Greetings Mike, Tropical Tramp and everyone,
Gollum wrote:
how did ANY Mexicans in the area know how they would be treated AFTER the war?
Naturally SOME would be worried that they would lose everything, yet we know from the actual reports of both sides and letters written by Mexicans living in the "invaded" areas that the fear was not that great - in fact the evacuation of Tucson was at gunpoint by the Mexican garrison, that night a large number of the residents returned and were even fired upon by American soldiers on picket duty who mistook the returning civilians for enemy soldiers. Your position that they would not have filed claims is dependent upon the discovery being made during the war - so has to be AFTER April of 1846, (first Mexican military moves, war officially started May 13th 1846) and BEFORE the treaty of Guadeloupe-Hidalgo February 2, 1848. We know that the one Peralta stone has the date "1847" so seems (on the surface) to be perfectly in keeping with this thesis.
We know that American troops entered Mexico city September 14, 1847, and the Americans expected a negotiated peace treaty shortly afterwards which did not occur. However the situation in what is today Arizona was quite different! General Stephen Kearny (also spelled Kearney) invaded what is now New Mexico in the summer of 1846, securing Santa Fe in August before continuing on. Kearny had crossed Arizona into California early December 1846; US forces entered Tucson in December right after the Mexican garrison had withdrawn.
The Mexican government of the state of Sonora did not support the Mexican national government against the Americans, using the excuse that they required all of their existing military forces to defend against the hostile Indios (mostly Apaches)! Check out this letter from Col Cooke, commander of the Mormon Battalion to the Mexican governor of Sonora:
quote
"Camp at Tucson, Sonora, Dec. 18th, 1846.
Your Excellency:—The undersigned, marching in command of a battalion of United States Infantry, from New Mexico to California, has found it convenient for the passage of his wagon train, to cross the frontier of Sonora. Having passed within fifteen miles of Fronteras, I have found it necessary to take this presidio in my route to the Gila.
Be assured that I did not come as an enemy of the people whom you represent; they have received only kindness at my hands. Sonora refused to contribute to the support of the present war against my country, alleging the excellent reasons that all her resources were necessary to her defence from the incessant attacks of savages; that the central government gave her no protection, and was, therefore, entitled to no support. To this might have been added that Mexico supports a war upon Sonora. For I have seen the New Mexicans within her boundary trading for the spoil of her people, taken by murderous, cowardly Indians, who attack only to lay waste, rob and fly to the mountains, and I have certain information that this is the practice of many years; thus one part of Mexico allies itself against another.
The unity of Sonora with the States of the north, now her neighbors, is necessary effectually to subdue these Parthian Apaches.
Meanwhile I make a wagon road from the streams of the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean, through the valuable plains, and mountains rich with minerals, of Sonora. This, I trust, will prove useful to the citizens of either republic, who, if not more closely, may unite in the pursuits of a highly beneficial commerce.
With sentiments of esteem and respect, I am your Excellency's most obedient servant,
P. St. George Cooke, Lieut.-Colonel of United States Forces, to his Excel'y Sen. Don. Manuel Gandara.
Governor of Sonora, Ures, Sonora." end quote
Now of course these attitudes of the Americans could not have been known BEFORE-hand, remember that date on the stone - 1847 which is AFTER the Americans had taken possession of the territory! So for this idea of the Peralta stones to be valid maps of lost Peralta gold mines, we have to assume that the party was in the Superstitions in 1847, while the region was under control of Americans. True, there was an uprising of Mexicans in January of '47, but the insurrection was quickly put down that very month. Does it seem logical that a party of armed Mexican prospectors-miners would go venturing into the Superstitions, passing American troop garrisons, not be noticed by the American troops who were on the watch for hostile Mexican forces (especially since they had an insurrection in January) there to be massacred by Apaches (or perhaps Yavapais?). The premise does not seem to be logical to ME anyway - especially in light of the fact that Mexican civilians had been evacuated by force and a majority returned immediately afterwards, that the American forces made it clear upon their arrival and even before (remember the letters dispatched to Mexican local authorities, I have only posted one here) that Mexican civilians would not be dispossessed of their properties, that a large, armed party of Mexican men would go un-noticed passing through American controlled territories (remember Doniphan's force had gained control of most areas to the south) only to be massacred by hostile Indios. Can you imagine forming up a party of armed men, to go off prospecting/mining into American controlled territory? To make this idea of the Peralta stones fit, that is what must have been done - and this with the Mexican authorities keeping a rather tight control over the civilians (not too effective apparently) and in the middle of a war? If the mines were discovered prior to the war, then there would have been NO reason NOT to file claims (denounce) on them, and obtain legal titles.
This large party of armed men would have to secretly slip past the Mexican military garrisons on the way north to the Superstitions, not stop and buy provisions/food/replace worn out mules, horses etc; then slip past the American troops who were also watching for any incursions by Mexican forces, and get to the mines. This idea seems to me rather un-believable. The timetable of the Mexican war makes the date on the stones suspect. If the Peralta party (which is not documented anywhere concurrently) were to attempt to go to secret mines in the Superstitions, why would they have not gone before war broke out, (in which case there is NO reason NOT to denounce mining claims) or after the war was over (and not risk being attacked/imprisoned by American forces) when they could file mining claims?
