The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Not Peralta]

nde,and cactusjumper, aint et a shame somes yuse bad inglish but ussens always does better after weins has our cofees,and ussens hav our squirrel,biskitts, and graveys,with this old tik and flee sprye np , ps its a jog toye old outer shak,anie body sean my old catalog. also im not going to tell you who this is ,oh ,ialready forgot

 

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[Hal Croves]

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Springfield,
Thank you for the pack of game cards. That was very kind and he was very excited when he opened the package. This is the card which he likes best and actually has been looking for for some time.

Thanks again!

 

[Hal Croves]

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Following the Horse map will lead you to the Knife, which I believe is (among other things), a warning.
Here, I will admit that I am a little superstitious. This is not a place to underestimate.
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[cactusjumper]

NP,

Was it during the time the mission was known as Santa Maria, Santa Maria Suamca or Santa Cruz? What was the name of the priest at the time you are referring to? Who was the priest who preached at the end of the cliff?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

NP,

Do you need some help with the answers to my questions? As the mission seems to play an important role in your story, you should have the answers at your fingertips.

Nde,

There may be a small amount of sarcasm in the above message. Sorry if you find it offensive.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

fairly sad that i can not even apologize for my behavior without a glee club chiming in....

i was only looking for old friends... i remember having some...i think.

 

[cactusjumper]

fairly sad that i can not even apologize for my behavior without a glee club chiming in....

i was only looking for old friends... i remember having some...i think.

Donald,

You should not take their tomfoolery personally. It's a product of shear boredom and does not require any deep thought process. Same as many of my own posts. On the other hand, while I am not an "old friend", you have found a new one.

Since you did not write a note with Susan's book, did you intend for me to keep it? If I were you, I would consider it a personal treasure.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

edge

Sgt, You as a copper, flatfoot, gumshoe, XXXX, among the kinder words, know exactly why.

In my situation, the same as what drives you in a new case, The 'answer to an unknown', the final word in a super cross word puzzle.

In lost mines and treasures, at first the financial reward is prominent. Then as time goes by, equal in importance is solving what others haven't been able to. Then as more time and effort goes by, the solving becomes of primary importance, and in the end - the solving is IT, even without any compensation.

This is why I can quietly stand looking at Tayopa, La Gloria Pan, La Tarasca, Las Pimas and Tepoca without any driving urge to open them up, that is for another period, another time.

I have enough at the present time to live comfortably, and am looking forward to the next one, perhaps El Naranjal, then the Dutchman, if you seekers haven't. finally succeeded.

However Tayopa will never be bypassed, as too much history, international intrigue, and death is involved in it to allow this.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[sgtfda]

Nice Don Jose!

 

[somehiker]

I am still waiting for that location.
But you are right. Tortilla Flat is where the horse belongs.

It might be that they are silver mines, five or six of them, that surround the "5" symbol.
"5" representing "silver".
To me, this map is telling us that whatever once was at these locations is now "cached" at the dot on the horses hind leg.
Difficult to say if its hidden in an old mine shaft, a cave, or just buried.

Or that dot could be part of something larger that is read once all the maps are in their correct position and scaled properly. Triangulation might be the final step.
Who knows.

I haven't had time as yet to look through my notes regarding the map Hal.
When I do, I will scan the info and send it along.
Personally I find the similarity of the five dots on the H/P stone to those on the gold bars found by Brady and France, to be a better connection than "5" as a "cypher" for silver. I've tested possible scenarios at the discovery site and in the mountains, as recently as last fall, for what I thought they might represent,
but each "possible" had some flaw evident on site. But something has drawn my attention to the various "cave of gold bars" stories. Ward's version, where the finder lost the bar he was carrying, was of particular interest to me. Just one more idea I'll have to follow up on next fall.
The only way I have found drawing lines on portions of the maps of any use, has been to determine "sight lines". These can help me understand the alignment of various markings on the stones, relative to their exact position and perspective out there. I don't see anything on the stones as a "cipher", at least the way I understand the definition. Same goes for any "treasure symbols" on the stones, where I have yet to find any which work for me. There are at least two on site however, which do not appear on the stones in the same form, or even in the same location. They may be entirely natural.
Mine shaft, caves, or buried ? Could be any one, or even all three. I'm inclined to think that they did not want to have to expend a great deal of effort in recovery, or risk the chance that signs of mining might give the location away. I tend to favor the idea that choosing a natural cavity (cave,crevice, or natural depression) might be more appealing.

