The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

cactusjumper,
I thought that this was something worth reading, especially considering your post on who may have made the Tucson Artifacts.

"Despite its obscurity, probably no element on the periodic table has as colorful a history as antimony. Money, madness, poison, linguistics, charlatanism, sex—pretty much every theme that runs through the periodic table can be found in Element 51.


Let's start with the charlatan. In the early 1600s, a merchant named Johann Thölde divided his time three ways: running a salt mine in rural Germany, studying alchemy, and serving as secretary of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood, a society, one historian says, "founded on literary fraud and saturated with it." Totally in character, then, Thölde claimed one day he'd been in a local monastery when a storm swept in and a "miraculous thunderbolt" split open a marble pillar. Out tumbled a load of books, including The Triumphal Chariot of Antimony, an alchemical text."

View attachment 798742

"Thölde further claimed that a persecuted monk and secret alchemist named Basil Valentine had hidden the book in the pillar 150 years before. Amid its alchemical spells, the book explained how to prepare compounds of antimony, an element important to certain sects of alchemists—including, not coincidentally, Thölde's. The seeming ancientness and authority of the book probably boosted the prestige of the Rosicrucians in comparison with other groups of alchemists.

Even by 1710, Gottfried Leibniz, co-inventor of calculus, had declared the manuscripts obvious frauds, and most scholars today doubt that Thölde's Basil Valentine existed. Yet the doubts didn't stop Isaac Newton, a devoted alchemist and Leibniz's rival in inventing calculus, from becoming obsessed with antimony. Newton actually spent more time studying antimony than gravity, scribbling hundreds of pages about alchemy in his notebooks and (for God knows what reason) performing experiments like dissolving oak in vinegars laced with antimony.

Newton failed (at least through alchemy) to unlock the secrets of the universe, but the element remained popular with alchemists for centuries, a legacy that lingers today. Alchemists tended to anthropomorphize elements, projecting human characteristics onto them. For obscure reasons, many alchemists saw antimony as the essence of femininity, and a version of its alchemical symbol, ♀, still stands for "female" today.

Antimony has enjoyed wide use throughout history, and not just in alchemical experiments. Egyptian women used one form of antimony, stibium, as eyeliner (hence the symbol for antimony, Sb, even though neither letter appears in the element's name). Pills of the element became popular as a medicine in the 1700s, especially as a laxative, able to blast through the most compacted bowels. It was so good the chronically constipated would root through their excrement to retrieve the pill and reuse it later. Some lucky families passed down antimony laxatives from generation to generation.

Unfortunately, antimony purges the bowels so well partly because it's poison—the body wants to get rid of it. But these were the days in medicine of fighting fire with fire: Doctors believed the only way to cure a violent illness was with an equally violent reaction to medicine, and antimony's popularity grew. There's even been speculation recently that Mozart, a hypochondriac, died from taking too much antimony "medicine" for fever and internal aches."

Antimony: It might have killed Mozart. - Slate Magazine


 

G'morning peeps: It was posted ->"The next morning he studies the the stone and figured out from its symbols where to locate the other buried stones."
This is makes absolutely no sense.

This has bugged me from day one, since he apparantly 'never' figured out any of the other codings on the stones, why that particular part ???

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

cactusjumper,
I thought that this was something worth reading, especially considering your post on who may have made the Tucson Artifacts.

"Despite its obscurity, probably no element on the periodic table has as colorful a history as antimony. Money, madness, poison, linguistics, charlatanism, sex—pretty much every theme that runs through the periodic table can be found in Element 51....
The problem of the lead artifacts being hardened with antimony might expose them as modern hoaxes outright except for the fact that Arizona is blessed with mineable deposits of both ores (galena and stibnite), primarily in Yavapai County. And of course the Romans were familiar with these alloys and theoretically could have obtained them in Arizona had they been there in Pre Columbian times. I'm not implying that these facts support the artifacts' alleged provenance - just that they alone can't negate them.
 

