The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[okietreasurehunter]

Has anyone bothered to ask the museum if the stones displayed are replicas? I have heard this may be the case and would explain why they are so clean.

 

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[Springfield]

Geez guys .Heck the stones coulda been cleaned with hot air,for all I know.

The original questions about how and when they were first cleaned is rooted in the anecdotal account of Tumlinson's actions just after leaving the discovery site with the stones.According to at least one TT account,his car was low on water when he found the first stone.After fetching some water from Queen Creek for the car,and discovering the stone in the process,he next stopped at a gas station where he used a hose,likely first to top up his radiator,then to wash the dirt from the stone.

Some proponents of the "fake/fraud" theory have seized on the variances within the several accounts of the discovery,as recounted over a period of some years,as "evidence" that Tumlinson was telling tall tales about his discovery in 1949.

Hey,doesn't that pharaoh look just like Barry Storm?

Regards:SH.

A number of controversial carved artifacts have been discovered by innocent and unsuspecting amateurs all over America as development spread. Of course, the first thing an enthusiastic person will do is clean his discovery by scraping the grooves clean and scrubbing the thing as spotless as possible so that he can inspect it and maybe show it off to others. This act is, of course, a fatal move as far as academia is concerned, and gives the pointy-heads a slam-dunk reason to discredit the find as a hoax and therefore ignore the artifact's content and possible place in history. If the carvings don't fit in with the current dogma, so much the better - then, since it wasn't studied in situ by qualified professionals, they don't have to explain any discrepancies with accepted ideas. Many discredited discoveries are bona-fide, of course, but since we also have had many outragious frauds attempted, it becomes easy to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. It's too dangerous to rock the boat - the captain tends to throw troublemakers to the sharks you know.

The Peralta stones? If this were a horse race, I'd buy a 'show' ticket at best. This horse's stable (treasure hunters' fraternity) and trainers (Superstition Mountains rumors) are suspect in general, and when you throw in a shady jockey (Tumlinson and the stones' provenance), you get a real long shot. Yeah, $2 to show and hope for the best.

 

[Cubfan64]

Somehiker wrote

Is there some kind of "evidence" apparent,regarding the current state of "cleanliness" of the Stone Maps?

Twisted Fork had posted,

I saw them at the museum and they are too clean to be fakes.

..to which I has replied that the stones had been cleaned shortly after being found, hence the state of cleanliness should not be a factor to judge on, and this led to a series of somewhat petty disputes. I think it has been established that ye stones have indeed been cleaned.
Oroblanco

What I couldn't figure out is what Twisted Fork meant by "they are too clean to be fakes." What the heck does that mean? I could understand "they are too clean to be authentic"?, but implying they couldn't be fakes because they're too clean?

 

[EE THr]

Cubfan & Twisted---

I'm wondering the same thing.

Was that just an idle comment, or is there actually some kind of logic behind that?

 

[cactusjumper]

Maybe that's why he calls himself......twisted.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Okie,

The Museum does have a set of copies that were made a while back so they would have something to display while the real ones were on loan or in a traveling exhibit.

Springy,

A number of controversial carved artifacts have been discovered by innocent and unsuspecting amateurs all over America as development spread. Of course, the first thing an enthusiastic person will do is clean his discovery by scraping the grooves clean and scrubbing the thing as spotless as possible so that he can inspect it and maybe show it off to others. This act is, of course, a fatal move as far as academia is concerned, and gives the pointy-heads a slam-dunk reason to discredit the find as a hoax and therefore ignore the artifact's content and possible place in history. If the carvings don't fit in with the current dogma, so much the better - then, since it wasn't studied in situ by qualified professionals, they don't have to explain any discrepancies with accepted ideas. Many discredited discoveries are bona-fide, of course, but since we also have had many outragious frauds attempted, it becomes easy to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. It's too dangerous to rock the boat - the captain tends to throw troublemakers to the sharks you know.

