The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Hal Croves]

I wanted to point out one small quote that was written about 1944/45/46. Just before the stones were reportedly discovered. Honestly, I am still not sure of the exact year but many point to 1948ish. Either way, think about the Priest Stone for a moment.

Second inscribed line. YO BOY 18 LUGARES. I have read several translation, but only the number is important here. That being the number 18.

Would you agree that the number 18, 18 mines, 18 caches, 18 places, became relevant to treasure hunters because of and AFTER the discovery of the stones?
YO BOY 18 LUGARES. In my mind I have no other reference for the number 18 as it pertains to the Superstitions other than the Priest Stone. [& trail]

So, if the number 18, which coincidentally represents "deceit" became important with the discovery of the stones, than logically there should be no earlier mention of the number 18.
Earlier than 1948, unless I have missed a story connected to the Peralta Land Grant which mentions 18 mines? anyone?

But there is an earlier mention of 18. Higham mentions it in his 1946 first edition. (BTW... THANK YOU again for that!)

"Weather they had eight mines or eighteen mines is not established."

Higham knew about the number 18 before the Priest stone was discovered. How is that possible without and even earlier reference to 18 mines in the Superstitions? Is there one?
If not, that closes the book on the stones.... as far as being old anyway.



It seems that someone made the stones in the mid 1940's.

 

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[roadrunner]

Like sgtfda said, you are and would have made a great detective.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Hal, I need more coffee, how about you, refill? A curious point is that Frank Dobie had pubished his book 'Apache gold & Yaqui silver' in the late 1930's in which was the first publicized version of the Lost Jesuit mine 'Tayopa' with it's '18' surrounding mines. and a map.

Tayopa has been rediscovered with many of it's surrounding mines. Is it a coincidence that the two factors were the basis for the stones? The location of Tayopa was effectively unknown at that period, so did the author of the stones use the new Tayopa story/map publicized in Dobies' book as the basis using known Lost Dutchman points as part of the Tayopa /LDM story and stones? Naturally the author himself could be partially convinced of his theory and could easily have joined the active hunters of the Tayopa/Ldm M

Since Tayopa had not been discovered since the 1630's he would have been on safe grounds, even logically if t came to that. Fascinating thought Hal, more

ORO .

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Hal Croves]

G'd morning Hal, I need more coffee, how about you, refill? A curious point is that Frank Dobie had pubished his book 'Apache gold & Yaqui silver' in the late 1930's in which was the first publicized version of the Lost Jesuit mine 'Tayopa' with it's '18' surrounding mines. and a map.

Tayopa has been rediscovered with many of it's surrounding mines. Is it a coincidence that the two factors were the basis for the stones? The location of Tayopa was effectively unknown at that period, so did the author of the stones use the new Tayopa story/map publicized in Dobies' book as the basis using known Lost Dutchman points as part of the Tayopa /LDM story and stones? Naturally the author himself could be partially convinced of his theory and could easily have joined the active hunters of the Tayopa/Ldm M

Since Tayopa had not been discovered since the 1630's he would have been on safe grounds, even logically if t came to that. Fascinating thought Hal, more

ORO .

Don Jose de La Mancha

I am not sure that I completely understand your post.
But, I seem to be stuck on it.

 

[Hal Croves]

roadrunner,
As much as I appreciate the complement and comparison, I honestly do not see it that way.
OK, I can re-discover obscure, insignificant facts and point out obvious patterns of human behavior, but a detective works to establish motive, something I have consistently failed at.

However, I would have made one hell of a blood hound..but only IF I were permitted to keep my

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

{snip}

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning again Hal. You posted ->I am not sure that I completely understand your post.
But, I seem to be stuck on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I too am a bit lost on your answer However you used the no. 18 as a prominent point in your calculation, why ? The nearest basis for the 18 lugares on the stone is from Dobies' story on Tayopa which came out just shortly before the stones were supposedly made by your calculation. Is it just a coincidence??

Frankly it is just a passing thought on my part,since one never knows where the lost key may be found.
'
In other words was there 'ever' a Lost Dutch man MINE

The stones do exist, but just what do they really apply to??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[markmar]

Hello Hal

The 18 " lugares " are not mines . Are 18 marks to reach the treasure step by step .
" For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also " Luke 12:34 . These words are a metaphor but could be used and practically , like in the stone maps .
Now about the mines in the stone maps , the author shows 7 but writes for 10 ( under the stone heart ) . The other 3 are in the heart and could be seen in the Latin heart .

 

[Hal Croves]

G'd morning again Hal. You posted ->I am not sure that I completely understand your post.
But, I seem to be stuck on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I too am a bit lost on your answer However you used the no. 18 as a prominent point in your calculation, why ? The nearest basis for the 18 lugares on the stone is from Dobies' story on Tayopa which came out just shortly before the stones were supposedly made by your calculation. Is it just a coincidence??

Frankly it is just a passing thought on my part,since one never knows where the lost key may be found.
'
In other words was there 'ever' a Lost Dutch man MINE

The stones do exist, but just what do they really apply to??

Don Jose de La Mancha

Briliant. Do you know where Dobie found that story or who told it?