[h=5]DMSO - Potentiation Therapy This is what Bilbry was selling. It is not approved by the FDA in the US. It is a cancer treatment in every other industrial nation. The US is the only country that refuses to approve the treatment by the FDA. Millions of Americans have left the US for this treatment since the 1970's. Bilbry plead guilty to the sale. He served his time and is now free and living in Central Arizona. I have no opinion on Bilbry and his stone cross theories either way. The cancer treatment and crosses are completely seperate issues. Many people living in America today owe their lives to DMSO-IPT therapy.

by R. Webster Kehr
Independent Cancer Research Foundation, Inc.[/h]CLINIC TREATMENT (and Theory): The DPT Protocol (i.e. DMSO Potentiation Therapy) uses DMSO to allow chemotherapy to "target" cancer cells (by opening the ports of the cancer cells). While this is a superb cancer treatment, orthodox medicine is not interested. The problem with this protocol is that less chemotherapy (probably 1/10th of a normal dose) is used because the chemotherapy targets the cancer cells. Thus, less profits are achieved by the medical and pharmaceutical industry.

There was a medical doctor in Georgia who had a cancer clinic that used DMSO and chemotherapy. In his clinic, he actually had the DMSO bind to very small doses of chemotherapy. With this protocol the chemotherapy was able to kill far more cancer cells and do far less damage to the non-cancerous cells!!
DMSO can bind to: adriamycin, vinblastine, 5-fluorouracil (i.e. 5-Fu) and cisplatin per the Oregon Health Sciences University.
I had a friend who went to this clinic as well as an IPT clinic (another alternative cancer treatment).
This person said the DMSO/chemotherapy protocol was significantly more effective than IPT.
Even though this medical doctor was using chemotherapy (which made the pharmaceutical companies happy), he was also curing cancer. The FDA shut him down.
Even though this protocol is not available in the United States, this article will discuss the theory behind this protocol and the theory of using DMSO for treating cancer (the Independent Cancer Research Foundation is researching the use of DMSO with substances other than chemotherapy).The book: Treating Cancer With Insulin Potentiation Therapy, by Ross A Hauser, M.D. and Marion A Hauser, M.S. provides more information about DMSO (e.g. pages 152-153).
 

G'morning peeps: It was posted ->"The next morning he studies the the stone and figured out from its symbols where to locate the other buried stones."
This is makes absolutely no sense.

This has bugged me from day one, since he apparantly 'never' figured out any of the other codings on the stones, why that particular part ???

Don Jose de La Mancha

In addition to Travis' wife Aleen and his Uncle Robert, there were only 5 people documented as having seen and discussed the stones with Travis.
Bob Bair, Bob Shultz, Ken and Pat Hainer, and Clarence Mitchell. Uncle Robert, Bair and Shultz were all interviewed by Bert Love and Mel Brower at the behest of Richard Peck, a well-to-do business man who had become very interested in the Stone Maps. The Hainers had exchanged correspondence with Bernice McGee who was also involved with Mitchell during his association with the stones. While the circumstances surrounding the discovery may vary some,depending on the source...eg:tobacco can vs knife and stopping to look for arrowheads vs an overheating car...they are consistent regarding the location at Queen Creek.
The first documented map of the discovery site was obtained by Peck on Jan 5/1965....

View attachment 5-1-65 map.bmp

Since both Travis and Aleen had passed away prior to Peck's investigation, and no other documents have surfaced detailing the finds, I consider the account given by the one person working with Travis at the time of the discovery of the Map Stones as closest to the truth. That being the one given by his Uncle Robert to Bert Love.

View attachment Love-Peck 4-12-65b.bmp

While I believe Travis was lucky to have found the H/P stone, with it's original location having been dug up during the grading of the bank for the original highway, thus leaving the stone mixed in with the dirt in the pile at the top of the bank, I also suspect he may have also been looking for some kind of marker, rather than relying entirely on the "formula" at the bottom of the Priest. As for not being able to locate anything else on the maps, he and his uncle like so many others, were apparently working with the idea that the stones were covered with "treasure symbols".

Regards:SH.
 

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The problem of the lead artifacts being hardened with antimony might expose them as modern hoaxes outright except for the fact that Arizona is blessed with mineable deposits of both ores (galena and stibnite), primarily in Yavapai County. And of course the Romans were familiar with these alloys and theoretically could have obtained them in Arizona had they been there in Pre Columbian times. I'm not implying that these facts support the artifacts' alleged provenance - just that they alone can't negate them.