Regards:SH.

 

[Springfield]

....But something has drawn my attention to the various "cave of gold bars" stories. Ward's version, where the finder lost the bar he was carrying, was of particular interest to me. Just one more idea I'll have to follow up on next fall.....

Regards:SH.

Ah, the 'Cave of Gold Bars' legends - they're the most effective of the well-worn hooks. Same goes for the 'Mine With the Iron Door' - lots of iron doors out there. Then we have the 'Mexican's Map' phenomena - another time-tested goodie. The 'Indian-ambush-we-had-to bury-the-gold' one is so silly, it's a wonder anyone swallowed that one. I'm a Gold Bar Cave junkie myself. Welcome to the club.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy sgtfda,

To begin with, I have a passion for treasure stories, but some are just that, stories with nothing to go by. The PSM's besides them being a map, have a lot to go by, even what waits in the target area is etched in stone. However, what propels me is the fact that I like challenges.

Homar

 

[peralta]

NP,

Do you need some help with the answers to my questions? As the mission seems to play an important role in your story, you should have the answers at your fingertips.

Nde,

There may be a small amount of sarcasm in the above message. Sorry if you find it offensive.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe its Santa Maria Magdalena, I don't know the priest during kinos time.he is buried there,the franciscans later built the mission.they say it was kinos mission.kinos favorite mission was Dolores mission.

 

[somehiker]

Ah, the 'Cave of Gold Bars' legends - they're the most effective of the well-worn hooks. Same goes for the 'Mine With the Iron Door' - lots of iron doors out there. Then we have the 'Mexican's Map' phenomena - another time-tested goodie. The 'Indian-ambush-we-had-to bury-the-gold' one is so silly, it's a wonder anyone swallowed that one. I'm a Gold Bar Cave junkie myself. Welcome to the club.

It's a club of many members Springfield. Out of all the teasers, I too prefer the cave of gold bars anecdotes.
I'm wary of digging any holes out there, cause it's a no no in the SW, and lifting a gold or silver bar has more appeal than lifting a shovel.
Victorio Peak is one cave of bars which continues to attract a fair bit of interest.
It's also a good example of why most would not share such a location, as Hal suggested in a previous comment. While governments may may have enacted laws to "protect" such places, they are also able to bypass these same laws with impunity. Barring access to and/or removal of historical evidence seems a common tactic employed by those at odds with our hobby. I'd at least like to be able to get in with witnesses and get photos (a rare commodity in these cases) before something like that could happen.

Regards:SH.

 

[Hal Croves]

I haven't had time as yet to look through my notes regarding the map Hal.
When I do, I will scan the info and send it along.
Personally I find the similarity of the five dots on the H/P stone to those on the gold bars found by Brady and France, to be a better connection than "5" as a "cypher" for silver. I've tested possible scenarios at the discovery site and in the mountains, as recently as last fall, for what I thought they might represent,
but each "possible" had some flaw evident on site. But something has drawn my attention to the various "cave of gold bars" stories. Ward's version, where the finder lost the bar he was carrying, was of particular interest to me. Just one more idea I'll have to follow up on next fall.
The only way I have found drawing lines on portions of the maps of any use, has been to determine "sight lines". These can help me understand the alignment of various markings on the stones, relative to their exact position and perspective out there. I don't see anything on the stones as a "cipher", at least the way I understand the definition. Same goes for any "treasure symbols" on the stones, where I have yet to find any which work for me. There are at least two on site however, which do not appear on the stones in the same form, or even in the same location. They may be entirely natural.
Mine shaft, caves, or buried ? Could be any one, or even all three. I'm inclined to think that they did not want to have to expend a great deal of effort in recovery, or risk the chance that signs of mining might give the location away. I tend to favor the idea that choosing a natural cavity (cave,crevice, or natural depression) might be more appealing.

