The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Blindbowman]

Paul,

You should pay attention to forked. I believe he knows a thing or two about "fakes".

Take care,

Joe

don't he know you ..Joe! ...lol

 

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[Oroblanco]

Twisted Fork wrote

I saw them at the museum and they are too clean to be fakes.

If Tumlinson is to be believed, he cleaned the stones heavily shortly after finding them. Scrubbed is the word, I think it was.

 

[gollum]

Twisted Fork wrote

I saw them at the museum and they are too clean to be fakes.

If Tumlinson is to be believed, he cleaned the stones heavily shortly after finding them. Scrubbed is the word, I think it was.

Actually,

Tumlinson started cleaning them at a gas station, until some random guy said they looked like treasure maps. He got paranoid, put them back in the car, and drove them to Charlie Miller's House where he and Miller scrubbed the stones clean.

Miller said to Al Reser that when he first saw the stones, they had little roots sticking out of the grooves.

THAT is the story we have.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Twisted Fork wrote

I saw them at the museum and they are too clean to be fakes.

If Tumlinson is to be believed, he cleaned the stones heavily shortly after finding them. Scrubbed is the word, I think it was.

Actually,

Tumlinson started cleaning them at a gas station, until some random guy said they looked like treasure maps. He got paranoid, put them back in the car, and drove them to Charlie Miller's House where he and Miller scrubbed the stones clean.

Miller said to Al Reser that when he first saw the stones, they had little roots sticking out of the grooves.

THAT is the story we have.

Best-Mike

Isn't that what I said? So the stones ought not be judged on their cleanliness, because they were cleaned right?

 

[gollum]

Absolutely

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"If Tumlinson is to be believed...."

It seems to me, that the question should be......If Marlow/Mitchell is to be believed.......From what I have seen of the man's history, I might be reluctant to buy a used car from him.

"....he cleaned the stones heavily shortly after finding them. Scrubbed is the word, I think it was."

The statement from "Superstition Treasures" was: "JACK TOOK THE MAP from the car and was washing it off at the station, so he would be better able to see the carving."

The map that is mentioned was the Priest/Horse stone, not the trail map stones. Kind of makes you wonder why there is no early picture of that stone.......just the trail maps.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

I don't have the Life Mag article handy, but think it says "scrubbed". Is that an important point? I can settle for saying the stones were "cleaned" if the term used is a major issue and have nothing to quibble.

Also, I did not say that Tumlinson's story was false, there are however several different versions of the origin of the stone maps; not sure how much credence to give any of them over the others. If I had to judge which seems probable, I would accept Tumlinson's original story as published; as unlikely as it may seem to some, it is no less likely than the stealing them from under a monk's bed in Arizpe mission or that some cowboy found them at Black Point or that an ex-headstone carving cowhand made them in his spare time etc who can say for certain?
Roy

 

[gollum]

Roy,

That quote isn't from the Life Mag Article. It was from the book Clarence Mitchell wrote under the pseudonym Jack Marlowe "Superstition Treasures" as Joe wrote.

But I agree that it doesn't matter whether he scrubbed them or cleaned them. The difference doesn't matter.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Nor does it matter that the book was written under the pseudonym of Travis Marlowe, rather than Jack.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Nor does it matter that the book was written under the pseudonym of Travis Marlowe, rather than Jack.

Take care,

Joe

OOOOPS, sorry. It was getting late. Travis T was Jack and yes, Clarence was Travis Marlowe.

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sorry Gully, you have forgotten your training-->

Yes Sir

No Sir

No excuse Sir.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

the saying is belg rat !

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
You recently declared,

"It's pretty simple, really. I don't believe they were found at all. I believe they were
created by Chuck Aylor and Ted DeGrazia, and maybe a little help from their friends."

The theory that Ted DeGrazia was the creator of the Horse/Priest Stone is certainly an
interesting one.If another Stone Map book theory was to be tested on TreasureNet and other
forums,I would think that something with a solid DeGrazia connection would stand a good
chance of success.Rather than being relegated to marketing and sales via specialty
bookstores and publications dealing with lost treasures,such a book might have a broader
appeal to other categories of history buffs and those interested in American artists as
well.

For those already familiar with DeGrazia's stature as an artist and promoter of Arizona and
it's native peoples,it would certainly cause some controversy for an author,proof in hand,
to place Ted DeGrazia,Arizona's "Irreverent Angel",at the head of a group of fellow
conspirators devoted to the creation of a myth and perpetuation of a securities fraud.
Such a revelation would undoubtedly bring greater exposure to both the volume and it's
author,as well as the author's close friends and supporters.The value of the stones
themselves,post publication of this history,could very well exceed that of any previously
known work by DeGrazia,leaving the Flagg Foundation as sole owner of these priceless works
of art.