The Peralta stones? If this were a horse race, I'd buy a 'show' ticket at best. This horse's stable (treasure hunters' fraternity) and trainers (Superstition Mountains rumors) are suspect in general, and when you throw in a shady jockey (Tumlinson and the stones' provenance), you get a real long shot. Yeah, $2 to show and hope for the best.

First: How can you call anything about Tumlinson shady? I REALLY want to see you explain that. Did you personally know the man? NOBODY has ever proven one word of what he said as untrue.

I see it all the time that people who never knew the man THINK they know whatever. I have seen him accused of making the stones for profit, and all kinds of other BS, without one whiff of evidence other than an active imagination.

As for the different versions of how he found the stones, they are all third party at best. We don't have a single document written by Travis Tumlinson himself that describes his finding them. The only two things we know existed was a manuscript written by TT that was mentioned in the Peck Letters. I don't know of one person that has seen it, and a map that was supposedly drawn by TT and given to his Uncle Robert (Bob Tumlinson) that showed right where he found them.

The ONLY thing shady about this is how you (Springy) came to the conclusion that Travis Tumlinson was less than honest? Once again, please show us your evidence.

Sorry about the rant. I don't know Tumlinson or any of his relatives, and I don't REALLY have any horses in the race as to whether they are authentic or not. I just REALLY hate it when people that come along 60 years later, who never knew the man (or knows anybody that knew the man), and make judgements on his character without one iota of direct evidence.

If you want to talk about Michael Bilbrey, I can see that. He supposedly found the (Stone) Crosses in the Supers. I don't know the man, and I can't make judgements regarding his character. I DO KNOW that he was convicted later for selling a fake cancer cure. If anybody was to use that conviction as evidence of character as to whether or not to believe his (Stone) Crosses Story, I wouldn't argue that point. The man has a record of dishonesty which can be proven by direct evidence (his conviction).

Travis T, on the other hand, has no such convictions, nor do we have anybody that knew the man say that he was anything other than honest, but Springfield says the man and his story are shady. I fail to make the connection. If you have testimony from anyone saying that TT screwed them out of money, or that he was always involved with "get rich quick" schemes, or anything that would cause a right thinking person to doubt his veracity, then I would love to see it. I also would have no problem putting a question mark next to his name and story.

Nothing personal Springy, just tripped one of my triggers.

Best-Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

Sorry about the rant,,, that's OK we are use to it from you mike ...lol keep up the good work ... yesterday at 3:04 after noon i made another discovery ... so there are still things out there that have not been found yet .. it may have been the most historical discover i have made in 7 years ..dont ask ..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola mi amigo BB: You posted --> it may have been the most historical discover i have made in 7 years ..dont ask ..
*****************
Ok, I i wll honor your request, but snifff.

Don Jose de La Mancha .

 

[gollum]

Hola mi amigo BB: You posted --> it may have been the most historical discover i have made in 7 years ..dont ask

--------------------------------------------

He sucked in his gut and saw his weewee! A major discovery!

Best-Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

Hola mi amigo BB: You posted --> it may have been the most historical discover i have made in 7 years ..dont ask

--------------------------------------------

He sucked in his gut and saw his weewee! A major discovery!

Best-Mike

i have hiked 109 miles in 30 days , ...lol

30 knoches so far , lefting and bowflex...

 

[Springfield]

.... First: How can you call anything about Tumlinson shady? I REALLY want to see you explain that. ...
Best-Mike

I'd be happy to accomodate you. My opinion (and it's an opinion only) is formed by two things:

