The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Hal Croves]

Hal it's interesting to watch as you work this out and adapt as you gain more information.

I will take that as a compliment. My mistake was believing that men/women were capable of doing more than history records. My placement of the stones has not changed since day one, but I most certainly have adapted my thinking of "who" thanks to the education I received here on TN. I tried to ID the artist based on a date that is simply impossible. Jesuits, Acosta, Freemasons, the list of possibilities is endless until you see the stones for what they are. Modern.
I am better now.

Most officers from the time period had other skills. Had to so they could get by. You name the skill and you could find one who could handle it. But the skills were not all the same. It depended on what they did for a living before becoming a officer. I've been leaning toward the map stones being found and the horse and priest stone carved later. Perhaps to show things found while using the map stones.

IMO - That could not be possible as they use the same method of encryption; a method not available before a specific date.

Did your suspect enjoy stone carving at some time in his life?

As he has been dead for some time it would be difficult to know, but I can tell you that the arts played an important role in this persons life. He was a novice artist, but was involved to a great extent in the arts.

Wandering in the mountains you see all kinds of rock formations that look like things. The priest and horse map could have been personal maps using these formations as reference points. Why in stone.

Stone = preservation. He was preserving what he had learned.

Well we all have our little kinks. I was shown some the other day carved in wood. Depends on what your into. Stone, wood or paper. Even a tattoo on your wife's butt. Well not there. If she runs off someone else end up with your map.

A tattoo in that place would be difficult for most men to read after a few short but fruitful years. Better off keeping it in stone.

 

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[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hal,

You once claimed that the PSM's were Jesuit made, and that you had proof. Now you don't believe that any Jesuit made the stones. That's ok, you are allowed to change your mind, but what happened to the proof?

Now you do not believe that they could have been made before, the early 1930's, and you are making a promise, without any proof, based just on a belief?

Homar

coazon de oro,
My "proof" was and still is my unchanged placement of the stones. I have no doubt that it is correct. At first, I had to rationalize who could have made the stones using a creation date of 1847. Technically, the Jesuits might very well have been able to pull it off as members of the society were instrumental in the development of balloon flight and photography. It was possible, but as I learned not practical. And what about Freemasons in the military? Again, possible, but not quite practical. Now, advance to that period between the late 1920's and the discovery date. We know that it was absolutely possible and even practical... for the right person. But because of the method of encryption and the use of the system of treasure symbols and the need for an extensive knowledge of the Superstitions, very few people could have accomplished it.

Proof is something we all want. But in reality, there is only circumstantial proof.

My promise is this. Make a list of all the possible skills and traits needed to create the stone map cipher. When you feel that list is substantial enough, send it to me and I will forward to you in confidence one name and his specific connection to each of the items on your list. After you have had time to think about it, I would not mind if you shared your thoughts... either way without posting the name. I want people to come to it on their own terms using reason.

Remember. Once the name is known, and once a placement is accepted, there will be many, many hours left trying to understand the actual encrypted instructions.

I am sorry to hear about your accident.




I have been reading about the Tucson Artifacts. Amazing how things like these seem to be found not far from modern road. Do these roads follow ancient trails, or are roadways just a convenient place to plant a discovery?

 

[sgtfda]

Hal are you still thinking the stone area was observed from above then carved? Thus your date change.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal are you still thinking the stone area was observed from above then carved? Thus your date change.

Absolutely. My theory regarding "who" has always been influenced by the date, not how the stones are read. One could study the stones for a life time and never place them... look at the list of published attempts and how many people have been broken over these stones. The stones are an overlay, designed to be used with an aerial photograph. That I am certain. People are looking for a horse, a witch like figure and a heart, but they do not exist. They never did. They existed only in the eyes of the artist, but specific topographic features in the landscape match specific lines in these figures. The priests(?) hat, the horses right ear, the hilt of the knife. These are the registration markers. They provide placement and scale.

My solution leads to very real places that have been manipulated by human hands. Some are marked with symbols carved into the earth, just like the ones at the entrance to Peters Canyon. By the way, I still am looking for an explanation of these symbols. The TNF believes that they are a product of the imagination. I don't agree.

I have not excavated any of these sites for the obvious reasons, so I do not know if the actual sites are the treasure, or if the sites conceal something of value. I honestly do not know. Perhaps in the fall I will have a answer.


Look at these two images. No distorting the overlay to fit the landscape. Everything is perfectly scaled and things do line up 100%. Repeate this experiment for yourself using Google Earth or an aerial photograph. See what you end up with. Once you convince yourself that this is the correct method you must come to the conclusion that they are modern. Try to recreate my overlay and post your results.... then we can have a conversation about the other stones.

