The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Real of Tayopa]

John, now-a-days there are roads everywhere, most built by the government, or lumber industries.however most have been taken over effectively by the Narcos.. Trails that took me four days ( search for the lost Gloria Pan mine ) Each way, are now covered in a few hours in air conditioned comfort..

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

There's been a couple of different claims made as to the origin of that tintype.
One being that Gagne found it at the bottom of a mine shaft, somewhere in the Goldfield Mtns. in 1971, along with a pair of glasses, a candle holder, old bible and some gold bars.
But J. Feldman has said the tintype was found by Bud Dunn ( or maybe Bud Lane) in 1960, somewhere out in the east end of the range. As I recall, the tintype was said to be one of the clues to the "pit mine is the LDM" story. Regardless of which story/date you believe, both dates fall well after the first publicized photos of the stone maps. These maps probably appeared within that time frame.....1960-71....but if the "ground map" (PegLeg map), turns out to be the same or very similar to any of these, there's gonna be more questions looking for answers IMO.
I see that Frank has just added a number of "das luca" maps to the topic. Jean Paul Gagne said the maps came from a French Jesuit, and are partly annotated in French......but "treasure hunters" are sometimes noted for certain artistic abilities. I wonder if Gagne was the TH'er sometimes referred to as "the Canadian" in some of the old-timer history ?

somehiker,

In a conversation with the person who has possession of the Das Lucas photograph, I was told the photo was found by Bud Dunn of Torrance, California in 1958 while working with Quentin "Ted" Cox at the Rogers spring on the southwest slope of Iron Mountain in the eastern Superstition Mountains.


Bud Dunn Torrance, CA. 1958

Allegedly, Bud Dunn found the Jacob Waltz tin type photo in an old Bible along with some other personal items while digging in a tunnel in 1958 at Rogers spring with Ted Cox and another man from California named Wally.
Some time around the year 1988 the Jacob Waltz tin type photo was first shown to the present owner but it wasn't until around the year 2000-2001 that the photograph actually changed possession.
The alleged person who had the tin type photo was not Bud Dunn, it was Jean Paul Gagne (aka Das Lucas). No explanation is known how Gagne/Das Lucas got the tin type from Dunn.

Now the 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one seems to notice is this same Jean Paul Gagne aka Das Lucas has several Jesuit Maps that indicate mines and treasure in several places in the Superstition Mountains.
No one seems to want to offers any light on HOW the Gagne/Das Lucas maps were acquired and WHO acquired them and WHEN they were acquired.

It is clear from looking at the maps that the maps themselves point to areas in the Superstitions that Travis Tumlinson and later Clarence Mitchell paid close attention to. Namely the area around Queen Creek, Hewitt Canyon, Rogers trough and spring.
And furthermore it cannot be overlooked that the Gagne/Das Lucas maps have identical pictures, symbols and signs as are found on the Peralta Stone Maps found by Travis Tumlinson at Queen Creek in 1949.



Are there any explanations for the obvious connections or is this just a funny coincidence ?

Matthew

 

[nobodie]

Mathew and Frank,
Nice maps, thank you.

 

[markmar]

Matthew

These " Jesuit " Das Lucas maps , are the most fake maps I have seen in my life .
Is clear how his " Priest " map is his own reproduction based in the stone maps . He made a 3 in 1 map . Also , I believe this map was not made to deceive but represents only his humbled interpretation of the stone maps .
Is like the Garman's " Tessora de Mapa " map .
I hope the Travis " Barn " map " and " Ground " map to be not like these Das Lucas maps .

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew

These " Jesuit " Das Lucas maps , are the most fake maps I have seen in my life .
Is clear how his " Priest " map is his own reproduction based in the stone maps . He made a 3 in 1 map . Also , I believe this map was not made to deceive but represents only his humbled interpretation of the stone maps .
Is like the Garman's " Tessora de Mapa " map .
I hope the Travis " Barn " map " and " Ground " map to be not like these Das Lucas maps .

markmar,

I am the first to admit I am terrible with treasure maps and leave their interpretations up to those who know what they are doing like yourself.

