Hal Croves
Silver Member
- Sep 25, 2010
- 2,659
- 2,697
Cubfan64,
If the "data" is what Springfield is asking for please let me know. Its a bit Greek... no offense markmar!
Yes, nothing "conclusive", but enough to establish a realistic possibility.
The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own
- Thread starter EE THr
- Start date
Cubfan64,
If the "data" is what Springfield is asking for please let me know. Its a bit Greek... no offense markmar!
Yes, nothing "conclusive", but enough to establish a realistic possibility.
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- Sep 25, 2010
- 2,659
- 2,697
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- Sep 25, 2010
- 2,659
- 2,697
Never underestimate the performance and comfort of wool!
...It is difficult to imagine that men once dressed like that in the American southwest.
sgtfda
Bronze Member
Hal as with most these issues there are those who know and those who will never believe. Why bother it changes nothing. It's not like its not out there if you look. In fact it's common knowledge within the circle. Just not talked about. Just like the Pit mine. How is it a hoax making something and burying it. Others dig it up and make up their own little story and off it goes. I recall in the past asking Robin Moore about the treasure chest location in the islands. Yes he found one but he told me the story was beat to death and not to bother looking for the others. Told me if there was a chance he would help. I listen to those who opinion I respect. A smart treasure hunter does not beat a dead horse. Your a good example. Will you go on or move to a more productive search. Never let these things become a obsession to a point beyond reality. Come to the rendezvous and ask around. Or continue on. Perhaps it's no ones business who made the stones. It's not like someone said take these and find treasure. I don't think Tom or anyone else is obligated to you or any other stoner. You will do as you please anyway. Why? Because you just can't let go. I on the other hand can stop mid stride and go on to other things. Believe me there are always other things. Real things that just might be found. But hell don't pay attention to anything I say. Search on and I wish you gods speed.
Hal Croves
Silver Member
- Sep 25, 2010
- 2,659
- 2,697
I am embarrassed to write that I can not make heads or tales of your post this morning. Those who know? Those who will never believe? Who are you describing and what do they know and who will never believe what? What circle and how does one become part of it?
You asked how it is a hoax to make something and to conceal it... the only answer that I can give is that it is a matter of intention. Were they made to intentionally deceive? If so, most people would call that a hoax, even if there were no story attached. But there is, and it is inscribed into the stones. Is it all a hoax... it just may be. But there is a correct way to read the stones, so that should be ones first concern. They lead to specific things. Now these "things" may simply be nothing of particular importance or there might be something of value, just waiting for the believer. Who knows, yet.
One thing is clear, if Tom knows that name and knows without a doubt that they are an intentional hoax, he has a moral obligation to inform the public. I will not even comment on the legal exposure since I am not an attorney, although I play one on Halloween.
You are correct that "I" am owed nothing, especially by Tom, but as I believe him to be an honest and compassionate man, I chose to believe that his actions (or inaction) simply reflect a level of hope.
"Remember, Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."
somehiker
Silver Member
- May 1, 2007
- 4,365
- 6,431
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Hal:
Sometimes it is best to let sleeping dogs lay undisturbed.
Focus on the stones themselves, rather than which of the many claims of provenance is factual.
If you're doing it right, the pieces you find by using only the maps will eventually fall into place, giving you the answer as to who made them, when they made them, and why they made them.
Regards:SH.
Sometimes it is best to let sleeping dogs lay undisturbed.
Focus on the stones themselves, rather than which of the many claims of provenance is factual.
If you're doing it right, the pieces you find by using only the maps will eventually fall into place, giving you the answer as to who made them, when they made them, and why they made them.
Regards:SH.
Springfield
Silver Member
That's right. Somebody made these stones for a purpose. We may never know who or why. I happen to believe they are of more recent manufacture, but that by itself is also inconclusive as to their purpose. If you expect closure with your efforts, be prepared not to achieve it. Remember - things are seldom as they seem.
sgtfda
Bronze Member
Hal. I already knew the name. I've known it for months. If you do your research you will find it. It's been out there for years. If you can't find it your in the wrong hobby. Don't put the cart before the dead horse I don't start a project until I do my homework. Homework includes checking around to confirm what I suspect. I'm not done yet but can see where things are heading. I did not care for your response and will not share additional information with you. Avoid the tilt Hal when you don't get your way.
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somehiker
Silver Member
- May 1, 2007
- 4,365
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- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Not only that, but he or they carved them on three separate, rather large slabs of stone.
Along with a stone heart or two to add to the workload.
When he could have put everything on a few peices of paper, or parchment, or buffalo skin...and hid it behind a painting or stuck it in a wall.
Maybe leave some clues in an old family bible.
Instead he took them out and buried them in the desert for someone he/they didn't even know to find.
Unless you believe he/they waited thirty years or more for a "mark", one who dug the first one up in the same year that Tom K., ten years old, was first introduced to the Superstitions.
Certainly a major undertaking and strange behavior for anyone, let alone a headstone carver during the great depression.
'Bout as crazy as any treasure story I guess.
Seldom is what makes this hobby more appealing than most for me. If closure came easy I probably wouldn't be as interested as I am.
A pessimist believes all treasure stories are false.
A treasure hunting optimist hopes everyone else is a pessimist.
Regards:SH.(optimist)
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sgtfda
Bronze Member
SH. Part of the fun is listening to all the stories. Finding what sounds good and seeing how it fits.
All Canadians are a optimist. They have gun control.
All Canadians are a optimist. They have gun control.
somehiker
Silver Member
- May 1, 2007
- 4,365
- 6,431
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Yes we do....except where we don't.
But that's politics.
