The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Springfield]

Cubfan,

No - I don't think they would lose. But, they have lost one or two times. I remember when Pennsylvania decided that all navigable waters belonged to the state, and you couldn't even take a river rock off your own stream on your own land.

My girlfriend and some others lived by the river, and it flooded, and ruined some really expensive stuff. They got together and sued the state - it was their water - and won. The state appealed - the state lost. So, they ended up paying the homeowners.

Here, in Wyoming and South Dakota - if a wild animal ruins something of yours - or kills one of your animals - the fish and game department pay for that damage.

But, you know, and I know, some day - someone, using those newer maps - is going to get hurt or die depending on them.

Tell me, have you checked out geo-communicator lately - they are "down-sizing" their available information. The government does not want us on their land. (saying their land 'tongue in cheek).

Beth

I agree with your thoughts concerning the removal of pertinent information from the USGS quads. I posted some info a couple years ago about the tactic and mentioned my aquaintence with one of the mappers who was editing the quads here in SW NM. If you want that info, get the old maps.

I totally disagree that the government is liable for some individual's poor judgement on public lands resulting in injury/death to himself. I don't want the government responsible for my actions - I'll handle the risk and consequences myself, thank you.

Regarding 'our land', wouldn't it be interesting if a legal and enforceable land claim could be executed that proved that North America belonged to another pre-1776 party? Meet the new boss.

 

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[Blindbowman]

i dont know about all of north america but the Peralta stones claim was made in 1603-1609 ...

as for correcting charts ..i hate to tell you the standerds are not what most think they are .. charts are very diffrent then maps .. and the corrections are much the same between the two types .. the diffrence between the old maps and new ones is very dangerous to those that are willing to go off trail .. i beleive that was by design..and i would know first hand ...yet the out areas have less detail why the trails and thus are better marked ... and i do agree with you .. the right for anyone to go off trail is their right .. this wilderness area is own by the people not the goverment .. it is fedrally protected for the people ..


the only real question is dose the goverment remember who we are ...? lol

 

[Hal Croves]

ms. oroblanco,
I can not say that I agree with you. Any treasure hunter worth his/her salt would know how important it is to share their destination when hiking off to remote and dangerous locations. The DOI, a government agency, is not about to use that information to jump someones claim... which in the SWA, is not an issue anyway. Seems to me that only someone working illegally, with nefarious intentions would scoff at the idea. Please, I am not directing this comment towards you, only the thinking behind any ad-version to a required check-in. If you stop and think about it, once you become lost or injured, you immediately place all the people who set out to find you at risk. Then there is the financial burden on the state or local gov. I understand the frustration I read here with the Forest Service, but they have been given an impossible.

And regarding maps and litigation, read your maps... they have a disclaimer which would protect them. The secrecy involved in treasure hunting is a major problem, but I guess an unavoidable human need.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Hal,

Well, I do think that was directed at me, considering, you started with my name.

That said - there is a very big difference between people knowing where you are, and reporting to the government where you are going. (imo),
nothing evil, wicked, illegal or "nefarious' about it. When we are packing it in - there are always people who know where we are going, and, if I ever turn up missing, there is a journal in my vehicle with all my intended areas.

Since you cannot have a claim in the wilderness - then, that worry is not a real worry with the government. However, it does not take a genius to figure out that, with a sign-in sheet, that I could look and see where everyone is going, as they could see where I was going.

Believe it or not - I don't think my government needs to know where I am going, nor does the guy who comes a day after me. Last I looked, it was still an almost free country, and asking the government's permission to go somewhere, just rubs me the wrong way. I'm already ticked at the way the government acts about us using public lands, I don't need them treating me as one of their children.

And, just as an aside - ALL government employees are human beings, and there has been more than one that I know of, who have special interests in the treasures or treasure hunting of others.

In fact, to tell the truth - I think its a little "nefarious" to want to track where everybody goes. Is this supposed to be a "nanny" state? I take responsibility for my own well-being - I don't need the government "protecting me" from myself. Big Brother is watching you.

I have ALWAYS advocated not going off to tim-buck-two without being prepared, and ready, with back ups, and always having trusted individuals not only know where you are, but, to not go alone, if possible. However, to me, the government will NEVER be a "trusted individual".

Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

Just an opinion here, but I have to disagree with Springfield on governmental liability for injury or death, in the case where that individual was harmed due to trusting the newest, and what would be believed to be the most up to date topographic maps that have been altered to remove such potential dangers as old mineshafts or life saving features such as springs and trails. Were you to make such alterations to maps and someone were harmed by trusting your map, you would certainly be held liable. It is one thing for someone to be harmed due to their taking a risk, but another thing when risks have been erased (and thus hidden) by government employees working for taxpayer dollars producing maps for the public to use. This editing has been explained as "to protect the resource" against human overuse or destruction but human life is more valuable in my opinion than keeping an old mine shaft a secret.