The test results are merely another "nail in the coffin", IMO.
They were done at the request of those who are trying to justify their belief in what is essentially a fairy tale.
They hoped to prove a time frame which would add credibility to their claims of Calalus.
What would be the sense of such a group, having already made it as far as Yavapai County, to have stayed long enough to obtain enough ore and build smelters etc, to make the moulds and cast all of these objects and weapons, only to discard them and move on out ? Why have no other related and dateable lithics or other artifacts been found of a similar origin...anywhere ? Did these people show up naked, with no weapons or tools or even pottery vessels ? They would have been annihilated or dispersed as slaves by the resident native population before they had any chance to make this stuff. That's just the way I see it.

Regards:SH.
 

DMSO - Potentiation Therapy This is what Bilbry was selling. It is not approved by the FDA in the US. It is a cancer treatment in every other industrial nation. The US is the only country that refuses to approve the treatment by the FDA. Millions of Americans have left the US for this treatment since the 1970's. Bilbry plead guilty to the sale. He served his time and is now free and living in Central Arizona. I have no opinion on Bilbry and his stone cross theories either way. The cancer treatment and crosses are completely seperate issues. Many people living in America today owe their lives to DMSO-IPT therapy.

by R. Webster Kehr
Independent Cancer Research Foundation, Inc.


CLINIC TREATMENT (and Theory): The DPT Protocol (i.e. DMSO Potentiation Therapy) uses DMSO to allow chemotherapy to "target" cancer cells (by opening the ports of the cancer cells). While this is a superb cancer treatment, orthodox medicine is not interested. The problem with this protocol is that less chemotherapy (probably 1/10th of a normal dose) is used because the chemotherapy targets the cancer cells. Thus, less profits are achieved by the medical and pharmaceutical industry.

There was a medical doctor in Georgia who had a cancer clinic that used DMSO and chemotherapy. In his clinic, he actually had the DMSO bind to very small doses of chemotherapy. With this protocol the chemotherapy was able to kill far more cancer cells and do far less damage to the non-cancerous cells!!
DMSO can bind to: adriamycin, vinblastine, 5-fluorouracil (i.e. 5-Fu) and cisplatin per the Oregon Health Sciences University.
I had a friend who went to this clinic as well as an IPT clinic (another alternative cancer treatment).
This person said the DMSO/chemotherapy protocol was significantly more effective than IPT.
Even though this medical doctor was using chemotherapy (which made the pharmaceutical companies happy), he was also curing cancer. The FDA shut him down.
Even though this protocol is not available in the United States, this article will discuss the theory behind this protocol and the theory of using DMSO for treating cancer (the Independent Cancer Research Foundation is researching the use of DMSO with substances other than chemotherapy).The book: Treating Cancer With Insulin Potentiation Therapy, by Ross A Hauser, M.D. and Marion A Hauser, M.S. provides more information about DMSO (e.g. pages 152-153).

Kraig,

Of course you have no opinion. Can you tell us how Bilbrey was qualified to sell or advise cancer patients on the "cure"? I would guess that you are as qualified as he was.:dontknow: Can you tell us what happens if the patient uses DMSO, and their doctor uses the normal doses of chemotherpy.

On the other hand, you could be correct, and Bilbrey was a saint. On the other hand, he did get convicted and spend time in prison. I suppose he has paid for, likely, offering false hope to people with cancer. Tom, assuming he will talk to you, knows more about the case than just about anyone. He also knows a lot about Bilbrey's "artifacts".

Since Kraig has seen fit to offer some positive comments on DMSO, I would suggest that anyone looking for a miricle cure look into some of the negatives:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/541791-the-harmful-side-effects-of-dmso-dimethyl/

The first question that comes to mind. in Bilbrey's case is, was he selling Industrial grade DMSO?:dontknow:

Joe Ribaudo
 

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G'morning peeps: It was posted ->"The next morning he studies the the stone and figured out from its symbols where to locate the other buried stones."
This is makes absolutely no sense.

