The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Cubfan64]

If you want to put some meat on the bones of this story......first figure out who persisted the name was WALZER and why. Then much of this saga will fall in line.

Old - the person I can think of who connects with your comments would be John Lindley Higham (pen name of Charles Frederick Higham). Can you or Matthew expand on whether there is a connection between him and Bud Dunn or "Das Luca," and if so, what that connection was?

 

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[sailaway]

cubfan: Das Luca never "discovered" anything. Bud Dunn is the person who found the items in question and they were found nowhere near where Das Luca's story states.

I have read conjecture that there are doubters amoung the participants of the origin of the items in question. Is there any legal statement or law suit over the disputed articles and who the rightful owners are? Simply stating one never found anything does not make it true. Along with someone stating they found a item and its location is different than a published account does not make it true. Just like claiming a photo is a Tintype over a Daguerreotype without analysis by a chemist does not make it a tintype from 20 years later.
https://www.theguardian.com/science...ul-looks-has-been-discovered-scientists-claim
Here is a photo of Joseph Smith who was 5 years older than Waltz.

David Smith his son.

Notice the simularity of the Das Luca photo?
This is Rogers Canyon Spring, it is not the one at the trail head, by pinto trail.

 

[Cubfan64]

I have read conjecture that there are doubters amoung the participants of the origin of the items in question. Is there any legal statement or law suit over the disputed articles and who the rightful owners are? Simply stating one never found anything does not make it true. Along with someone stating they found a item and its location is different than a published account does not make it true. Just like claiming a photo is a Tintype over a Daguerreotype without analysis by a chemist does not make it a tintype from 20 years later. Here is a photo of Joseph Smith.
View attachment 1488573View attachment 1488575
David Smith his son.
View attachment 1488571
Notice the simularity of the Das Luca photo?
This is Rogers Spring, it is not the one at the trail head, by pinto trail.
View attachment 1488596

Hey, if you want to believe that photo is a daguerreotype rather than a tintype go for it. You asked me if I had ever seen it and I told you I had not only seen it but held it. It is neither "plate like" nor fragile like a daguerreotype is. Neither could one be able to punch words into any daguerreotype I've ever seen like was done with this one.

I know enough about the story to strongly suspect "Das Luca" was a con man through and through so I certainly have reason for doubting his claims of finding all the items he says he did in the newspaper article.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with the lawsuits, disputed articles and rightful owners discussion. If you're implying that since "Das Luca's" story showed up in a newspaper, it must be the true story I'd have to disagree with you. I also don't understand what the "Smith" photos proves?

I'm hoping Matthew and Greg add more to the conversation because there is definitely more to the story than it appears you are aware of, but if it all fits into a theory you have about where something is, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[sailaway]

I am fishing for all the facts to come out on both sides not just one point of view.
#1, We know where the photo is and it should be dated by a reputable firm who could show that chemical/Metallurgical anylisis puts photo production date range/produced by Europe? U.S. or whom....
I have a daguerreotype photo of a early salesman selling photos from a rack, were the people just buying photos of someone else at a discounted rate because original person did not pay?
Do I believe the photo to be a daguerreotype? I have never been close to it, yet that is the only way the photo could be whom it is purported to be of.
Smith was 5 years older than Waltz yet Smith was 47 before the photos were available where he was.
#2, The Das Luca Tale is an old story and why was it not researched more thoroughly back in the 70's?
Being as it was published in the paper if there was controversy over any facts told in the story, it should have been brought to court then.
#3, I suspect there are many frauds in the Superstitions stories
#4, No I am not saying the Das Luca story is true, in fact my photo evidence may just prove he was a total fraud.
Here is the filled in Pit

 

[azdave35]

"why was it not researched more thoroughly back in the 70's?"

did you ever try to research anything back in the 70's?....there weren't much resources available back in the 70's

 

[JohnWhite]

I wonder if anyone has found any micron platinum in Arizona I wonder if there is such a thing as micron platinum