At least it keeps me safe from my law abiding neighbors.
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Matthew Roberts
Bronze Member
Hi Hal,
For many, MANY years, some folks have said they know who carved the stone maps. The list of carvers is a long one and fights have broken out among those who say one party carved them while others say another party carved them. It's not worth arguing over, or losing friends over or making enemies because you agree or disagree with any certain person.
Jesuits are identified by some as the carvers, the Peraltas also, Travis Tumlinson was said to have carved the Stones, Peg Leg Smith was another suspected carver, Ted DeGrazia, Chuck Aylor, even Ted DeGrazia and Chuck Aylor together, Barry Storm got some good votes, Barney Barnard along with a couple others.
The bottom line is no one knows who carved the Stone Maps for sure. There are a lot of suspects and everyone has a favorite and sticks with their favorite.
As I said, it's not worth arguing, making enemies or losing friends over. If you really need to know the name of the "mystery carver", PM me your email and I'll give you the name and where to find the person and the story. Rest assured, it's no big deal.
Matthew K. Roberts
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Matthew,
You left out Tom Kollenborn. He was my favorite suspect for quite awhile. That, of course, was after I had ruled out the Jesuits. You see......I don't always believe I'm right.
Tom knows he was a favorite suspect of mine for the creator or part of the team. Just saying that up front so that people who like to try and throw me under the bus with my friends, won't waste their time.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about here:
"I hope you are aware that cactusjumper and Garry are best of friends and work together as internet trolls and tag team partners to discredit anyone who doesn't fall into their catagory of worthy of being on the forum. It's a game to them, they have set themselves up on a throne as the supreme beings of all things Dutchman and Stone Map and will not tolerate anyone who doesn't fall in line behind them. I have nothing to do with either one of them, they disparage, distort and spread lies about people to try and run off people that they feel are a threat to them. Just a word in case you werent aware."
Since we have not lied, you are no threat to us. It's all about documentation.
That's one man's opinion. "Know what I mean?"
Joe Ribaudo
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coazon de oro
Bronze Member
It amazes me just how many treasure hunters are vulnerable, and how many rely on others to the thinking for them.
Homar P. Olivarez
Homar P. Olivarez
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Homar,
That's an astute observation, but.......Starting at zero, which is where we have all started from on this puzzle, how do we form a single thought on the LDM, without reading someone else's thoughts and opinions. No one has done my thinking for me, (many have tried) but I did come to my conclusions, primarily, based on the research of many Dutch Hunters and writers of history. In doing that, I have researched many of their "facts" on my own.
Take care,
Joe
sgtfda
Bronze Member
Right on Homar. Personally I listen to what folks have to say. If it interest me I check it out. If a group I respect say the same thing I look into it a little more. Throwing something out on a forum is interesting also. Right Joe. You never know what might pop up. It's also a way of checking things out. I've ridden a few dead horses in my life so I can recognize the smell.
just throwing another spud in the stew
but Wasn't it chuck Aylor who used the Shakespeare quote about plucking out the heart,
its odd that PT Barnum tried to buy Anne Hathaway's cottage with the intention of shipping to the states brick by brick in 1847, ? cob as in cobola is welsh for horse, Shakespeare's wife was welsh,
John
but Wasn't it chuck Aylor who used the Shakespeare quote about plucking out the heart,
its odd that PT Barnum tried to buy Anne Hathaway's cottage with the intention of shipping to the states brick by brick in 1847, ? cob as in cobola is welsh for horse, Shakespeare's wife was welsh,
John
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Hal,
This is a big deal. If Tom K. has known the stones are fakes and has said nothing then the countless number of people that have been put in harms way looking for the end of the trail is on his hands. What is terrible is that why not come forward now and be honest before someone in the future is killed out there? Also the people on this board that know the truth should also come forward.
Do not sale your soul to be friends of this bunch they are not worth it.
Mary
This is a big deal. If Tom K. has known the stones are fakes and has said nothing then the countless number of people that have been put in harms way looking for the end of the trail is on his hands. What is terrible is that why not come forward now and be honest before someone in the future is killed out there? Also the people on this board that know the truth should also come forward.
Do not sale your soul to be friends of this bunch they are not worth it.
Mary
cactusjumper
Gold Member
John,
That's a nice piece of research. You never know where these stories will take you.
I first learned of the Shakespeare quote being tied to Chuck Aylor, from page 126 of "Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time" by Tom Kollenborn. That was the impetus of my original thought that Tom and Chuck Aylor may have been involved in the creation of the Stone Maps. Not the first or last time that I may have been wrong.
Joe Ribaudo
That's a nice piece of research. You never know where these stories will take you.
I first learned of the Shakespeare quote being tied to Chuck Aylor, from page 126 of "Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time" by Tom Kollenborn. That was the impetus of my original thought that Tom and Chuck Aylor may have been involved in the creation of the Stone Maps. Not the first or last time that I may have been wrong.
Joe Ribaudo
coazon de oro
Bronze Member
Joe,
In order to put a puzzle together, you have to look for pieces that are a perfect match. I understand that there are many pieces of different puzzles mixed together. It doesn't hurt to look at these different pieces, but don't force them to fit into the LDM picture. While it is an old puzzle, with missing pieces, in my opinion, you can still make out the picture when you connect the right pieces.
Homar
In order to put a puzzle together, you have to look for pieces that are a perfect match. I understand that there are many pieces of different puzzles mixed together. It doesn't hurt to look at these different pieces, but don't force them to fit into the LDM picture. While it is an old puzzle, with missing pieces, in my opinion, you can still make out the picture when you connect the right pieces.
Homar
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