This has bugged me from day one, since he apparantly 'never' figured out any of the other codings on the stones, why that particular part ???

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hola Don Jose,

This is no cake walk like the Tayopa.:occasion15::walk::laughing7: This one is not just covered with dirt, it is covered with one lie after another.

Why that particular part? Because it was conveniently next to the priest. However if Travis made the statement, it was just to impress them. I am sure someone else came up with that idea, as you can clearly see that it wouldn't tell you to dig say, 60 yards away. There is another story where Travis looked through a hole in a cactus, and found where to dig up the other stones. This is also a lie. It is the priest who shows that it is just one of 4 stones, and tell you to look for the others in the same hole.

What is giving you trouble with the PSM's article written by Bernice, and Jack McGee? The lies maybe? Is it that you are trying to follow his finds maybe? Those are just their ideas, they have nothing to do with the true meanings of the stones.

Before the Wilderness Act, anyone could have benefited from the stone maps, as long as he or she could understand it.

Here you go, I am out of mezcal, but the coffeepot is full. :coffee2::coffee2:

Homar
 

Blind Bowman wrote :

Kraig,

Of course you have no opinion. Can you tell us how Bilbrey was qualified to sell or advise cancer patients on the "cure"? I would guess that you are as qualified as he was.
dontknow.gif
Can you tell us what happens if the patient uses DMSO, and their doctor uses the normal doses of chemotherpy.

On the other hand, you could be correct, and Bilbrey was a saint. On the other hand, he did get convicted and spend time in prison. I suppose he has paid for, likely, offering false hope to people with cancer. Tom, assuming he will talk to you, knows more about the case than just about anyone. He also knows a lot about Bilbrey's "artifacts".

Since Kraig has seen fit to offer some positive comments on DMSO, I would suggest that anyone looking for a miricle cure look into some of the negatives:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/54...dmso-dimethyl/

The first question that comes to mind. in Bilbrey's case is, was he selling Industrial grade DMSO?
dontknow.gif


Joe Ribaudo

Blind Bowman,

Never said Bilbry was a saint. Many doctors also lost their liscence either selling the same thing Bilbry did, or advising their patients how to administer the drug.
Every cancer fighting drug is harmful to the human body, they kill cells, all cells in one way or the other. DMSO is no better or worse than any used today.
You can still buy DMSO today, just under a different label.
The reason DMSO is not approved is because it is a cheap alternative to the big drug company chemotherapies and they cannot make the kind of money as with approved methods.
Also, DMSO can be administered by the patient with a prescription. Again a huge financial loss for drug companies and for profit hospitals.
I'm not supporting or attacking DMSO, nor supporting or attacking Bilbry, just giving the facts.
I don't know who Tom is ?

Three people liked my post. Zero liked yours BlindBowman.

Those three people understood the post for what it is. You have zero understanding due to some serious anger management issues.

Azhiker
 

[TABLE="class: tablebg"]
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[TD="class: row1, align: center"]Jim Hatt
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[TD="class: row1"]

[TD="class: gensmall"] Post subject: Re: THE STORY OF THE STONE CROSSES
Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:59 pm
[/TD]
[/TD]
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[TD="class: profile row1"][/TD]
[TD="class: row1"]
Joe,

The topic here is the stone crosses themselves. Not the trials and tribulations of Michael Bilbrey. That subject has already been covered to a conclusion in another discussion.

Everyone knows and agrees that Michael was convicted and served time for selling some kind of "Snake Oil". Having never heard his side of that story, I reserve judgment on the character of the man himself, and allow for the possibility that he too may have been a victim of this crime. It IS possible that he was sucked into believing that his "Cure" worked. That would make him "Stupid" to say the least, but if so, he has certainly paid for his stupidity.

He served his time for his crime (which by the way had nothing to do with the stone crosses) and is trying to put the matter behind him.

If you want to totally dismiss the stone crosses because of Bilbrey's connection with them. That's fine. Just say so and be done with it.

Once should be enough.

I will not allow you to turn this discussion into a constant Crucifixion of Michael Bilbrey.

I have a copy of the audio tape you keep referring to and have had it for many years. I read many things in it differently than you do. That's how bias works. No doubt everyone that listens to it will arrive at their own unique conclusions about it.

