The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Old]

If you want to put some meat on the bones of this story......first figure out who persisted the name was WALZER and why. Then much of this saga will fall in line.

 

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[gollum]

I believe that person was Hermann Petrasch

Mike

 

[markmar]

If you want to put some meat on the bones of this story......first figure out who persisted the name was WALZER and why. Then much of this saga will fall in line.

Old

You can describe this saga , if you are not forced to stay silent .

 

[Old]

Mike, you are right. Hermann did. But there was someone more involved with art and books, writing and such, that had a propensity for taking pen names. This person relied heavily on what Hermann said. Said person was quite outspoken about what he believed and didn't hold back saying it. Was quite adamant HE was the owner of the tin type. His story didn't involve Bud Dunn.

Don't know that Matthew and I are on the same track, could be This person could well be the source of many things Dutchman including the Das Luca map. The type set on the Das Luca map border certainly matches known examples of this persons typed material.

Its interesting......<g>

 

[Old]

Marius,

This doesn't involve any secret squirrel stuff. Its Matthew's post and I won't spoil it. I'm having as much fun figuring it out as the rest of you. Matthew will tell us when he's ready.

 

[azdave35]

Mike, you are right. Hermann did. But there was someone more involved with art and books, writing and such, that had a propensity for taking pen names. This person relied heavily on what Hermann said. Said person was quite outspoken about what he believed and didn't hold back saying it. Was quite adamant HE was the owner of the tin type. His story didn't involve Bud Dunn.

Don't know that Matthew and I are on the same track, could be This person could well be the source of many things Dutchman including the Das Luca map. The type set on the Das Luca map border certainly matches known examples of this persons typed material.

Its interesting......<g>

bud dunn is the scum that betrayed his partner ted cox,,,,he also betrayed another dutch hunter many years ago

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The Das Luca, (Jean Paul Gagne) story is a fascinating one if you follow it back to its earliest beginnings with all the twists and turns it takes along the way.

On page 4-B, of the Apache Sentinel Wednesday, January 23, 1980, is a short description that tells about numerous items said to have been found at the bottom of a 25-foot mine shaft in the Goldfield Mountains in 1971.

The items belonging to Das Luca, a Frenchman, were eyeglasses, an old Bible, candlesticks, gold bars and a tintype photograph.

On the back side of the tintype, according to Das Luca, was carved, “Jacob Walzer, Wuritemberg.”

The tintype photograph can be seen on page 129 in T. E. Glover’s book, The Golden Dream, Part 1. TE Glover's email address is lucca@t*******.net

There is also a manuscript written by Das Luca entitled, “Ghosts of Superstition Mountains.”

How many of you have read that Apache Sentinel Article and or the Das Luca Manuscript ?

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

The Das Luca, (Jean Paul Gagne) story is a fascinating one if you follow it back to its earliest beginnings with all the twists and turns it takes along the way.

On page 4-B, of the Apache Sentinel Wednesday, January 23, 1980, is a short description that tells about numerous items said to have been found at the bottom of a 25-foot mine shaft in the Goldfield Mountains in 1971.

The items belonging to Das Luca, a Frenchman, were eyeglasses, an old Bible, candlesticks, gold bars and a tintype photograph.

On the back side of the tintype, according to Das Luca, was carved, “Jacob Walzer, Wuritemberg.”

The tintype photograph can be seen on page 129 in T. E. Glover’s book, The Golden Dream, Part 1. TE Glover's email address is lucca@t*******.com

There is also a manuscript written by Das Luca entitled, “Ghosts of Superstition Mountains.”

How many of you have read that Apache Sentinel Article and or the Das Luca Manuscript ?

Matthew

I've never read either....would you happen to have a copy of either one?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

azdave35,

The Das Luca Manuscript is in private hands and even though I do not believe it is copyrighted I would not post it without permission.

The Apache Sentinel Newspaper was the best paper published in Apache Junction. For almost 25 years, from 1959 - 1983 the Sentinel was a goldmine of articles and information on the Superstitions and Dutch Hunters.

I will try and get the Das Luca article which I have back in Phoenix and see if I can't get someone to post it for me. If anyone here should have that article please go ahead and post it.

Best,

Matthew

 

[sailaway]

is this the Frenchman's grave?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The typed notations to the Das Luca (Jean Paul Gagne) Jesuit Treasure map.
Notations and map from the Tom Kollenborn collection.

 

[sgtfda]

I know who Das Luca was. What he was and were from but I'm not going to ruin it by posting

 

[Cubfan64]

I remember bits and pieces of discussions about "Das Luca" and the tintype from years gone by, but I don't know many specifics. I remember the general consensus was that Gagne was definitely a con-man and had some black opal scheme he tried to get Greg Davis involved in many years ago when his father (Frank) was corresponding with him.

If it's true that Bud Dunn (one of Ted Cox's partners) was the person who actually found the items including the tin-type and that they were NOT found in the Goldfield area, then Gagne had to have some sort of association with Cox/Dunn for him to have obtained the items. I also recall that the Feldman's being closely associated with Ted Cox's stories knew some other information about Das Luca/Gagne but I don't remember specifically what that was.

I also remember that Monte Edwards somehow got involved with Das Luca at some point and something about Gagne claiming he obtained the "Jesuit Map" from a Jesuit cousin or nephew or something?