Regards:SH.

somehiker,

Do you believe that there are five or six dots surrounding the "5" symbol... or number if you like?

I am posting this with hope that you will take the time to read the email and to examine the images and to perhaps comment on the results. Quite honestly, this part of treasure hunting is unfamiliar and your thoughts would be appreciated.

In my mind, these results demonstrate that the theory is probably correct, especially when compared to the suggested scale and placement of the horse stone.


View attachment 809586



View attachment 809587
Stream Sediment Anomalies

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Pan Concentrate Anomalies

Regarding the definition of a cipher/cypher... this is the best that I can find.


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I am hopping that the history of Tortilla Flat is reconsidered among academics and historians... and I would not mind seeing your file on that location one day. wink, wink.

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[Cubfan64]

Ooooh Hal!!!! This stuff is right up my alley!! Gotta digest that e-mail again tonight as some questions popped into my head at a quick glance. I love this kind of thing! Beats the boring old chemistry I have to deal with every day at work - heck, THIS stuff is INTERESTING!!

Hope all's well - sorry I haven't kept in touch. Life's been getting in the way of fun sadly.

 

[somehiker]

Hal:
I'm not a geologist, but I agree with Paul in China .
The absence of gold in the samples from Tortilla Creek is surprising, but then again not all prospectors can find gold in a given location.
I see the author of the report did obtain and analyze samples from the Gonzalas Needle/Government Well area, where several mines exist.
I see no relationship between this report and the Horse Stone however. While I agree the history and favorable conditions found at Tortilla Flat would have made it a good place to set up a "Campo Mayor" for a spread out mining effort, that doesn't mean the Horse is part of a cipher leading to this area.IMO.
BTW: Campo also means field or pasture......ie: pasto=campo
I have no disagreement with the definition of "cipher/cypher" as given.
Five dots only.....not six.
Two high resolution crops, first from a B/W photo
second from one of Mike M. 's photo shot of the stone at the SMHS Museum.

View attachment Dots 1.bmp View attachment Dots 2.bmp

Perhaps, if you see another dot, you could illustrate the location on one of these crops.

Regards:SH.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal:
I'm not a geologist, but I agree with Paul in China .
The absence of gold in the samples from Tortilla Creek is surprising, but then again not all prospectors can find gold in a given location.
I see the author of the report did obtain and analyze samples from the Gonzalas Needle/Government Well area, where several mines exist.
I see no relationship between this report and the Horse Stone however. While I agree the history and favorable conditions found at Tortilla Flat would have made it a good place to set up a "Campo Mayor" for a spread out mining effort, that doesn't mean the Horse is part of a cipher leading to this area.IMO.
BTW: Campo also means field or pasture......ie: pasto=campo
I have no disagreement with the definition of "cipher/cypher" as given.
Five dots only.....not six.
Two high resolution crops, first from a B/W photo
second from one of Mike M. 's photo shot of the stone at the SMHS Museum.

View attachment 809643 View attachment 809646

Perhaps, if you see another dot, you could illustrate the location on one of these crops.

Regards:SH.

I have been wrestling with this one from the start. And I am not even sure that it is another dot. But there is something that looks like a dot, perhaps faded or worn. It might be nothing, but I have not been able to eliminate it. If it can not be eliminated, it needs to be considered as possibly intentional. That would change your connection to that bar and the pattern, which I don't see matching anyway. It is not perfect as I think you will agree.
Something to consider anyway.

View attachment 809727
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I don't know what to say about your comment about prospectors.
From my understanding of the methodology involved, the data and the professional who did the work, it is either there, or its not (not to mention his ability to find gold where it is to be expected). As I have said, the results point to concentrates of silver coming from a source somewhere above the sample site(s). The "5" is a treasure symbol which represents silver. One thing that I will tell you, and you will have to take my word for it, for now, is that each one of those dots has a trail that leads right to it... when place and scaled as I have suggested.