The thing that struck me about the Das Luca / Jean Paul Gagne Jesuit map(s) was the lower right hand corner. An arrow points directly to Queen Creek and that exact place where the arrow points is the place on Queen Creek where Travis Tumlinson found the "Peralta" Stone Maps. So in my mind the Peralta Stone Maps and this Jesuit Map has to be somehow related. Hewitt canyon is marked on the Jesuit Map and this was a starting point for searches by Travis Tumlinson and Clarence Mitchell.

Hewitt Canyon, Rogers canyon and Roger's trough didn't come into existence until about 1874. All three are marked on the Jesuit Map so we can accurately date the Jesuit Map(s) as being 1870's vintage or a little later.

The $100,000 dollar question is which maps came first, Stone Maps or Jesuit Maps or did they both originate at the same time?

I would guess that the Jesuit Maps were drawn after the Peralta Stone Maps but for what purpose I'm not certain. Again I am a poor authority on treasure maps of any form. I would be one of the last people to ask my opinion.


Jesuit Treasure map segment showing Queen Creek with the arrow (in RED) pointing to the place where the Peralta Stone Maps were discovered. Hewitt Canyon and the Rogers area also marked on the Jesuit Map.

Matthew

 

[sgtfda]

Not to answer for somehiker, or start throwing cold water on all this but...

As far as the "Jesuit" maps displayed within the last few posts, I would be highly suspicious as to their authenticity. I have seen (very rarely) real Jesuit treasure maps, and they are very creative works of art. They don't look anything like what has been posted. For one thing, slapping the Jesuit icon on all the maps just wasn't their MO, especially concerning areas they were not supposed to be in. Such things would have served as trial evidence. Also the years listed on some of those maps just don't work as far as Jesuit history is concerned. When the Jesuits were resurrected in 1814, they had ceased all covert activity and completely reinvented themselves as servants of Christ, instead of soldiers.

With all due respect to Frank, and I know he is a person of high integrity, but as far as the "Walzer cache" on one of the maps posted- the Jesuits were long gone before Waltz ever came onto the scene, over a hundred years later, so I am not so sure.

I was posting examples of other maps in that series

 

[sgtfda]

Matthew my thought is the Hewitt and Rodgers area was added to the map later. Though it is possible it was also removed on a later version of that map.

 

[markmar]

markmar,

I am the first to admit I am terrible with treasure maps and leave their interpretations up to those who know what they are doing like yourself.

The thing that struck me about the Das Luca / Jean Paul Gagne Jesuit map(s) was the lower right hand corner. An arrow points directly to Queen Creek and that exact place where the arrow points is the place on Queen Creek where Travis Tumlinson found the "Peralta" Stone Maps. So in my mind the Peralta Stone Maps and this Jesuit Map has to be somehow related. Hewitt canyon is marked on the Jesuit Map and this was a starting point for searches by Travis Tumlinson and Clarence Mitchell.

Hewitt Canyon, Rogers canyon and Roger's trough didn't come into existence until about 1874. All three are marked on the Jesuit Map so we can accurately date the Jesuit Map(s) as being 1870's vintage or a little later.

The $100,000 dollar question is which maps came first, Stone Maps or Jesuit Maps or did they both originate at the same time?

I would guess that the Jesuit Maps were drawn after the Peralta Stone Maps but for what purpose I'm not certain. Again I am a poor authority on treasure maps of any form. I would be one of the last people to ask my opinion.

View attachment 1486954
Jesuit Treasure map segment showing Queen Creek with the arrow (in RED) pointing to the place where the Peralta Stone Maps were discovered. Hewitt Canyon and the Rogers area also marked on the Jesuit Map.

Matthew

Matthew

I believe Das Luca " priest " map like other maps of same content ,came after the stone maps were discovered . I don't know from what sources Das Luca knew about the region where Travis and Clarence were searching in regards to decrypt the stone maps , but i believe he used in the map his imagination and third part info to create this modern art .
The clue that make the map fake , is the " canon fresco " which is depicted in a wrong region and is a Mexican name ( used by Gonzalez in his map ) for a known canyon in the west side of Superstitions .