A "pyramid scheme",with Chuck Aylor depicted by DeGrazia as a "false prophet",in the role of
a priest standing atop a pyramidal stone pulpit,with the investors of Moel finding
themselves penniless at the bottom would make a good figurative analogy when carved in
stone.Likewise the self depiction of DeGrazia as a horse,a common subject of the artist's
works,trodding a "dangerous trail" of SEC fraud and "grazing" on the life savings of those
hapless investors who lived "north of the river" would make for provocative subject
material.That neither Degrazia nor Aylor came forward during the gathering storm of the Moel
investigation would speak volumes as to their true character and intent,as well as that of
their assistants,the Tumlinsons,the LaFrance's and of course the Mitchels,in such a hoax.

By extension,the assertion that Ted DeGrazia buried eighteen of his prized paintings in the
Superstition Mountains,a claim made by a close friend and confidante of DeGrazia,Bob
Ward,could prove,and be proven by that same association to be a,"with a little help from my
friends",way of assisting Bob Ward financially through future sales of his own book,"Ripples
of Lost Echos",while at the same time buying his silence on the true origin and purpose of
the stone maps.

These are merely a few recent thoughts,based on a few of the the "what if's and why's" of a
DeGrazia connection to the Stone Maps,as proposed by a number of writers of website posts
and articles on the subject.I do not mean to disparage you or others who believe in such a link.
I merely wish to suggest the ramifications of the theory and how an aspiring author could have
a field day with some of the information on the subject.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Sounds like you are well down the road to writing that kind of a book. I can't really muster up much enthusiasm for that kind of project myself but wish you, or anyone else with the urge, the best of luck.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Actually,neither can I Joe.I think that if I ever had the urge,I would probably let someone with more literary talent do it for me.
I seem to suffer from writer's block too often.Common,I guess.But sooner or later someone is going to write such a book.It may make for a good read,with every twist and turn following in a logical pattern.In the meantime,though,we always have the concept to toss around.

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I don't have the Life Mag article handy, but think it says "scrubbed". Is that an important point? I can settle for saying the stones were "cleaned" if the term used is a major issue and have nothing to quibble."

Just for the sake of clarity, the Time Life article doesn't explain, in any detail, how the maps were found nor mention that they were ever cleaned.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Is there some kind of "evidence" apparent,regarding the current state of "cleanliness" of the Stone Maps?
I would think it reasonable to assume that the stones have been cleaned up countless times since they were first carved.Probably a few times while being drilled and engraved as well.Would it not be far easier to see what markings were on them,including the many "less well defined" details, if they had been first made as clean as possible? Since they have been acquired by the Flagg foundation, any periodic cleaning likely only requires use of a soft brush to keep them dust free.

Regards:SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

Somehiker wrote

Is there some kind of "evidence" apparent,regarding the current state of "cleanliness" of the Stone Maps?

Twisted Fork had posted,

I saw them at the museum and they are too clean to be fakes.

..to which I has replied that the stones had been cleaned shortly after being found, hence the state of cleanliness should not be a factor to judge on, and this led to a series of somewhat petty disputes. I think it has been established that ye stones have indeed been cleaned.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

I have to agree with Roy here. The mere fact that they have been on display in a museum for forty-one (41) years should say a lot about how immaculately clean they should be.

I don't know why this even needs a response, but .........

Here are some historical stone pieces in a museum that are REALLY clean as well. They are about 3300 years old (of Egypt's Pharaoh Ramses I), not just 150-250. What does that say about them?

Best-Mike

 

[somehiker]

Geez guys .Heck the stones coulda been cleaned with hot air,for all I know.

The original questions about how and when they were first cleaned is rooted in the anecdotal account of Tumlinson's actions just after leaving the discovery site with the stones.According to at least one TT account,his car was low on water when he found the first stone.After fetching some water from Queen Creek for the car,and discovering the stone in the process,he next stopped at a gas station where he used a hose,likely first to top up his radiator,then to wash the dirt from the stone.

Some proponents of the "fake/fraud" theory have seized on the variances within the several accounts of the discovery,as recounted over a period of some years,as "evidence" that Tumlinson was telling tall tales about his discovery in 1949.

Hey,doesn't that pharaoh look just like Barry Storm?

Regards:SH.