It is there, you just have to look. But I will tell you this my friend, if it is correct, and read as I believe they are read, you will find yourself a little more than pissed off.
And you would have the right to be.

.... I just want to expand on this. I will say now that if those dots represent mines, or caves, or other, the locations were known and marked by "modern" people. It is very confusing, however if they exist, where I believe they exist, at least some of them are marked (possible coincidentally) by a modern "marker", an object(s). But it looks to me that if there is something, it was known about and very real efforts were made to conceal it, while at the same time marking it (some of it) and protecting it. "That's all I have to say about that". F.G.

Let me ask a question. If it were not a wilderness area, and if it were open for exploitation and if you found something incredible, something that would make headlines (beyond Apache Junction) and knowing what would eventually happen to that discovery once it was reported on and made public, would you keep it a secret and walk away or would you bring in the press?

This may be why the stones were made. IMO.

 

[Hal Croves]

Ooooh Hal!!!! This stuff is right up my alley!! Gotta digest that e-mail again tonight as some questions popped into my head at a quick glance. I love this kind of thing! Beats the boring old chemistry I have to deal with every day at work - heck, THIS stuff is INTERESTING!!

Hope all's well - sorry I haven't kept in touch. Life's been getting in the way of fun sadly.

Cubfan64,
Chew it up if you don't mind. I would like to read your take on the results and the approach. Honestly, I think that it is a shot right between the ears, but you might see something that is problematic with the material.

 

[somehiker]

Hal:
This end view from one of my own photos shows your other dot to be a stain of the same color and probably the same mineral as the other on this corner of the stone. I've spent a fair bit of time looking over the stones at the museum, and my "detail" notes also mention these stains as well.

View attachment Upper left HP stone.bmp

Very little on any of the stones is "perfect", since the originals IMO, were carved by hand with simple tools. The same would be the case with the markings made upon the Brady/France Bar, as these were likely done with a punch and chisel, rather than a "stamp" as would be the case for any bullion marked for official inspection. The "5" may refer to the lines between the dots on the bars, there being five of those as well, or that there are five caches. I keep in mind that the maps use the numbers 1-4 under the cross held forward by the Priest. Therefore the "5" may very well be part of the sequence. By it's location on the stone, I believe it is, but I will have to search that relatively small area to be sure.
I rarely get pissed off about anything to do with this hobby, or for that matter how others may see things. If your analysis should lead you to 5 or 6 silver mines or caches, and you can post photos of each of them, I will of course be quite pleased with your accomplishment.
It is obvious we are far apart with our theories of the genesis of the stones, their functionality, and the area to which they apply. That should be a good thing, rather than a source of contention, in that it offers a more diverse collection of ideas from which to proceed.
It doesn't matter to me that what I seek is within a protected area. The laws are clear on what can or cannot be legally done, and it's wise to be familiar with them. Even outside a wilderness area, such as on BLM, TNF,Federal or State lands which are open to the public, certain laws still apply which make any kind of recovery of treasure and shaft/pit mining nigh impossible to pursue without express permission.
"would you keep it a secret and walk away or would you bring in the press? "
In response to your question, having received some legal opinion regarding the available options, I can only say.....it depends.

Regards:SH.

 

[sgtfda]

Had to go to the Apache Junction fruit market today so I decided to meet up with Tom K at the Blue Bird. By the way they have a set of the stones on display in the front window. Copies just like the museum. God everyone has them. Tom told me a acquaintance made the stones in the 30's and placed them in the FJ spot. I asked why there and he said the guy was working in the area. This person also worked as a tombstone engraver. Which explains a lot. I wanted to ask him about the Burns from Burns Ranch and the pitt mine. The stones came up after I noticed the window display. I will still keep a open mind as its fun to play with the issue.