The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I never developed a solid opinion one way or another concerning the stone cross maps, latin artifact, or other things Mike found. I neither promote nor disparage them and his account. I listened to Mike's accounting and thanked him for sharing it with me. I was always more interested in his mining claims as there is some basis to those claims and I have several samples taken from the claims that proved interesting although not rich. The Bilbry site is not hard to get to if you know where you are going and not hard to locate because of the debris piles and trenches stick out once you get up high enough. Everyone is free to view the site for themselves and draw their own conclusions. The mining claims were filed with the BLM and are on record showing their locations. I believe there were 5 or 6 claims altogether. The US Forest Service sent a representative out to Bilbry's claims to analize the minerals and that is also on record. Hope this helps some in your researchings.

Matthew K. Roberts

Matthew Roberts,
Yes, a big help. Thank you again. Looks like you are in California from your member description. Do you still find time to hike the Superstitions? Will you be at this years rendezvous event?

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew Roberts,
Yes, a big help. Thank you again. Looks like you are in California from your member description. Do you still find time to hike the Superstitions? Will you be at this years rendezvous event?

Hal,

Yes, I have lived here in Southern California for several years now, work requires I located here but plan to return to Arizona when I finally retire. Yes, I still hike the mountains every chance I can get, just was on a great hike with Jack Carlson, Dick Walp, Greg Davis, Roger Newkirk and Brian Lickman out through Garden Valley and points beyond. Yes, I'm definitely looking forward to the 2013 Rendezvous, I've missed a few of them but always because I was out in the mountains during the days the Rendezvous fell. I always camp with Greg Davis, Clay Worst, Jack, Roger, Peter Esposito and several other old Dutch Hunters so drop by and it will be great to meet you and talk.

The BLM claim map I posted is the one from 1983, the one Mike and friends filed in January 1983 before the filing deadline for the Wilderness Act. The one I'm looking for, and is more relevant is the earlier 1980 filing, not the "LDM" claims. There is a twist to the Bilbry claims and filings. Hopefully I can find it and post it before I have to leave today for San Diego. I don't get to look in and post every day but am off for the Memorial Day weekend.

Matthew K. Roberts

 

[cactusjumper]

Everyone out there have a great Memorial Day weekend. That goes especially for the Vietnam Vets and all of our brothers who are, or have been, in the Armed Services.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

This is one of a series of photos of the original Stone Crosses ...

View attachment Original Crosses.bmp

 

[Hal Croves]

somehiker,
Wow, I have seen other pictures before, but I had no idea of the scale. THANK YOU!

 

[Matthew Roberts]

somehiker,
Wow, I have seen other pictures before, but I had no idea of the scale. THANK YOU!

Hal,

The late Jim Hatt had some very good to scale reproductions made of the Stone Maps, Stone Crosses, Latin Heart and original Stone map Heart.
All were made to scale and as accurate as possible with the "originals" or photos as a guide.
I think Jim used a plaster type mixture for the reproductions. Several people purchased these reproductions from Jim or were given copies.
I know Greg Davis has a complete set and may be persuaded to bring them with him to the next Rendezvous.

Matthew Roberts

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'evening Mathew: just in time for our evening coffee relaxation. Cactus Joe has started the fire, which feels good, since it is starting to get bit chilly, so drag up a rock and sit, but not quietly, talk, you have permission, in fact .........

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[somehiker]

As far as I know, Jim only made replicas of the Stone Crosses and the Latin Heart. He pulled his last two crosses down off the wall above his computer desk and insisted I take them during the first visit I made to his home. I had shown him a series of photos which I was working with, including one of a horse. It was one which I had already cropped for posting, but after looking at it for a bit he advised me not to put it online and said "take it down, I don't want to look at it any more". He never asked where I found it. Instead he showed me a collection of photos he had, mostly of his own, including many of things that I had never seen or heard of before.
He also showed me the latex rubber molds which he used for his replicas, which were in rough shape, but he thought he might be able to get one more set of crosses out of them to replace the ones he gave me. I don't think he ever got around to doing it.

Regards:SH.

 

[Hal Croves]

Something to think about for those willing to consider that the stones may be a modern work. Stylistic interpretation is and always will be subjective, but I find this example (one from the correct period - IMO) to be amusing. Have a great weekend!

View attachment 802429
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[somehiker]

Something to think about for those willing to consider that the stones may be a modern work. Stylistic interpretation is and always will be subjective, but I find this example (one from the correct period - IMO) to be amusing. Have a great weekend!

