances..
(2) Some papers must have been published on this site, so a simple review should turn up some information.

Tropical Tramp