Without doing a bunch of digging into my files I don't recall much else, but maybe what I posted will jog some other memories.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Das Luca Article in the Apache Sentinel Jan. 23, 1980 pg 4


Das Luca Article Apache Sentinel Jan. 23, 1980 pg. 18

 

[sailaway]

I am curious if anyone has documented the story Das Luca told of the cache where the Ivory and wire gold bible was found? Where is this bible at? The founder of LDS told of reading a Gold plated book when in Queen Creek. Das Lucas said the cache was west north west of the little sombrero in this story, yet map shows it to be east of formation. I have walked all over the area claimed and have only found one place as described in this story. Thing is what I found is partially filled back in to about 10 feet deep. Why would they fill it back in? is there another hole that leads to the large room? I have pictures on my phone of the hole. This area is easy to get to and should be investigated and documented as the area is easy to get to.

 

[sailaway]

Das Luca and the Chiquita Cache

I am curious if anyone has documented the story Das Luca told of the cache where the Ivory and gold bible was found? Where is this bible at? Does anyone have a picture of it?The founder of LDS told of reading a Golden Book when in Queen Creek. Das Luca said the cache was west north west of the little sombrero in this story, yet map shows it to be east of formation. I have walked all over the area described by Das Luca and have only found one place as described in this story. Thing is what I found is partially filled back in to about 10 feet deep. Why would they fill it back in? is there another hole that leads to the large room? I have pictures on my phone of the hole. This area is easy to get to and should be investigated and documented as the area is easy to get to.

This 8 "Crystal was dug west of the little sombrero in the east west vein of the Goldfields. I personally dug it up then reburied the vein. Members of the local rock club have viewed this sample. The vein runs close to or even through the pit located just west of where this was dug up. The vein has many different minerals in it including cinnabar and cinnabarite. Those that have read the Geologic reports of the Mammoth will know this is what they found the gold in.

 

[Cubfan64]

I am curious if anyone has documented the story Das Luca told of the cache where the Ivory and gold bible was found? Where is this bible at? Does anyone have a picture of it?The founder of LDS told of reading a Golden Book when in Queen Creek. Das Luca said the cache was west north west of the little sombrero in this story, yet map shows it to be east of formation. I have walked all over the area described by Das Luca and have only found one place as described in this story. Thing is what I found is partially filled back in to about 10 feet deep. Why would they fill it back in? is there another hole that leads to the large room? I have pictures on my phone of the hole. This area is easy to get to and should be investigated and documented as the area is easy to get to.

This 8 "Crystal was dug west of the little sombrero in the east west vein of the Goldfields. I personally dug it up then reburied the vein. Members of the local rock club have viewed this sample. The vein runs close to or even through the pit located just west of where this was dug up. The vein has many different minerals in it including cinnabar and cinnabarite. Those that have read the Geologic reports of the Mammoth will know this is what they found the gold in.

Sailaway - if you've been following the story closely you would notice that Das Luca never "discovered" anything. Bud Dunn is the person who found the items in question and they were found nowhere near where Das Luca's story states.

Last I read a few years ago the bible was in the hands of someone in California who was not interested in selling or displaying it.

 

[gollum]

Okay everybody, take a close look at the Das Lucca TINTYPE Photograph of a young Jacob Waltz.


The person in the picture could not possibly be any older than 20-25 (I personally believe he looks younger than 20). Since Waltz was born in 1810, that means the photo would have to have been taken in the 1830-1835 time frame. Here is your problem:

Tintype Photographs were not invented until the 1850s. They didn't become popular until the mid-1860s. Even if Waltz had his picture taken the first year of the Tintype (about 1851), he would have been about 41 when the picture was taken. The person in that picture is FAAAAAARRRR younger than 41.

I can't take all the credit for finding this, as sometime ago Wayne(Zentull) mentioned that Randy Wright had disproved the Tintype. That caused me to look into it a bit deeper. Seeing all the applicable dates of Tintype Photography......weeeeelllll you know.

Mike

 

[markmar]

Could be also this picture a reproduction/transfer from a previous photo type to the tin type ?
Something like a conversion ?
The picture looks like has little colour in it .

 

[Cubfan64]

Okay everybody, take a close look at the Das Lucca TINTYPE Photograph of a young Jacob Waltz.

View attachment 1488517
The person in the picture could not possibly be any older than 20-25 (I personally believe he looks younger than 20). Since Waltz was born in 1810, that means the photo would have to have been taken in the 1830-1835 time frame. Here is your problem:

Tintype Photographs were not invented until the 1850s. They didn't become popular until the mid-1860s. Even if Waltz had his picture taken the first year of the Tintype (about 1851), he would have been about 41 when the picture was taken. The person in that picture is FAAAAAARRRR younger than 41.

I can't take all the credit for finding this, as sometime ago Wayne(Zentull) mentioned that Randy Wright had disproved the Tintype. That caused me to look into it a bit deeper. Seeing all the applicable dates of Tintype Photography......weeeeelllll you know.

Mike

Mike - see post #2295. Wayne Tuttle first questioned the age of the person along with when Tintype photo's were invented and came to the conclusion that it could not be "our" Jacob Waltz. Jesse Feldman and I had the same conversation sometime later (2007'ish?) on Peter's now defunct LDM forum and came to the same conclusion.