 

[Cubfan64]

I am fishing for all the facts to come out on both sides not just one point of view.
#1, We know where the photo is and it should be dated by a reputable firm who could show that chemical/Metallurgical anylisis puts photo production date range/produced by Europe? U.S. or whom....
I have a daguerreotype photo of a early salesman selling photos from a rack, were the people just buying photos of someone else at a discounted rate because original person did not pay?
Do I believe the photo to be a daguerreotype? I have never been close to it, yet that is the only way the photo could be whom it is purported to be of.
Smith was 5 years older than Waltz yet Smith was 47 before the photos were available where he was.
#2, The Das Luca Tale is an old story and why was it not researched more thoroughly back in the 70's?
Being as it was published in the paper if there was controversy over any facts told in the story, it should have been brought to court then.
#3, I suspect there are many frauds in the Superstitions stories
#4, No I am not saying the Das Luca story is true, in fact my photo evidence may just prove he was a total fraud.
Here is the filled in Pit
View attachment 1488616

I apologize for misunderstanding some of your posts then Sailaway. I took away the impression that you believed the Das Luca story as published in the newspaper - too much is lost in internet posts that could easily be corrected when talking in person - this is a tough media for discussing things sometime.

I'm still not quite clear what you're implying with the Joseph Smith photo. From an internet search on that photo, it looks like it is a daguerreotype which fits with his age and the type of photo.
Brunson20 - Your Site For LDS Theology: The Joseph Smith Photograph

 

[sailaway]

Just so everyone reading knows, none of my work was based on Das Luca's work. In fact I had no knowledge at all about Das Luca when I was searching the Goldfield area. I was asked to investigate the visible tailing pile was the only reason why I started looking in that area. I have no objective to prove either direction about Das Luca and the tale he spun or the artifacts that he produced. Here is a request for those that think they know the real Das Luca, the tale he told the paper stated he found gold bars, there should be records of a transaction, or if it was a secret private sale then it would be hard to not show those off. Search for records to document the gold and the seller.

John, I have seen what was claimed to be recovered micro platinum mined by Chuck on his claim over Government Well. Is it the real deal? I would have to see a Assay report to say either way.

There are stories on the net that Joseph Smith and Jacob Waltz knew each other.

 

[azdave35]

Just so everyone reading knows, none of my work was based on Das Luca's work. In fact I had no knowledge at all about Das Luca when I was searching the Goldfield area. I was asked to investigate the visible tailing pile was the only reason why I started looking in that area. I have no objective to prove either direction about Das Luca and the tale he spun or the artifacts that he produced. Here is a request for those that think they know the real Das Luca, the tale he told the paper stated he found gold bars, there should be records of a transaction, or if it was a secret private sale then it would be hard to not show those off. Search for records to document the gold and the seller.

John, I have seen what was claimed to be recovered micro platinum mined by Chuck on his claim over Government Well. Is it the real deal? I would have to see a Assay report to say either way.

are you talking about chuck crawford?

 

[sailaway]

yes Dave, Chuck Crawford
docs.azgs.az.gov/OnlineAccessMineFiles/C-F/CherylAnnPinalT1NR10ESec14.pdf

 

[azdave35]

yes Dave, Chuck Crawford
docs.azgs.az.gov/OnlineAccessMineFiles/C-F/CherylAnnPinalT1NR10ESec14.pdf

i knew old chuck and he did have claims in a few different places that had platinum and palladium but not by govt well...he did have some gold claims north of govt well..close to willow springs...he was mining small stringer veins for gold but no platinum

 

[Cubfan64]

John - if your definition of "micron platinum" is just platinum in such small sizes as 0.001mm, I would imagine it exists probably like many other elements in nature. Is it economical to recover though? If that's not what you meant by "micron platinum" forget what I said

 

[azdave35]