 

[JohnWhite]

I am not much for maps myself. I believe that we all try to force maps to correspond with areas that we are familiar with. I believe such is the case with the ldm. I too believe that people have been doing so with the Peralta stones and other maps for years. Possibly with the blind ambition that they might actually be on the right track to finding the lost mine depicted on said stones or paper maps in existence. I never in a thousand years would have thought that I would have come across such a find, but due to blind luck and a little imagination, I have. I do doubt that if I were given another thousand years I just might be able to return to said location. Of one thing I am certain. I am no Jacob Waltz. As I have stated, maybe in twenty years or so, If I am still breathing; I just might reveal what I know about the Peralta stone maps. I have stated that I believe that they lead to a long lost platinum mine and I will continue to make such a claim until someone finds the ldm and proves me wrong. Who knows. If I ever am able to return to my little playground, I just may pop into Quartzsite and give some ore to some lucky Tom Dick or Joe who I may happen upon. I have been known to frequent Quartzsite at times just to have a giggle or two. Who knows. The sarge or one of you die hard ldm seekers just might be the one who proves me wrong. Someone just might find the glorious Dutchman ledge before I am able to find my lost platinum hole in the wall. I have told many varying stories over the years. I have stated it to be on the side of a road. Or up on the side of a mountain. Or in a bat cave filled with guano. I really do find it hard to remember the specifics due to my dementia
Old age really does stink when you can't seem to recall certain details anymore. I have been weaving webs for many years and I'll continue to do so until who knows when. I have made some outrageous claims over the years. Heck! I have even claimed to have given away a paragon diamond in Reno, NV once when I was prospecting for some silver and gold. It was the most memorable leak of my life, don't drink and prospect. You just might make some of the same mistakes I have. Is this coming straight from the horses mouth or the horse's rear? I'll leave that up to the reader to decide. Everybody knows that there are no diamonds in Nevada, just a bunch of quartz, my friends that I was with at the time made me feel like a fool claiming that I thought I had found a diamond. hehehe...I swear!!! We live and learn I always say. What might my life be like if I had kept my Tia Juana? Who knows? I guess that it was just not meant to be. I am sure that many of you on this site have found what they believe to be a diamond in their travels. I guess that my little Tia Juana was just a piece of quartz. Because to this day I still have not heard a peep about anyone finding a paragon diamond in Reno or any other city in Nevada for that matter. lol . Funny thing though. There is now a thing called "The Kimberly Process". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberley_Process_Certification_Scheme and I know that it has nothing at all to do with my little Tia Juana. Maybe one day I may make it back to Reno just to take another leak. I guess that we will jest have to wait and see. As if I have actually found platinum and diamond. ha ha ha It may all be part of my metal delusions of grandeur. And the people at mental health wonder why I am always so darn paranoid. I can't even convince my loved ones that I have found anything other that plain old dirt, even after showing them my Juan Blanco in my pan. Go figure. It really doesn't matter to me though. Shoot... It seems that I can't even convince any of you that the Peralta stones really do lead to a lost platinum mining area of Quito, I don't think my platina if from Choco. But who can say that my chocolate donuts are from any other place? "A horse is a horse of course of course...And no one can talk to a horse of course"

 

[sgtfda]

Apparently Das Luca claimed he received maps from a old Canadian Jesuit priest. That is the story I was told. I have no faith in them. The priest on the one map indicates the map was made after Travis carved the priest horse stone. I have a large collection of Superstition maps and only 4 lead to something. All old mines or placer gold deposits. There is no doubt in my mind the map stones were made using the Peg Leg map for reference by Travis. The Peg Leg map led me to some old silver mines and placer in the Hewitt area. Woody and I uncovered a old silver mine that was hidden at the end of the stone map trail. Believe what you like about the stones trail maps. As far as I know I'm the only one that can show gold and old silver mines after using them. That's good enough for me.