• 1. Travis Tumlinson's geneology. I purloined the following information from another researcher who verified the following:
  Travis J. Tumlinson 1911-1961 was the son of John Jackson Tumlinson Jr. 1882-1957 Was the Son of John Jackson Tumlinson Sr. 1848-1920 (a.k.a. Peg-Leg Tumlinson) I spoke with Dr. Hargus' Grandson, Dr. Hargus being the one who cut off Peg-Leg's leg and the same one who was in Dobies book. And recieved Geneology from a Tumlinson family member. There is pretty compelling evidence that Travis Tumlinson is the Grandson of Peg-Leg Tumlinson in J. Frank Dobie's Coronado's Children. Their was no doubt or confilicting information from these sources. I did compare this information to Census records from Texas and all the recorded information on the Geneology charts I received matched with Census records without inconsistancies.
  Caveat: If I were to commit significent time to the stones legend (I don't intend to), I would personally verify this information myself through one of the geneology services (I haven't). An interested-enough researcher can presumably verify the family connection.
  
  The fact that Peg-Leg was a well-known treasure hunter and known to possess a number of 'waybills to treasures' in Texas and Mexico, as related in J. Frank Dobie's Coronado's Children, beginning on page 70, raises an alarming red flag of 'coincidence' in my mind. Along comes Travis in the '40's and voila!, he finds treasure maps. You understand Occam's Razor Mike - what is the most likely explanation of this coincidence? By the way, Dobie's part in this may be interesting too, but let's stick to Tumlinson for the time being.
  
  
  
  
• 2. The discovery. Travis, on a cross-country car trip from Oregon to Texas, just happened to stop and begin walking in the desert where he trips over a treasure map (stone) protruding from the ground. This is a second red flag for me. Sorry, but the scenario just seems, again, too coincidental. Applying Occam's Razor again, this time I come up with Travis fabricating an outlandish story to explain how he came into possession of the stones.

When I attach these two points to eachother, my questioning mind says, 'Wait a minute. Something tells me we're not getting the true skinny from Travis'. Grandson of a well-known treasure hunter who was known to have treasure maps and beneficiary of a one-in-a-billion lucky find of a treasure map sticking out of the desert. I'm not calling him a crook Mike, I'm questioning his truthfullness.

 

[gollum]

Once again,

Not one person that KNEW the man ever questioned his honesty. Sixty years later, you say that you do. Didn't know the man. Don't know anybody that knew the man. No letters evident after countless interviews of people that knew him saying he was anything but honest.

Why would he draw the map for his UNCLE (who was also his partner at the time) showing he found them where he claimed? Would he REALLY do that to a close family member? Somehow, I think the known evidence outweighs your suspicions.

BUUUUUUUUUUUT ............. like I said; I didn't know the man, so I will only go by what evidence we KNOW. He could have been the biggest lying SOB on Earth, and everything he said was total BS. I can't say with any intelligence.

Could it be that since TT was the Grandson of "Peg Leg" Tumlinson, he may have been in a unique position to see that corner of the "DON" Stone as something more than just a rock sticking out of the ground. People unassociated with treasure hunting may have been more concerned with seeing Weaver's Needle and just stepped over that rock. I look at it from my perspective. Years ago, before I had anything to do with treasure hunting, I might have been that person more concerned with scenery than what was under my feet. Since being involved with this for all these years now, I would be more like Travis and looking down as much as looking up.

I think of it as how would I feel if someone called me or something I said "shady". It very much implies dishonesty. I would be very offended. Unlike Obama's beliefs (HAHAHA) words have meaning. You may have a suspicion, but it is only that; a suspicion.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

Once again,

Not one person that KNEW the man ever questioned his honesty. Sixty years later, you say that you do. .....

.... I think of it as how would I feel if someone called me or something I said "shady". It very much implies dishonesty. I would be very offended. Unlike Obama's beliefs (HAHAHA) words have meaning. You may have a suspicion, but it is only that; a suspicion.

Best-Mike

Yes, with an impartial eye 60 years after the fact, I question his story. It's a suspicion, just as you say - nothing more, nothing less. And if it were me who advanced the same story, I would not be offended at others' doubts - I would expect it.

 

[gollum]

Come on Springy,

If you said that you did or saw something, and I called you and your story "shady" you would absolutely be offended.