I know this subject has been beaten to death, the believers are going to continue to believe, the disbelievers continue to disbelieve and we can only argue the matter ad infinitum. For my own opinion, these stones have all the hallmarks of being a fraud, and three of them probably no older than the 1940s (personal opinion) and until someone can prove to me that Barry Storm was NOT involved, I continue to suspect his hand at work here or that of Bicknell, both known to embellish and confabulate fact with fiction concerning gold in the Superstition mountains. There is no record of the stones prior to their discovery in 1949; therefore Reavis/Peralta could not have known of them (so are by extension not guilty of creating them) as we know that Reavis DID create stone inscriptions to bolster his fraudulent land claims. We have known records of Peraltas mining and prospecting in Sonora/Arizona, and these known records show that they operated legally, filing legal claims on the mineral prospects they discovered and NOT known to act surreptitiously. The known records of Peraltas show no Peraltas living in what is now Arizona in the 1840s, of course the theory that they mounted expeditions from southern Sonora explains that away. There is no record of any large party of Mexicans that went "missing" in the period of the Mexican war, during which these Peralta stones are supposed to have been created; in fact the date on them means the Peraltas would have been operating inside of American controlled territory and had to slip past the armed forces of both sides, who are known to have had pickets/scouts watching all known routes and passes. The remains found at the massacre site were believed by two of the three men who discovered them to have been that of an unfortunate party of Pimas, the third opinion was that they were Mexicans (and by extension, Peraltas) based in large part on the finding of one skull with a gold tooth. It can be proven that Indians also obtained gold teeth, even the wildest Apaches have been documented as having taken advantage of European dentistry. I believe that the conclusion of the officer was correct, that the massacre victims were Pimas and not Mexicans. Pima Indians were not like Hollywood Indians running about half-naked with feather warbonnets etc they wore cotton and wool clothing, wide brimmed hats and sandals and would appear more like Mexicans than any Amerindians from a distance; it would be easy enough to mistake the remains of unfortunate Pimas for Mexicans.
There have been many theories as to lost mines in the Superstitions, from Jesuits to Peraltas but we find on close examination that many of the theories are not well supported with documents, archives etc or are suspect on time-lines. If any missionaries were active in the Superstitions, I would suspect Franciscans and not Jesuits, though we know that the Franciscan period was one of steady decline and gradual de-population of the whole of Pimeria Alta by the Spanish-Mexican inhabitants. The period is also one of increased raiding and conflict with Apaches, hardly one of increased prospecting activities, in fact when we examine the Mexican records of the period we find lists of mines, rancherias, even presidios being abandoned due to Indian harrassment and raids. True, there was a relatively brief flurry of prospecting and mining activity shortly after the Jesuits left 1767, but this activity was concentrated south and west of Tucson, (Ciengeguilla placers, Planchas de Plata silver etc) not north in the Superstitions which area was very much under Apache control. A problem exists today in that there were literally dozens and dozens of prospect pits, shafts sunk, and tunnel drifts dug out in the period AFTER the death of Jacob Waltz 1891, virtually all of which were later abandoned when it was discovered that these prospects were virtually worthless; US records of gold production show not a single ounce recovered in the Superstitions from the death of Waltz til record keeping ended 1960s, which tells you just how much gold was produced from the many prospects on Black Mesa - none worth reporting. (Recall that all gold produced was supposed to be reported.) These old prospects are frequently "discovered" today by explorers in the Superstitions, who then assume these must be the old Peralta mines when they were in reality hardly mines, let alone owned or operated by Peraltas. It is actually an insult to the old Dutchman to imply that the only way he could have obtained a rich gold mine was to have stolen it from, or murdered Peraltas, when we know that Waltz was in fact an experienced prospector who had worked in the gold fields of California and in the Bradshaws in Arizona before exploring in the Superstitions, and that Waltz had a portable drywasher built that he carried into the mountains prior to his discovery. Even the simple numbers involved are a factor in deciding the veracity - for the Peralta lost gold mines are supposed to number from eight to 18, while with Waltz it is a single lost mine. It makes more sense that so many thousands of people have searched for a single lost mine without success than if the same number poring over the Superstitions had entirely failed to locate even ONE of EIGHT, much less eighteen. We have no records of any Peraltas selling or trading any gold in the 1840s, (remember that "royal fifth" tax, well after independence the Mexican government didn't stop taxing!) while we DO have records of Waltz trading and shipping gold. In conclusion, it is my considered opinion that when we talk about Jacob Waltz and a single lost gold mine, we are talking about a real lost mine, but when we turn to legendary Peralta mines in the Superstitions and the accompanying stone "maps" we are talking fiction. One of the stones, the "heart" stone, has the correct appearance of being ancient, but there is no reason to connect this stone to anything in the Superstitions, it may not even be related to anything in the United States for that matter. I will go even farther out onto the limb and say that the heart stone probably does not relate to anything in the Superstitions whatsoever! If someone wishes to use those stones as "maps" I wish them all the luck, hope they have fun and I would sure be happy to eat my words, but I have no confidence they will find anything through the use of the stones other than good exercise in some of the prettiest (and a tad dangerous) country in the whole of the USA. The tale of Peralta secret lost gold mines, stone maps and massacres are great for telling around the campfire, but not worthy of pursuing as real leads to real lost mines IMHO.
Thanks for your time, and I hope you all have a great day!
Roy ~ Oroblanco
? No secrecy any more eh?