 

[sailaway]

in the last few map post the map changes

By December 1840 Goddard had succeeded well enough to produce tiny portraits ranging in size from 0.4 inch (1 cm) in diameter to 1.5 by 2.5 inches (4 by 6 cm). By the time Beard opened his studio, exposure times were said to vary between one and three minutes according to weather and time of day. His daguerreotype portraits became immensely popular, and the studio made considerable profits the first few years, but competition soon appeared, and Beard lost his fortune in several lawsuits against infringers of his licenses.
The finest daguerreotypes in Britain were produced by Claudet, who opened a studio on the roof of the Royal Adelaide Gallery in June 1841. He was responsible for numerous improvements in photography, including the discovery that red light did not affect sensitive plates and could therefore be used safely in the darkroom. The improvements that had been made in lenses and sensitizing techniques reduced exposure times to approximately 20 to 40 seconds.
Daguerreotyping became a flourishing industry. Practitioners such as Hermann Biow and Carl Ferdinand Stelzner worked in Germany, and William Horn opened a studio in Bohemia in 1841. It was the United States, however, that led the world in the production of daguerreotypes.

https://www.britannica.com/technology/photography
Waltz came to America when? Notice they had studios in Germany almost 2 years before we did and would have put him around 30 when portraits became popular.

 

[nobodie]

If any of those maps including the stone trail maps are real, they are pre-expultion. They look like trails to around their mining areas. I don't see any indication of were they buried caches or treasures. Possibly they did not have time to put it down on the maps, not knowing the exact spot yet and not returning. Maybe why the Jesuits don't know anything about the treasures. Just my humble no nothing opinion.

 

[Cubfan64]

in the last few map post the map changes
View attachment 1486992


https://www.britannica.com/technology/photography
Waltz came to America when? Notice they had studios in Germany almost 2 years before we did and would have put him around 30 when portraits became popular.

The information you posted is about daguerreotype's, not tintypes - very different and the "photo" of the supposed young Waltz is a tintype which came into existence in the mid 1850's meaning Waltz would have been in his 40's at the time of the Das Luca "photo." The man in the photo does not appear to be in his 40's to me but I could be wrong

 

[somehiker]

somehiker,

In a conversation with the person who has possession of the Das Lucas photograph, I was told the photo was found by Bud Dunn of Torrance, California in 1958 while working with Quentin "Ted" Cox at the Rogers spring on the southwest slope of Iron Mountain in the eastern Superstition Mountains.


Bud Dunn Torrance, CA. 1958

Allegedly, Bud Dunn found the Jacob Waltz tin type photo in an old Bible along with some other personal items while digging in a tunnel in 1958 at Rogers spring with Ted Cox and another man from California named Wally.
Some time around the year 1988 the Jacob Waltz tin type photo was first shown to the present owner but it wasn't until around the year 2000-2001 that the photograph actually changed possession.
The alleged person who had the tin type photo was not Bud Dunn, it was Jean Paul Gagne (aka Das Lucas). No explanation is known how Gagne/Das Lucas got the tin type from Dunn.

Now the 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one seems to notice is this same Jean Paul Gagne aka Das Lucas has several Jesuit Maps that indicate mines and treasure in several places in the Superstition Mountains.
No one seems to want to offers any light on HOW the Gagne/Das Lucas maps were acquired and WHO acquired them and WHEN they were acquired.

It is clear from looking at the maps that the maps themselves point to areas in the Superstitions that Travis Tumlinson and later Clarence Mitchell paid close attention to. Namely the area around Queen Creek, Hewitt Canyon, Rogers trough and spring.
And furthermore it cannot be overlooked that the Gagne/Das Lucas maps have identical pictures, symbols and signs as are found on the Peralta Stone Maps found by Travis Tumlinson at Queen Creek in 1949.



Are there any explanations for the obvious connections or is this just a funny coincidence ?