 

[Hal Croves]

Hello Hal

The 18 " lugares " are not mines . Are 18 marks to reach the treasure step by step .
" For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also " Luke 12:34 . These words are a metaphor but could be used and practically , like in the stone maps .
Now about the mines in the stone maps , the author shows 7 but writes for 10 ( under the stone heart ) . The other 3 are in the heart and could be seen in the Latin heart .

I am not sure that we see eye to eye on the stones, however here I agree.

I read it as "places"

18 places. The Trail Stone which leads to the center of the heart is confirmed by the Priest Stone.
This trail is the western approach to the heart and is I believe a perilous one, or not. I am going to give it a try next time out.
The intended S = superior trail is as I have shown, starting at Tortilla, through Peter's until you find just the right place to turn. I believe.

My post was really more about the number 18 and the fact that people in the 1940's were thinking about 18 mines. I can not make sense of it.

I believe that this points to someone making them in the 1940. If there is an earlier story, like much earlier, lets say pre-1900 that mentions 18 mines in the Sups, well, the stones might prove to be quit old not to mention valuable.

However, I doubt it.

 

[roadrunner]

It should not matter if it was 18 places, points, mountains, canyons, water holes, what ever.
18 was mentioned before the stones where, right?
How did an author mention 18 something in a book, about any legend, before the 18 on the stones where found.

 

[markmar]

Matt

Dobie , in his book , had a map of Tayopa which shows 18 mines around of a church . But in Dobie of Tayopa map are 23 mines .

 

[markmar]

Hal

I believe the author of the stone maps , choose 18 places/marks because this number is written in the " 1847 " . So , we have 18 lugares , 4 - the heart and 7 mines .

 

[markmar]

Hal

You wrote " This trail is the western approach to the heart " . I agree with this " eye " on the stone trail map . But your "eye " how the trail " starting at Tortilla, through Peter's until you find just the right place to turn " shows a northern approach to the heart .

 

[deducer]

OK, I can re-discover obscure, insignificant facts and point out obvious patterns of human behavior, but a detective works to establish motive, something I have consistently failed at.

When so much of the evidence is circumstantial, motive becomes all that much more important to establish.

With that in mind, what would be the motivation behind carving those stones in the 1940's?

 

[Hal Croves]

It should not matter if it was 18 places, points, mountains, canyons, water holes, what ever.
18 was mentioned before the stones where, right?
How did an author mention 18 something in a book, about any legend, before the 18 on the stones where found.

Yes. How is that possible?
I have been waiting for someone here to respond with the answer, but there may not be one.
And here is something strange, but not related. I am watching an old episode of MASH, from season three, the one when Frank confiscates the still. Well, Frank catches Margaret drinking with Trapper and Hawk-eye, and as they are explaining to Frank how to make spirits from string beans, Hawk-eye says "18" Trapper says "8"...

Why these two numbers? I am not suggesting a link between MASH and Higham and the stones, but perhaps 8/18 has some meaning that is known to authors.
18 is sure important. 8 also. But used together, well, there may be some literary significance to these numbers. I don't honestly know.

As Hawk-eye & Trapper were mocking Frank with deception, perhaps the 18 on the stones does the same thing. (but not to Frank)(Burns).

 

[Hal Croves]

markmar,
If I understand it correctly, one trail in, another out. Others on this site know the old mining rules better. Yes, the journey begins at the Salt. Water being the source of life and processing of ores.

REMEMBER this... a map would never lead directly to the treasure. It gets you to the general area. But with the stones, that last step in your 18 trail may be a single "point" in the triangulation step.

One thing that we can all agree to is that the person who made the stones was a brilliant map maker or a brilliant hoaxer, or both.
It is an odd thing for sure.

 

[Hal Croves]

deducer,
Since I have not been able to deduce that to any degree of confidence, I can only offer you a place to look.

Come to your own conclusions but read Ellie B thoughts and once you have an opinion, see his ideas on a much smaller, much more personal scale.


Welcome to TN!

 

[deducer]

deducer,
Since I have not been able to deduce that to any degree of confidence, I can only offer you a place to look.

Come to your own conclusions but read Ellie B thoughts and once you have an opinion, see his ideas on a much smaller, much more personal scale.


Welcome to TN!

Thanks, Hal.

If you assume the stones were carved in the 1940's, you would have to answer the question of why, and what purpose it served. Since history shows that the stones were in Tumlinson's hands in the 1940's, does that make him the carver of those stones, according to your logic?

 

[Hal Croves]

Thanks, Hal.

If you assume the stones were carved in the 1940's, you would have to answer the question of why, and what purpose it served. Since history shows that the stones were in Tumlinson's hands in the 1940's, does that make him the carver of those stones, according to your logic?

Might well have been Travis.
Always the chance of an expected twist.
I doubt it.
I could type out my theory on who did it, which for me is more of a personal belief than a theory, but you can find that information here on TN.

For me the only person alive at that time who was able to do it was Odd Halseth.

Odd is gone now and it is my own personal belief, but if one were to ask Odd's Grandson if he thought Odd capable or able to create something like the stone map cipher, his response might be...
"I wouldn't be surprised."

All circumstantial, however we are writing here about extraordinary people. The whole lot of Halseths... and Scofields.


Arizona seems to be replete with them at times.

Odd's motive. I don't know. I am working on it and using the FOIA of 66' to help understand it.
If, that is even possible.