The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Springfield]

There must be a report on Roman lead artifacts from the same period somewhere. A similar level of antimony might give the artifacts some legs.

These out-of-place-artifacts, like hundreds of other controversial finds (especially in the midwest), have a history of 'qualified' supporters and, ultimately, equally 'qualified skeptics'. Academia, of course, has the 'final say', which nearly always preserves accepted dogma. A review of the Kensington rune stone unearthed in Minnesota is a well-known example of the tug of war that results.

Your observation - documenting the Romans' use of lead alloys - is the sort of tedious research necessary to gather evidence surrounding just one aspect of this particular set of artifacts. Lots more tedious research would also be required to establish a data base of facts and documentation for other aspects of these finds - such as hinted at by somehiker - from which to proceed. This requires a commitment that seemingly hasn't been made yet, but the Roman Artifacts seem to be in the news lately, so maybe a serious objective effort is coming. Meanwhile, their true place in the world, like Troy before Schliemann, is a matter of opinion. My personal opinion is that the artifacts haven't been proven or disproven.

 

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[Ellie Baba]

View attachment 799230Sigh, the main purpose of DMSO is it's ability to carry other chemicals or minerals - in a proper solution - into the body, might be considered as a entryless / needle less / jetless injection. Yes, it does work, & well. according to available records, but then none so far are 100 %. The best is the Cesium Chloride treatment hitting around 80+ %. With the AMA hitting around 5 - 10 %.

Ya takes yer choice and go for a single throw of life's dice. Me, I chose Cesium Chloriide and 10 years later, am still alive, wth absolutely no sign of cancer in any form, despite having been given a 2-4 month max prognosis and am now pestering everyone.

Hush Homar, peeps.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Yes this was me before, but not now. Unfortunately due to not enough information then, and family pressure, I allowed a radical neck disection which left my right shoulder without support and now droops. Although Cactus Joe has accused me of watching too many porn shows, tain't true honest. sigh.

Don Jose,

We both know that it's all of that coffee you have been drinking! Viva la Don Jose!

Ellie B

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'morning Ellie: Yer coffee is waiting in the patio. Speaking of coffee, I drink it because it supposedly wards off Alzheimers, unfortunately I am living proof that that is just an unfounded rumor. Sigh, still the coffee is worth drinking in it's own right..... gives me a legit. excuse to watch Lupita wriggling around.

I missed the first references to the Tucson artifacts - when were they ? - but it sounds suspiciously similar to Pewter, which was used extensively in Col America. Small statues and copies of weapons - swords -were often made from it as cheap substitutes D'ya suppose there is any connection?

I hate to come into the middle of a series of posts, such as this, as I always manage to put my foot in it somewhere.

But as they say "idiots rush in where wise men fear to tread."

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Not Peralta]

cactusjumper,the history around what you are showing,the feather, the three stones,especially the blue stone,wouldn't even been known today if it wasnt for philip cassadore.thats apache fact.np ps,he was also good friends with ted d,and introduced ted d,around the san carlos community.

 

[Not Peralta]

cactusjumper, I think, I know who you are refering to,vietnam war hero,with three purple hearts,Its funny to me, because he even changed his name to make it look good,np

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Phillip Cassadore, 53, an Indian medicine man who was a... - Orlando Sentinel

I met phillip...back when I was wandering apache country...the dragoons, Tucson.
good man. left too soon...

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper, I think, I know who you are refering to,vietnam war hero,with three purple hearts,Its funny to me, because he even changed his name to make it look good,np

NP,

The only possible change to his name was to switch his first and middle name around. It's still the name on his birth certificate and all public records. I did not have any real doubts about him until someone else gave me the documented facts. As a Vietnam Vet, that was the "fact" that really got to me, more than any other fabrication.

On the other hand, I still know that he has vast knowledge on local and Apache history. Unfortunately, a lot of it is pure fiction that he made up.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

" Do you know of any locations along or just off the Apache Trail that are at the elevation of 1847? "

that would be just about first water trail at route 88...
{in the bark notes, it states he had a board house at this junction: a northern bunk house."

 

[Hal Croves]

" Do you know of any locations along or just off the Apache Trail that are at the elevation of 1847? "

that would be just about first water trail at route 88...
{in the bark notes, it states he had a board house at this junction: a northern bunk house."

And then there is the Tortilla Flat area to think about...

 

[somehiker]

And then there is the Tortilla Flat area to think about...

Tortilla Flat has always been a prime suspect for me. Old spanish artifacts and arrastras were found by the early cattlemen in the area of TF and Mormon Flat.
It often has water, when there is little anywhere else, and it's not far from many places closely linked to both spanish mining and the LDM story. Barry Storm spent time living in a cave above Tortilla Fat, and wrote "Thunder God's Gold" while living there. I once thought the huge heart above Tortilla Flat ...


View attachment 799858
View attachment 799858

was the one shown on the Trail Map, or at least one of the "4" suggested by that number within the small heart below the Priest. The photo was shot from an elevation of 1840, well within a normal margin of error for early altimeters. This photo, originally from Cay Worst, of Brownie Holmes sitting on the boulder where Waltz was waiting for his father, is at 1847 ft. as well.

View attachment 799966

I've managed to collect an extensive file of info and photos of the area around T/F and M/F and believe Tortilla Flat to be where the maker of the Stone Maps may have made camp at one time. There is an old trail which begins at T/F and leads to Geronimo Head, Peters Mesa and beyond. Feldman claims it is an old spanish pack trail and it makes for a rugged but very interesting hike.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

"Barry Storm spent time living in a cave above Tortilla Fat, and wrote "Thunder God's Gold" while living there."