I have no desire to permanently ban you from this site. I think you have a lot to offer, in the way of historical knowledge on some of the subjects being discussed here, but if you are not going to participate in that spirit I will.

I believe the Stone Crosses are Authentic and fabricated by the Jesuit Order.

You believe they are Fakes and fabricated by Michael Bilbrey.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.

We can either agree to disagree on that subject, and move on to something else, or you can go post somewhere else.

Jim Hatt

[/TD]
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Well said Jim. Gone but not forgotten. You hit the "nail" on the head with your comments.

Azhiker
 

:BangHead::dontknow:

"The reason DMSO is not approved is because it is a cheap alternative to the big drug company chemotherapies and they cannot make the kind of money as with approved methods."

And is that your professional opinion?

Maybe those folks don't like my post, like you, but as long as folks bring up Bilbrey and his artifacts, I will give my opinion of him and what kind of man he was. I will give him this......He never claimed to be a Vietnam war hero with three purple hearts, nor to have grown up on the San Carlos Apache Reservation.
Of course it's always possible I'm wrong about who you really are.

Joe Ribaudo.....Still signing my real name to my posts.
 

The test results are merely another "nail in the coffin", IMO.
They were done at the request of those who are trying to justify their belief in what is essentially a fairy tale.
They hoped to prove a time frame which would add credibility to their claims of Calalus.
What would be the sense of such a group, having already made it as far as Yavapai County, to have stayed long enough to obtain enough ore and build smelters etc, to make the moulds and cast all of these objects and weapons, only to discard them and move on out ? Why have no other related and dateable lithics or other artifacts been found of a similar origin...anywhere ? Did these people show up naked, with no weapons or tools or even pottery vessels ? They would have been annihilated or dispersed as slaves by the resident native population before they had any chance to make this stuff. That's just the way I see it.

Regards:SH.

The Calalus allegations are unsupportable at this time due to a lack of evidence, other than the attempt to tie them to the artifacts.

The artifacts themselves are evidence, ie they exist and their provenance was reasonably documented. They seem to exhibit characteristics that are contrary to accepted history, but no additional physical or documentary evidence has yet surfaced to consider. Your questions merely confirm this. The forensic evidence surrounding the artifacts and their discovery is all that's available to a prudent observer and all that can be considered at this time.

Regarding the evidence that has surfaced, ie the artifacts, my only point is this: Arizona possesses mineable deposits of lead and antimony.
 

:BangHead::dontknow:

"The reason DMSO is not approved is because it is a cheap alternative to the big drug company chemotherapies and they cannot make the kind of money as with approved methods."

And is that your professional opinion?

Maybe those folks don't like my post, like you, but as long as folks bring up Bilbrey and his artifacts, I will give my opinion of him and what kind of man he was. I will give him this......He never claimed to be a Vietnam war hero with three purple hearts, nor to have grown up on the San Carlos Apache Reservation.
Of course it's always possible I'm wrong about who you really are.

Joe Ribaudo.....Still signing my real name to my posts.


DMSO cancer treatment is approved in every industrial nation in the world except the United States. Millions of Americans have gone to Canada, Mexico and Europe for DMSO treatment. That pretty well ends the argument.

And yes, you have the wrong person, which merely shows the sad condition of your mental state. Jim Hatt was right on the money with you.

Azhiker
 

.Those.webpSigh, the main purpose of DMSO is it's ability to carry other chemicals or minerals - in a proper solution - into the body, might be considered as a entryless / needle less / jetless injection. Yes, it does work, & well. according to available records, but then none so far are 100 %. The best is the Cesium Chloride treatment hitting around 80+ %. With the AMA hitting around 5 - 10 %.

Ya takes yer choice and go for a single throw of life's dice. Me, I chose Cesium Chloriide and 10 years later, am still alive, wth absolutely no sign of cancer in any form, despite having been given a 2-4 month max prognosis and am now pestering everyone.

Hush Homar, peeps.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Yes this was me before, but not now. Unfortunately due to not enough information then, and family pressure, I allowed a radical neck disection which left my right shoulder without support and now droops. Although Cactus Joe has accused me of watching too many porn shows, tain't true honest. sigh.
 