Matthew

I am in agreement with deducer on this, for most of the same reasons, and also believe these maps to be modern creations of someone well outside of the Jesuit Order, and perhaps even made by J.P. Gagne himself.
For all we know, J.P.G could be a second alias, in addition to the "das luca" used by the same perp in order to lend some credibility to the claim that the map(s) originated with a "French" Jesuit. Feldman probably knows, but won't be saying IMO.....or perhaps Thomas Glover, who might know more about all of the circumstances as well. The notes I have on this, which are somewhat brief anyway, indicate that the "French Jesuit" was from Mexico City, not Canada.

more later....

Regards:SH.

 

[coazon de oro]

markmar,

I am the first to admit I am terrible with treasure maps and leave their interpretations up to those who know what they are doing like yourself.

The thing that struck me about the Das Luca / Jean Paul Gagne Jesuit map(s) was the lower right hand corner. An arrow points directly to Queen Creek and that exact place where the arrow points is the place on Queen Creek where Travis Tumlinson found the "Peralta" Stone Maps. So in my mind the Peralta Stone Maps and this Jesuit Map has to be somehow related. Hewitt canyon is marked on the Jesuit Map and this was a starting point for searches by Travis Tumlinson and Clarence Mitchell.

Hewitt Canyon, Rogers canyon and Roger's trough didn't come into existence until about 1874. All three are marked on the Jesuit Map so we can accurately date the Jesuit Map(s) as being 1870's vintage or a little later.

The $100,000 dollar question is which maps came first, Stone Maps or Jesuit Maps or did they both originate at the same time?

I would guess that the Jesuit Maps were drawn after the Peralta Stone Maps but for what purpose I'm not certain. Again I am a poor authority on treasure maps of any form. I would be one of the last people to ask my opinion.

View attachment 1486954
Jesuit Treasure map segment showing Queen Creek with the arrow (in RED) pointing to the place where the Peralta Stone Maps were discovered. Hewitt Canyon and the Rogers area also marked on the Jesuit Map.

Matthew

Howdy Matthew,

I am in agreement with markmar, the only relation these "Jesuit" maps have with the PSM's is that they are someones interpretation of where the PSM's lead. Assuming they were Jesuit, they added the Jesuit symbol, and used the other symbols found on the stone maps to form their own version, not knowing what those symbols stand for. Such maps would lead others to believe they are blueprints to the PSM's.
You and others have already pointed out the places that did not yet have a name in the Jesuit era. One other thing is the lack of wear and tear that the Peralta/Fish map has which would not be as old as those maps is they were real.

You seem to believe that the PSM's were found by the Camino Viejo bridge? This is not so, and eliminates Travis as the maker. I looked for Somehikers g.e. image of where the PSM's were found but can't find it. Many knew that Travis believed the PSM's led to Hewitt Canyon, but just because he stumbled on them didn't mean he understood them.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

I am in agreement with deducer on this, for most of the same reasons, and also believe these maps to be modern creations of someone well outside of the Jesuit Order, and perhaps even made by J.P. Gagne himself.
For all we know, J.P.G could be a second alias, in addition to the "das luca" used by the same perp in order to lend some credibility to the claim that the map(s) originated with a "French" Jesuit. Feldman probably knows, but won't be saying IMO.....or perhaps Thomas Glover, who might know more about all of the circumstances as well. The notes I have on this, which are somewhat brief anyway, indicate that the "French Jesuit" was from Mexico City, not Canada.

more later....

Regards:SH.

Howdy Wayne,

One other thing about those "Jesuit" maps being fake, is that one of them which Sarge posted has three languages on it. A French Jesuit would be a Pere Jesuite, while a Spanish or Mexican Jesuit would be a Padre Jesuita. Unless it was Father Guido Sarducci?

Homar

 

[sgtfda]

Wayne
Canadian's are always blaming the French.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne
Canadian's are always blaming the French.

Well......

 

[sailaway]

Cubfan64, do you know for a fact that the Das Lucas photo was a Tintype or are you taking others word for that is what it is?

The paper maps have a date of 1892 on them.

 

[sailaway]

For those who want a view from the Chiquita (little) Sombrero on the paper maps.