Also, the government loses liability cases quite regularly, from such things as persons suffering a fall on a slippery floor to some quite far fetched causes. Several enviro-mental groups have been using lawsuits against the government to force regulations that they desire for decades. When someone falls into an erased mineshaft and sues the government agency responsible for that erasure, there is a very good chance that the government will lose. Perhaps that is what it will take to get our USGS to return to producing the highly accurate topo maps we had become accustomed to.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Hal Croves]

Well I can see your point, however I have never considered the government as a foe. If I were stuck out there in the SWA, with no possible hope for self-rescue, I would sure be happy knowing that someone in gov was making the effort to search for me. There are a number of ways to keep your information between you and the Forest Service. Leaving a journal in your car, with no one supervising it seems like more of a risk. Will someone break into the car and take it, will rescue workers even find the car in time? Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that all the secrecy involved in treasure hunting seems to me a dangerous thing. The thing to remember is that ANY treasure you find, belongs to someone else... those who buried it and the gov. We can really only own the right to claim discovery.

Beth - I addressed you only because you posted the comment and since I have know idea who you are, it is silly to assume I was writing about you.

I will tell you that there are a few people who work for the Tonto Forest service in law enforcement who I would trust with my life. It is just a matter of reaching out and building relationships. Do that and your position towards gov may change. I have also met people on this site that are quite remarkable and I am fortunate enough to trust them like a brother. Perhaps we just have had diffrent experiences.

Somehiker - A tethered hot-air balloon fueled with anything that would produce oil smoke... make sense. Fabricated from tight cotton or the silk the Jesuits were importing from Asia. They had the know how and motivation. Look up Jim Woodman - Nasca Lines

 

[Blindbowman]

if you thin k leaveing anything in your car is a good idea your most likely not going to be found ...

lets get real for a second .. jesse had a truck in the paking lot and a camp site and he was not found .. dose any of this sink in ... someone did not want him found ... thats my theory .. someone knew he was there and where he was going in that day .. you think a letter in the truck would have made a diffrence .. how do you know he didnt leave a letter and thats how the person located him ...?

you can keep your letter i would rather keep my life ...lol

 

[Springfield]

Just an opinion here, but I have to disagree with Springfield on governmental liability for injury or death, in the case where that individual was harmed due to trusting the newest, and what would be believed to be the most up to date topographic maps that have been altered to remove such potential dangers as old mineshafts or life saving features such as springs and trails. Were you to make such alterations to maps and someone were harmed by trusting your map, you would certainly be held liable. It is one thing for someone to be harmed due to their taking a risk, but another thing when risks have been erased (and thus hidden) by government employees working for taxpayer dollars producing maps for the public to use. .....

Actually, from a legal point of view, it seems like you've got your logic upside down. If a mapmaker deletes items from older maps, it seems as if he is also removing potential 'attractive nuisances' from the map, thus 'protecting' the public from the danger of entering old mines, traveling to possibly dried up springs, etc. It's similar to leaving your backyard swimming pool unfenced (old mine on map) vs. fencing the pool from unauthorized access (remove old mine from map). The rationale is 'out of sight, out of mind', or, 'what you don't know can't hurt you'.

For the record, I heartily disagree with your stance that the government is in any way liable for an individual's lack of judgement on public land. Taken to its extreme and inevitable conclusion, this theory could result in the closing of all public lands to citizens 'to insure their safety'. Doesn't work for me.

 

[Gossamer]

I have heard that there my have been foul play with Jesse, but why would anyone want to harm him?
Just reminds me of what my old busdriver used to say, there is dangerous places on the Superstition and dangerous people too.
Does anyone remember an old story, and I thought about this a long time ago, but this was how I remember it.
The Apaches took an old miner to a rich gold mine somewhere in the Sups (?) then blinded him so he could never find it again? Does anyone remember any legend like this?
Janiece

 

[Hal Croves]

It is not fair to Capen's family to speculate about his unsolved disappearance, however for the first time since I began posting, I would agree with BB. I will not explain why, but my feeling is that Capen (who was experienced in the SWA) was murdered. I will leave it at that and remind everyone that no crime (or criminal) is perfect. Time will tell.

 

[Cubfan64]

It is not fair to Capen's family to speculate about his unsolved disappearance, however for the first time since I began posting, I would agree with BB. I will not explain why, but my feeling is that Capen (who was experienced in the SWA) was murdered. I will leave it at that and remind everyone that no crime (or criminal) is perfect. Time will tell.