John - if your definition of "micron platinum" is just platinum in such small sizes as 0.001mm, I would imagine it exists probably like many other elements in nature. Is it economical to recover though? If that's not what you meant by "micron platinum" forget what I said

paul..most of the platinum and palladium that is recovered is micron....it doesn't usually come in nuggets like gold

 

[Cubfan64]

paul..most of the platinum and palladium that is recovered is micron....it doesn't usually come in nuggets like gold

Ahh thanks Dave. I assumed it was more rare than gold and probably not found much in actual "nugget" form by itself, but thought of it as more like little stringers in quartz just more rare to find. It sounds like that's a wrong guess and that most of it is too small to really see with the naked eye so is mostly just a trace element recovered in some way as a byproduct of mining for other elements/metals.

Always good to learn something!

 

[azdave35]

Ahh thanks Dave. I assumed it was more rare than gold and probably not found much in actual "nugget" form by itself, but thought of it as more like little stringers in quartz just more rare to find. It sounds like that's a wrong guess and that most of it is too small to really see with the naked eye so is mostly just a trace element recovered in some way as a byproduct of mining for other elements/metals.

Always good to learn something!

most platinum deposits i have found were disseminated in volcanic ores and could not be seen by the naked eye...only under 40x microscope and could only be recovered by leaching or smelting....floatation can also be used

 

[JohnWhite]

I wonder if I have stumbled on an old Spanish hole in the wall platinum mine I wonder if I'll ever be able to return to it I wonder if the area is the province of Quito Who knows I wonder where the West Indies are located It is where one finds it...

 

[Old]

Paul, yes. I'm leaning toward Higham. I'm unsure if that's who Matthew is referencing.

Copies of Higham's letters to Bernice McGee can be found on line at Garry's site. He was, shall we say...very opinionated. A colorful story teller.

The type set matches the Das Luca border margin but that alone doesn't mean much. Its appears to be from an IBM machine of the 60 era. Probably a selectric model. But.......there are at least a million of those...so, that's no big deal. What is more interesting is to compare the hand written words, especially the numbers, on Higham's map to the lettering on the Das Luca maps. I find that very interesting. Perhaps I'm just seeing what I want to see but I find it more than just coincidental.

Higham tells us he is the one who obtained the Jacob photo from Waltz' (Walzer) family. He says the photo was taken in 1854 in Jersey City, NJ. Like Mike and others, I too believe the subject of the photo is younger than Waltz would have been even in 1854. I could be wrong.

Is it a Daguerreo type or a Tintype? I don't know. I'm not well versed in the difference. Daguerreo was the earliest version and it too used a metal base. Silver and copper. Tin type used thin iron sheets. The Waltz photo does have worn places where a copper "color" appears to be evident. I just don't know, I'd have to see the photo and see if it has the mirror sheen of the earlier type.

Back to the subject........So, in my mind we have two ties to Das Luca items in Higham. Don't know about the Native scout angle.

 

[sailaway]

One of the things that is indicative of Daguerreotype is the white spidering that is caused by the glass of that era weeped onto the plate and caused the corrosion pits around the edges of the photo, where Tintype would simply rust. Daguerreotype coatings: The Das Luca Photo has the appearance of a silica coated film that allows the photo to be preserved outside the case as documented on page 207 of:
The Daguerreotype: Nineteenth-Century Technology and Modern Science
By M. Susan Barger, William B. White


https://books.google.com/books?id=F...q=Daguerreotype corrosion and Tintype&f=false

 

[sailaway]

Now about the person in the photo. Was it not Jacob Walzer that was the nephew of Jacob Waltz? The same Walzer that had the map the doctor found after the death down by Florance Junction? Was claimed to be Waltz's partner? Murdered after he wanted to file a legal claim?

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

I was asking a Mexican friend of mine about the peraltas and the stone maps. He said mexicans have two last names. If we new what both names were we could find docs in the archives.
Since you guys have done way more work on the family history that I.
I was wondering if anyone knew both names.

Don Miguel Peralta de Còrdoba