View attachment 802429
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Obviously the stones were not carved by him, but there were many of his fellow travelers who were just as artistic.
Giuseppe Castiglione (Jesuit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Giuseppe Castiglione (Lang Shining): One Hundred Horses (1991.134) | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Also in the right period. And...
[Horses with heavy outlines:] Some of the horses have reinforced outlines to enable the artist and his assistants to trace them accurately onto the silk of the finished version.
"Because painting on silk does not allow for correction or overpainting, Castiglione worked out every detail in a preparatory drawing on paper before he traced the design onto silk. This final draft has recently come to light, providing a unique opportunity to understand how Castiglione modified his style to suit his Chinese patrons."

More: The Jesuits Cultures, Sciences, and the Arts 1540-1773 - Google Books



Regards:SH.

BTW: When I read the report done by Desert Archeology Inc. ... http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/peralta/Arizona Highways.pdf ... along with the E-Mails that Beth Decker had exchanged with the DA staff who had conducted the examination... the existence of both "One Hundred Horses" and common examples of Jesuit hearts made me question the scientific objectivity of their examination and report. I had no difficulty in finding "iconography" which they had claimed did not exist.

 

[Hal Croves]

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I think that the comparison is a bit off. Not to be confrontational, but Castiglione's work is sophisticated and what I consider to be high-art, as opposed to the crude illustrative nature of the stones. In my head an illustrator and an artist are two very different things, but this is a personal prejudice. For example, Norman Rockwell's work. It is illustrative as opposed to what I consider to be "art". However, I have seen one or two works of his not generally on display to the public that bridge this gap. I am not suggesting any connection to the artist who illustrated these postcards other than a stylistic similarity of the 1930'-1940's.

I myself have very deep concerns over the work done by Desert Archeology Inc.

somehiker - your research is top shelf. And that is a fact - Jack.

 

[somehiker]

As I mentioned, there is no reason to think that Castiglione made the stones. They didn't require an artist of that level.
Only someone who could sketch a horse in perspective, based on what he could see in front of him, and then carve it into the face of a flat piece of rock.
And it does show that simple line drawings, like Castiglione's "preparatory drawings" were very similar to that of the horse on the stone and were around long before the 20th century. That his horses vary somewhat from the stone map horse (mainly the head) is explained in the history of his work.
"understand how Castiglione modified his style to suit his Chinese patrons."

View attachment chinese horse.bmpChinese Sculpture

If he had been drawing 100 western horses, his drawing may have been closer in proportion to the horse on the stone.
It is far more difficult to put a horse, or a priest on a rock, than it is to draw or paint them on paper or canvas.
There was no need for any detail or realism greater than what is shown on the stones IMO.
They weren't intended to become anything more than what they are.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Hal,

This is what Tom Kollenborn wrote about the stone cross maps:

"These are the stone cross maps allegedly found on the northwest side of Tortilla Mountain by Michael Bilfry and Ed Farr around 1977. They were considered a fraud from the beginning, but there are always those who believe in lost gold and would accept these crosses as authentic."

Good luck,

Joe

Tom's published and often quoted opinions are something I count on to prevent all but a very few from participating in the search.
I'm sure that if Tom were to express a belief in the Stone Maps and Crosses, I would find it much more difficult to work on them due to a possible increase of like minded individuals and groups camped out there. Tom and a couple of others, whom I recognize as experts on the Sups and exceptionally familiar with the terrain, are also the reason so many of the photos I post are cropped to the extent that they are.
Although I doubt Tom bothers to follow this website, there is always the chance that someone could forward a photo to him for identification of the area where it was taken.

Regards:Wayne

 

[sgtfda]

I agree on that Wayne! I always look forward to talking to him at Dons Camp. Though we usually talk about police stuff. Tom was a officer in his younger days.

 

[peralta]

I had been working on a longer reply, complete with a number of references, but have decided to make it a topic of it's own at a later date.
Instead, I will answer your comments with an abbreviated version...hope you don't mind.

Don Agustin Vildosola, appointed Governor of Sonora in 1741 had, at the request of the Jesuits, issued an order allowing them to cross the Gila for the purpose of converting the Moqui.
In such circumstances, reports were expected to be made.
Such a report would explain the loss of a member of the military escort ( which due to cutbacks...sound familiar?... was limited to no more than six), his effects, and the animals and any heavy cargo during the attempt.
It would also discourage any others from following the same trail, especially if something valuable had been cached at the campsite near/adjacent to the trail.