Hal - with all due respect, you began by saying it was not fair to speculate (one could argue that it's also disrespectful and thoughtless), but then went ahead and speculated.

As far as I'm aware Jesse's disappearance is still an open case, and unless a person has inside information, (in which case nothing at all should be said publicly) there's absolutely no way to know what happened to him. To even suggest murder openly is not a well thought out thing to say.

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

Actually, from a legal point of view, it seems like you've got your logic upside down. If a mapmaker deletes items from older maps, it seems as if he is also removing potential 'attractive nuisances' from the map, thus 'protecting' the public from the danger of entering old mines, traveling to possibly dried up springs, etc. It's similar to leaving your backyard swimming pool unfenced (old mine on map) vs. fencing the pool from unauthorized access (remove old mine from map). The rationale is 'out of sight, out of mind', or, 'what you don't know can't hurt you'.

For the record, I heartily disagree with your stance that the government is in any way liable for an individual's lack of judgement on public land. Taken to its extreme and inevitable conclusion, this theory could result in the closing of all public lands to citizens 'to insure their safety'. Doesn't work for me.

Ah, black and white, all or nothing approach. Apparently you do not see a distinction between making a hazard 'invisible' deliberately as a possible cause of a disaster, as opposed to someone deliberately stepping off a cliff. That is not what I stated, and in time you will see the lawsuits. A man recently fell into a mineshaft in Nevada which had been erased, but lived and (at last I knew) had not filed a lawsuit over it. As for erasing ancient Indian ruins, I have no problem with that being done to protect them, but old mines, trails and springs should never be erased unless they have been physically negated.

One more point here, the various government agencies which manage our public lands (and restrict our access to them, as well as set the regulations by which we must abide) have a responsibility to the public they serve. You may disagree but it is the truth.

Gossamer wrote

The Apaches took an old miner to a rich gold mine somewhere in the Sups (?) then blinded him so he could never find it again? Does anyone remember any legend like this?

Yes, it matches fairly closely with the sub plot in McKenna's Gold, with the tale of Adams having been blinded by the Apaches after being shown the gold.

Oroblanco

 

[Gossamer]

I kinda hoped it was just a figment of my imagination. As a child it haunted me that anyone could do that to another. Anyway, now I will have to study that.
I'm reading this Superstition Lies book, its very frank and interesting... wish he would have used spell check, lol. Interesting experiment this person participated in. Kinda like the way I do things. I will be interested to read the end of his quest.
Has anyone else read this book?
Janiece

 

[Oroblanco]

Janiece - the author of that book is a fellow member of T-net, had a short discussion a while ago but I think - oops I am thinking of the wrong book and author, "Lost Dutchman Lies" (Danny A. Adams) sorry about that.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

PS Janiece - one other thing, the story of the Lost Doc Thorn mine has striking similarities too; he had helped cure some Apaches and in form of repayment, they took him to a secret gold mine in the Superstitions, blindfolded, allowed him to take gold, then again blindfolded him and took him back to camp before releasing him. He made several trips to try to relocate the mine, as he believed he could pin point it since he had noticed the landmark Four Peaks when he was at the site. So that one also fits the legend you refer to only the blinding was a temporary arrangement. I think his name was Abraham Thorn, and you may find that name spelled Thorne as well. Sorry, slow and muddled thinking today but I will blame it on the heat (over 100 here) instead of age this time!

Roy

 

[Cubfan64]

Oro - you said

One more point here, the various government agencies which manage our public lands (and restrict our access to them, as well as set the regulations by which we must abide) have a responsibility to the public they serve. You may disagree but it is the truth.

I'm really torn on the subject of removing things like mine prospects, etc... from maps and how that could affect someone who accidently fell into one and was hurt or killed.

If I had to come down on one side of the issue, I would have to say that personal responsibility carries most of the weight for me. While an argument could be made that "erasing" locations on more recent maps causes undo hazards for someone who could stumble across one and be injured, I think just as good of an argument could be made that putting those locations on maps would cause some people to go visit them, and doesn't guarantee that a person STILL wouldn't get hurt.

Just something to think about Oro - how would you feel if the government/BLM decided that to be truly responsible to the public, all of the old prospect holes, caves, etc... should simply be filled in so that nobody could potentially get hurt? As outrageous as that may seem to us, I could see the government looking at that as an option - it's one I would be very disappointed in - again, I would rather personal responsibility be the most important thing.