There is a huge difference between questioning someone's story, and saying that person or their story is shady is offensive. Your idea could have been phrased differently like, "Based on the family history, I have doubts about the story as told." That's all I have to say on the subject.

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: I expect, and even ask others to doubt me, and I AM A SAINT. Everyone that is involved in lost mines, treasures etc should realize that this is just a normal part of it, and should be ready to stand by their data or find out why it may be faulty. this includes 'personal activity related to it'.

We can find fault in personal behavior with almost everyone involved in searching or looking for the LDM, so I wonder why Tumlison is exempt?

In following up a story or legend, every one is suspect, especially authors, whether it is the legendary fountain of Youth, Cibola, Peraltas, Jesuit mining, LDM principals, and other activies. Most are not here to defend themselves either.

As for our friend who produced the stone maps, present evidence supports his report and subsequent actions as true, HOWEVER 'logic' says other wise, so we must question. Why not?


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

.... We can find fault in personal behavior with almost everyone involved in searching or looking for the LDM, so I wonder why Tumlison is exempt?.....

He's not; he's obviously first in line.

 

[Blindbowman]

Gentlemen: I expect, and even ask others to doubt me, and I AM A SAINT. Everyone that is involved in lost mines, treasures etc should realize that this is just a normal part of it, and should be ready to stand by their data or find out why it may be faulty. this includes 'personal activity related to it'.

We can find fault in personal behavior with almost everyone involved in searching or looking for the LDM, so I wonder why Tumlison is exempt?

In following up a story or legend, every one is suspect, especially authors, whether it is the legendary fountain of Youth, Cibola, Peraltas, Jesuit mining, LDM principals, and other activies. Most are not here to defend themselves either.

As for our friend who produced the stone maps, present evidence supports his report and subsequent actions as true, HOWEVER 'logic' says other wise, so we must question. Why not?


Don Jose de La Mancha

i dont know about that real de .. i am kind of douting you

you said too....lol

 

[gollum]

Gentlemen: I expect, and even ask others to doubt me, and I AM A SAINT. Everyone that is involved in lost mines, treasures etc should realize that this is just a normal part of it, and should be ready to stand by their data or find out why it may be faulty. this includes 'personal activity related to it'.

We can find fault in personal behavior with almost everyone involved in searching or looking for the LDM, so I wonder why Tumlison is exempt?

In following up a story or legend, every one is suspect, especially authors, whether it is the legendary fountain of Youth, Cibola, Peraltas, Jesuit mining, LDM principals, and other activies. Most are not here to defend themselves either.

As for our friend who produced the stone maps, present evidence supports his report and subsequent actions as true, HOWEVER 'logic' says other wise, so we must question. Why not?


Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose,

The name is Travis Tumlinson

Now, NOBODY is exempt from examination, especially the original finder. This goes back to the thing with you and Roy on the other thread. BIG PICTURE!

The little picture is that here is the story as told by Tumlinson ... "blah, blah, blah."

The BIG PICTURE is that Tumlinson (in his lifetime) never wanted the Stone Maps to be made public. With the exception of some people he personally knew and was friends with, he NEVER wanted them to get any publicity. He NEVER asked one person for a penny to help him find the treasure. He did everything secretly and out of his own pocket.

The only REALLY trustworthy sources for Tumlinson's Story are:

>>His Wife Aileen; naturally

>>His Uncle Robert (Bob); Travis' partner for several years and who possessed the stones for a period of time. Was given a map by TT showing where he found the stones

>>Family Friend Clarence Mitchell; After the death of Travis, Aileen sold the stones to Mitchell. One can safely assume that she told him the whole story about how Travis had found the stones. If you think that Clarence O. Mitchell ever doubted the authenticity of the stone maps to his dying day, then you don't know anything about Clarence O. Mitchell!