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The problem of the lead artifacts being hardened with antimony might expose them as modern hoaxes outright except for the fact that Arizona is blessed with mineable deposits of both ores (galena and stibnite), primarily in Yavapai County. And of course the Romans were familiar with these alloys and theoretically could have obtained them in Arizona had they been there in Pre Columbian times. I'm not implying that these facts support the artifacts' alleged provenance - just that they alone can't negate them.

There must be a report on Roman lead artifacts from the same period somewhere. A similar level of antimony might give the artifacts some legs.

"Antimony in the battery grid was 11% in the 1930's, down to 7% by 1947.... the reduced antimony content reduced terminal corrosion plus increased battery life".
 

There must be a report on Roman lead artifacts from the same period somewhere. A similar level of antimony might give the artifacts some legs.

"Antimony in the battery grid was 11% in the 1930's, down to 7% by 1947.... the reduced antimony content reduced terminal corrosion plus increased battery life".

Hal,

Once you really dig into the Tucson artifacts,:D it will become obvious that they are fakes. Too much evidence to deny it. Here is just one argument:

"The U.S. Geological Survey map and the work by geologist James Quinlan place the artifact site on Pleistocene deposits. Anything found under the surface would have to be from 10,000 to 2,000,000 years old."

That's certainly well beyond the age claimed for the artifacts.

I admit it's been an interesting story, but there is no verifiable truth in it, beyond the artifacts themselves.

Good luck,

Joe
 

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DMSO cancer treatment is approved in every industrial nation in the world except the United States. Millions of Americans have gone to Canada, Mexico and Europe for DMSO treatment. That pretty well ends the argument.

And yes, you have the wrong person, which merely shows the sad condition of your mental state. Jim Hatt was right on the money with you.

Azhiker

Kraig,

Yes it's true that many Americans go to other countries trying to find cures for their cancer. That's really not the salient point, is it? What's important is how many get cured. Many Canadians come to the USA for their treatments. Many others will buy their miracle cures from folks like Bilbrey.

Jim was not "on the money" with me. On the other hand, I had him figured out when he first made contact with me back in 2002. I never told one lie about Jim Hatt. My mental state may very well be sad, but I'm not ashamed to sign my name to my posts, and I don't have to make up a phony history of my life. Now that's truly sad.

I have always been impressed with your knowledge of local history and the Apache Indians.
Can you tell me what this gift is and what it means:



Joe Ribaudo
 

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Hal,

Once you really dig into the Tucson artifacts,:D it will become obvious that they are fakes. Too much evidence to deny it. Here is just one argument:

"The U.S. Geological Survey map and the work by geologist James Quinlan place the artifact site on Pleistocene deposits. Anything found under the surface would have to be from 10,000 to 2,000,000 years old."

That's certainly well beyond the age claimed for the artifacts.

I admit it's been an interesting story, but there is no verifiable truth in it, beyond the artifacts themselves.

Good luck,

Joe

cactusjumper,
I have no need to dig into the artifacts.... yet. My only concern was a possible connection to the person I believe made the stones. That connection is circumstantial at best.... if they were discovered around 1924. I have not been able to place Mr. X in the area before 1926.

I just find it amusing that antimony is the rope used to hang the entire theory. Again:

"Despite its obscurity, probably no element on the periodic table has as colorful a history as antimony. Money, madness, poison, linguistics, charlatanism, sex—pretty much every theme that runs through the periodic table can be found in Element 51."



...and from your post #122 in "The Book Club":
"Skupin, at the suggestion of George F. Carter, corresponded with Julian D. Hayden regarding the Tuscon artifacts. Hayden replied that he remembered when the finds were made and had kept up with the situation. He described how he believed the artifacts were inserted from the side under layers of undis- turbed caliche. He noted that there was little or no corrosion on the lead artifacts, but lead-sheathed phone cables placed in Tucson caliche tend to corrode badly even in a short period of time. Further, the caliche layer into which the objects were inserted dated to a period 9,000-24,000 years ago."

Hayden was quite a character... no? He has also written a few books worth reading.


 

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