What you say is true, but Storm only moved into the cave for about a year....after he and Nell Powell had a falling out.
Storm came to Tortilla Flat in the winter of 1942. Nell was the owner of the General Store and he rented a cabin from her. It was rumored that they were lovers.

"History Of Tortilla Flat" is a nice little pamphlet that tells the story. It was written by Robert M. Brock. It's said that Storm was so angry with Nell after the breakup, that he struck all mention of Tortilla Flat from his book.

"This photo, originally from Cay Worst, of Brownie Holmes sitting on the boulder where Waltz was waiting for him is at 1847 ft. as well."


I thought is was Dick Holmes who found Waltz waiting for him on the boulder.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

"Barry Storm spent time living in a cave above Tortilla Fat, and wrote "Thunder God's Gold" while living there."

What you say is true, but Storm only moved into the cave for about a year....after he and Nell Powell had a falling out.
Storm came to Tortilla Flat in the winter of 1942. Nell was the owner of the General Store and he rented a cabin from her. It was rumored that they were lovers.

"History Of Tortilla Flat" is a nice little pamphlet that tells the story. It was written by Robert M. Brock. It's said that Storm was so angry with Nell after the breakup, that he struck all mention of Tortilla Flat from his book.

"This photo, originally from Cay Worst, of Brownie Holmes sitting on the boulder where Waltz was waiting for him is at 1847 ft. as well."


I thought is was Dick Holmes who found Waltz waiting for him on the boulder.

Take care,

Joe

Correct. I should have said "where Waltz was waiting for his father."....now edited

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

The "facts" on the LDM are constantly shifting and changing. I never know when someone has actually found some new evidence on old stories. After awhile it gets hard to remember who you came to the dance with, in the first place.

Take care,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

Tortilla Flat has always been a prime suspect for me. Old spanish artifacts and arrastras were found by the early cattlemen in the area of TF and Mormon Flat.
It often has water, when there is little anywhere else, and it's not far from many places closely linked to both spanish mining and the LDM story. Barry Storm spent time living in a cave above Tortilla Fat, and wrote "Thunder God's Gold" while living there. I once thought the huge heart above Tortilla Flat ...


View attachment 799858
View attachment 799858

was the one shown on the Trail Map, or at least one of the "4" suggested by that number within the small heart below the Priest. The photo was shot from an elevation of 1840, well within a normal margin of error for early altimeters. This photo, originally from Cay Worst, of Brownie Holmes sitting on the boulder where Waltz was waiting for his father, is at 1847 ft. as well.

View attachment 799966

I've managed to collect an extensive file of info and photos of the area around T/F and M/F and believe Tortilla Flat to be where the maker of the Stone Maps may have made camp at one time. There is an old trail which begins at T/F and leads to Geronimo Head, Peters Mesa and beyond. Feldman claims it is an old spanish pack trail and it makes for a rugged but very interesting hike.

Howdy Wayne,

That looks like an other heart, just above the tree.

Homar

 

[Hal Croves]

Tortilla Flat has always been a prime suspect for me. Old spanish artifacts and arrastras were found by the early cattlemen in the area of TF and Mormon Flat.
It often has water, when there is little anywhere else, and it's not far from many places closely linked to both spanish mining and the LDM story.

I've managed to collect an extensive file of info and photos of the area around T/F and M/F and believe Tortilla Flat to be where the maker of the Stone Maps may have made camp at one time. There is an old trail which begins at T/F and leads to Geronimo Head, Peters Mesa and beyond. Feldman claims it is an old spanish pack trail and it makes for a rugged but very interesting hike.

somehiker,
Yes, I am familiar with the area. While we disagree with the dating of the stone maps cipher, I believe that you are dead on concerning what took place there. In fact, my last five hikes into the Superstitions all began there, as they naturally should.

What are your thoughts on the symbolism of the horse inscription?

I might have a little something to add to your already extensive file, but in order to appreciate it, you would have to put aside your beliefs on the placement of the stones... if only long enough to give it consideration. That is a tall order for someone like you who is obviously passionate about your ideas.

All journeys have their beginning.
Even spiritual ones.

 

[wrmickel1]

somehiker,
Yes, I am familiar with the area. While we disagree with the dating of the stone maps cipher, I believe that you are dead on concerning what took place there. In fact, my last five hikes into the Superstitions all began there, as they naturally should.

What are your thoughts on the symbolism of the horse inscription?

I might have a little something to add to your already extensive file, but in order to appreciate it, you would have to put aside your beliefs on the placement of the stones... if only long enough to give it consideration. That is a tall order for someone like you who is obviously passionate about your ideas.

All journeys have their beginning.
Even spiritual ones.

Hal, and the Canadian buzzard!

If your content on that area, you best be useing the stone cross maps, there the only one,s that pretane to that area.
Cause I,m most certain they were found just like he said they were, I'll bet cha both a trip to don,s pad for bitter taste of sock coffee and a sweet taste of that donkey he braggs about. (I think I,m in love) That he found them like he said.
Everyone changes paths in there lives what happened later in his, has no factor on the stone crosses.

Wrmickel1

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Wrmickel1: ya don't need to win no bet for some stinkin --oops--sock coffee, the mule is off limits.

Unfortunately, my only experience in the Superstitions, was while flying the old open cockpit Stearman with a foot of water in the cockpit from being caught by that Nimbus while flying down Lake Roosevelt on my way to Skyharbor.

Then, i was just grateful that I wasn't piled up in one of the side canyons of the Lake, so my knowledge of the LDM is basically just what I am picking up in here.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[somehiker]

"a sweet taste of that donkey he braggs about."

I might be reluctant to try the coffee Mick.
But I'm never late for the BBQ !!

 

[cactusjumper]

Things are getting a little low around here, when the talk turns to eating a man's mule.

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Apache soul food...
Makes great jerky too I'd bet.