With the turmoil and lack of continued support from the Pima, it's possible that a decision was made to leave the stones where they were and simply make a map or derrotero indicating where they could be found . I believe this derrotero/map/waybill is what Tumlinson used to locate the stones. I have seen nothing within all the documents gathered re: Tumlinson which would cause me to question his credibility or his integrity. If some wish to rely on "heck, I was there" references to Tumlinson or his history, they may of course do so,and be the poorer for it IMO.

Regards:SH.

Hello my friends,I am still recouperating from a tripple bypass surgury.
Tumlinson told the truth,I have seen all the markings.some markings like the horse is gigantic, others like the knife is small.Don't search from the air .
I want to share new evidence but sill can't find new thread button on left top.
Take care tom

 

[somehiker]

I agree on that Wayne! I always look forward to talking to him at Dons Camp. Though we usually talk about police stuff. Tom was a officer in his younger days.

I also count on the "I almost believed it, until I started reading about it " syndrome to keep other T-Hunters at bay.

Tom's Bio is available here...Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Bio
A good collection of his articles can be found here....Tom Kollenborn Chronicles

I do want to talk with him about one recent article he wrote, Jan 14th,2013, "The Real Treasure".
In this article he seems to be advocating a "Sierra Club" kind of approach to the Superstitions, where public access is severely restricted by permits and fees.
This is being done with huge swaths of wild land throughout the US, all with the approval of Congress.
Although there are times when I am disgusted by the trash left behind by those with no respect for the wilderness, I would hate to see Lobby Groups such as the Sierra Club effectively gain control over lands which ALL taxpayers support. The Tonto National Forest also seems to be pursuing this ideology, where access to "uncontrolled" trailheads is being curtailed by road closures such as was recently done with the road to the Massacre Ground trailhead. They hope to eventually close others, such as the Tortilla Ranch road as well, and I believe they will only be satisfied when even those many places where we can now pull off to the side of the Apache Trail and set out for a hike are also blocked off with rows of boulders.I've observed this happening in many places I've been to, from the Florida Keys to Yellowstone, Rocky Mountain Nat. Pk. in Colorado to The Superstition Wilderness....even up here in Canada. Yet all of us still get to pay the bills. The threatened closure of the Lost Dutchman State Park a couple of years back should be a wake-up call for the TNF personnel. It wasn't the Sierra Clubbers who came up with the cash to keep it open, and it's not the Sierra Club who is going to cover their job and paycheck when budgets are cut.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Sheesh Tom....look here

View attachment LDM page.bmp

You must have found it last year...http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/g...ocation-found-but-not-superstition-mount.html

 

[Springfield]

.... In this article he seems to be advocating a "Sierra Club" kind of approach to the Superstitions, where public access is severely restricted by permits and fees.

This is being done with huge swaths of wild land throughout the US, all with the approval of Congress.....

Regards:SH.

As you pointed out, it's been happening for years on local, state and federal levels. Now we have corporations like Xanterra managing the Grand Canyon. I suspect that privatization of public lands has only begun - gotta pay down that nasty public debt, you know. Maybe some day the government will sell the Canyon to a nice corporation that will put toll booths on the trail heads. Make the user fee substantial to keep the riffraff out.

 

[somehiker]

As you pointed out, it's been happening for years on local, state and federal levels. Now we have corporations like Xanterra managing the Grand Canyon. I suspect that privatization of public lands has only begun - gotta pay down that nasty public debt, you know. Maybe some day the government will sell the Canyon to a nice corporation that will put toll booths on the trail heads. Make the user fee substantial to keep the riffraff out.

Xanterra (google it) and it's owner, Phillip Anschutz, has purchased many friendships on both sides of the House.
It doesn't matter anymore, who's got the reins, the buggy's always going where they want it to go.
Where,if you're not on the green list, and driving a Volt or a Tessla, they won't even let you in unless you park outside and ride the company bus.
...after the DHS checks your recyclable underwear...

What I'd like to see, is more concern shown for the wilderness areas along the border.
Cause it doesn't look as though the Sierra Clubbers care much about what's happening down there.

 

[sgtfda]

On Tom K's Facebook page photo file is a photo of a stone map. Some say the final stone map. Looks copy cat to me. Any opinion. Tom has some great photos on that page. You will want to look at his photo collection. Can't find it there is a link on my Facebook page. Frank Augustine