To use someone else's words, I believe that Travis' intentions were as pure as the driven snow in this matter. Maybe Springfield can explain to us WHY he would feel the need to lie? His plan was to keep the stones a secret and use them to find a treasure. For the most part, he kept them a secret from the day he found them until the day he died (12 years 1949-1961). Their existence might have been known to some extent around Apache Junction and to a lesser extent around Hood River, Oregon (Tumlinson's home), but Travis NEVER publicized them IN ANY WAY!

The main version of how Tumlinson found the Stone Maps comes from his Uncle Robert. WHY on God's Green Earth would Travis lie to his uncle and partner about where and how he found them? Why would he draw his uncle and partner a map pinpointing the location of where he found them knowing it was a lie? Its not like he was writing an article for TREASURE! Magazine. IT WAS HIS FREAKING UNCLE! That is the part that people keep forgetting: THE STONES WERE A FREAKING SECRET! The ONLY people that knew of their existence were a few people close to the Tumlinsons and a few more that the info got leaked to. I would guess maybe 15 or so people. THAT IS FIFTEEN OR SO PEOPLE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD that knew of the existence of the Stone Maps. Where is the need to lie?

If this were about Clarence Mitchell, I would be more willing to question the story as he DID use the stones to generate income. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that Clarence Mitchell firmly believed in the authenticity of the Stone Maps to his dying day. He did something that 99% of you armchair treasure hunters would NEVER do! He believed so strongly in the stones that he gave up everything and devoted the better part of 10-15 years trying to unravel the secret of the Stone Maps. He gave up his old job. He went through every penny he possessed. He hung it all out there for those four little chunks of rock. He paid a hefty price for that devotion too. Mel Fisher did the same thing, but for him it paid off. HAHAHA

Sorry Springy and Jose, but the KNOWN evidence does not support in any way your suspicions that Tumlinson lied about anything.

........... and I'm not calling anybody an armchair treasure hunter. I know there are a lot of them that read these threads and don't post. That was meant for any of them.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

....... He did something that 99% of you armchair treasure hunters would NEVER do! He believed so strongly in the stones that he gave up everything and devoted the better part of 10-15 years trying to unravel the secret of the Stone Maps. He gave up his old job. He went through every penny he possessed. He hung it all out there .....

Sorry Springy and Jose, but the KNOWN evidence does not support in any way your suspicions that Tumlinson lied about anything.

Ha ha, only 10 or 15? I can feel his pain (believe me, I mean it), but one thing I've learned in this game is that there are no coincidences. Travis' involvement in this mystery is way too coincidental and that means to me there is something wrong with his story. I guess calling him 'shady' may have been too strong, but I still don't believe he was forthcoming for reasons already discussed. And guess what - there's no reason to expect the truth from him because no matter how well you think you know and trust someone who possesses (or thinks he possesses) genuine knowledge in this game, they will lie to you. It's a universal law of human nature and can't be avoided. I've done it myself, maybe you have too.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

The fact that Travis altered the Stone Maps, and had been working on a "large" manuscript, I assume for publishing a book, gives plenty of motive for building a false story/trail/evidence for monetary gain.

Throw into that, the fact that he was going to make a trip into the Superstitions, interrupted by his death, and that the friend who was going with him had seen the Trail Maps, but knew nothing about the Priest/Horse stone, and anyone could be forgiven for having some doubts about the whole story.

Some/many suspect that Barry Storm made a pretty good living doing exactly the same thing. I believe even Hollywood was calling. He was not alone in selling made up treasure stories.

There are just too many red flags in the story to accept anything at face value. Each and every time we try to trace down the truth of this matter, we run into a brick wall.....or folks who are no longer alive.

Having been on your side of the fence, believing, I am now convinced that the trail maps are real, but not are not authentic as presented.

Once again, I would suggest anyone interested in this story look here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/peralta/Peralta.htm

Pay particular attention to the Richard Peck Story and the files from April 1965.

Take care,

Joe