 

[Cubfan64]

PS Janiece - one other thing, the story of the Lost Doc Thorn mine has striking similarities too; he had helped cure some Apaches and in form of repayment, they took him to a secret gold mine in the Superstitions, blindfolded, allowed him to take gold, then again blindfolded him and took him back to camp before releasing him. He made several trips to try to relocate the mine, as he believed he could pin point it since he had noticed the landmark Four Peaks when he was at the site. So that one also fits the legend you refer to only the blinding was a temporary arrangement. I think his name was Abraham Thorn, and you may find that name spelled Thorne as well. Sorry, slow and muddled thinking today but I will blame it on the heat (over 100 here) instead of age this time!

Roy

Roy - there may be a version of the story that has the indians taking him to a mine, but most of the ones I've read have him being taken to a spot where there was simply loose gold ore on the ground which he gathered as much as he could carry. It may seem like a minor distinction, but I personally think it's an important one.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cubfan wrote

Just something to think about Oro - how would you feel if the government/BLM decided that to be truly responsible to the public, all of the old prospect holes, caves, etc... should simply be filled in so that nobody could potentially get hurt? As outrageous as that may seem to us, I could see the government looking at that as an option - it's one I would be very disappointed in - again, I would rather personal responsibility be the most important thing.

They already started that avenue of approach, a campaign to seal up all the old mines and prospects in the Pacific northwest; strange to say but some enviro-mentals were against it, on the grounds that the old mines are now much used by local wildlife, including bats. There are a few mines that should have some kind of cage over the entrances, for they are so badly caving in that they are totally unsafe to enter at all. It was pointed out that in the east, there are many places where you must sign in etc and I know of a number of old coal mines that have an iron cage sealing the entrances, for they are so bad that not even a mine inspector will enter them. However a reasoned, case by case approach will never be followed, and what will more likely occur will be more and more restrictions on hikers for wilderness areas. Sign in sheets, permits for a campsite, only so many people allowed etc. Seal it all off for the use and benefit of the elite. I can even see the new signs, "Superstitions Mountains National Park" - camping only in assigned campgrounds, and no travel off the maintained trails!

One faulty reasoning when comparing regulations for the east versus the west, is that in the east, much of the now public lands were in fact purchased by various government agencies from individuals, not like the case in the west where the majority of the public lands are what was open to anyone to obtain by homestead, mine patent, desert entry etc and simply never were taken. These lands have always belonged to the public, while the case in the east is somewhat different, most of the lands were purchased or condemned (taken away) from private ownership so the government views those lands as if it were the proprietor. Also, sign in sheets and permits are the rule now in most (if not all) national parks, where access is limited and restricted; do we really want to create even more huge parks where our 'pursuit of happiness' is further restricted, when the national jewels (parks) have been so under-funded and un-maintained that they are in some cases becoming shameful to look upon?

I will get off the soapbox now. I have no way to tie this back to the topic matter, except in the most peripheral way.
Roy

 

[Springfield]

..... Just something to think about Oro - how would you feel if the government/BLM decided that to be truly responsible to the public, all of the old prospect holes, caves, etc... should simply be filled in so that nobody could potentially get hurt? As outrageous as that may seem to us, I could see the government looking at that as an option - it's one I would be very disappointed in - again, I would rather personal responsibility be the most important thing.

It's been happening for decades around here. I can take you to a hundred old adits and shafts that have been sealed to prevent access. The reason was/is to prevent naive humans, yes, but primarily livestock, IMO, from either falling down a shaft or entering an adit and falling down a raise. Some have been sealed by their owners for legal liability reasons. Many old workings are still open, however, and as a former underground miner, I can tell you that I've been in many of them and despite some very cool stuff inside (underground lake with rowboat, fantastic mineral specimens, great abandoned mining tools and equipment, etc.), these places are extremely dangerous even to experienced people and should be avoided. I've located one old opening, still accessible, that may hold who-knows-what goodies inside, and may be hundreds of years old, but so far I'm too afraid of it.

Is this practice good or bad? Despite Oro's 'only black or white' accusation, I actually see nearly everything in shades of gray, including this issue. It is what it is. We're not in the past - we're in the here and now. I'm sorry to see the mines sealed too - we've lost many good places to dump bodies (just kidding!!). If you locate a sealed mine you want to enter, I have no problem with you bringing a shovel and working it back open. Just remember, you are responsible for your own actions. Don't blame someone else if you get yourself in trouble or dead. Blame yourself.

Regarding new maps. If you want the information on the old maps instead, get the old maps.

 

[Springfield]

By the way, I see bb has pulled another thread from the forum, along with all his posts and those of others who attempted to communicate with him, including myself. bb, you can whistle up your a$$ from now on.