View attachment 796517

View attachment 796518


​

 

[Ellie Baba]

Good work Hal,

Now we are finally moving to the same page and depository area. The Stone Maps (the Priest Map) was designed to fit this exact location!

Ellie B

 

[coazon de oro]

coazon de oro,
My "proof" was and still is my unchanged placement of the stones. I have no doubt that it is correct. At first, I had to rationalize who could have made the stones using a creation date of 1847. Technically, the Jesuits might very well have been able to pull it off as members of the society were instrumental in the development of balloon flight and photography. It was possible, but as I learned not practical. And what about Freemasons in the military? Again, possible, but not quite practical. Now, advance to that period between the late 1920's and the discovery date. We know that it was absolutely possible and even practical... for the right person. But because of the method of encryption and the use of the system of treasure symbols and the need for an extensive knowledge of the Superstitions, very few people could have accomplished it.

Proof is something we all want. But in reality, there is only circumstantial proof.

My promise is this. Make a list of all the possible skills and traits needed to create the stone map cipher. When you feel that list is substantial enough, send it to me and I will forward to you in confidence one name and his specific connection to each of the items on your list. After you have had time to think about it, I would not mind if you shared your thoughts... either way without posting the name. I want people to come to it on their own terms using reason.

Remember. Once the name is known, and once a placement is accepted, there will be many, many hours left trying to understand the actual encrypted instructions.

I am sorry to hear about your accident.




I have been reading about the Tucson Artifacts. Amazing how things like these seem to be found not far from modern road. Do these roads follow ancient trails, or are roadways just a convenient place to plant a discovery?

Howdy Hal,

I thanks for your concern, and for the clarification of your promise.

In my opinion, no extensive knowledge of the Superstitions was needed to create the stones. Having seen what I believe to be the source of the stones, no milling is required, if they wanted a smoother surface, they could just rub the slabs together. The only skill required would be stone engraving, but the stones are far from being a work of art like the Mayas could create. One basic skill does not make a list.

The stones came close to being lost to civilization, makes one wonder how many things have been covered with asphalt, or concrete.

Homar

 

[Ellie Baba]

Howdy Hal,

I thanks for your concern, and for the clarification of your promise.

In my opinion, no extensive knowledge of the Superstitions was needed to create the stones (you have no idea). Having seen what I believe to be the source of the stones, no milling is required, if they wanted a smoother surface, they could just rub the slabs together. The only skill required would be stone engraving, but the stones are far from being a work of art like the Mayas could create. One basic skill does not make a list.

The stones came close to being lost to civilization, makes one wonder how many things have been covered with asphalt, or concrete.

Homar

Hi Homar,

An extensive knowledge of the Superstitions was/is required to solve the Stone Maps, and that's not including Casa Grande, Coolidge, Florence, Florence Junction, Adamsville, Picket Post, Superior, Winkleman, Kearney, Apache Junction, Gold Canyon, Globe, Livingston and the list goes on. You must include the Gila and Salt Rivers, Queen Creek and many other streams and washes. Bob Brewer and I spent six continuous weeks exploring just the horses head. We have another year of exploration before his book was published. I have spent thousands of hours of hiking all over the area and then some.

Each and every mark on the Stone Maps can be found in the depository area. I have been to most of them.

The Stone Maps are incomplete without the other historic maps, once put together they are amazing. Hal is doing a great job and he has a way to go.

Homar, we can drive or ATV to many of the pertinent sites. Plan a trip someday.

Ellie B

 

[sgtfda]

Hal if you think the stones are modern what is the target of the maps. Do the early arial photographs of the area show the same thing as GE? Or do you think the area was observed from a aircraft? In your opinion was a drawing or photo used as a reference for the carving? Why go through all that trouble? Why not just retrieve the target. Do you feel this is a group deposit that Is meant to remain we're it is hidden. Why then place the stones were it is said they were found. If they were not found as Tumlinson stated what was he doing with them? Why did the group not take action after the stone recovery was announced?

 

[somehiker]

"I have been reading about the Tucson Artifacts. Amazing how things like these seem to be found not far from modern road. Do these roads follow ancient trails, or are roadways just a convenient place to plant a discovery?"

Hal:
I had read your original post just before I left for work this morning, but didn't have time to make a reply.
Thought I might do so when I returned home, since I was wondering if this was the direction in which you were headed.
Your edits answer that question for me. Was one of the folks you had mentioned being in contact with, Ben Davis by chance ?
He does have some interesting ideas, to say the least.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Hal if you think the stones are modern what is the target of the maps. Do the early arial photographs of the area show the same thing as GE? Or do you think the area was observed from a aircraft? In your opinion was a drawing or photo used as a reference for the carving? Why go through all that trouble? Why not just retrieve the target. Do you feel this is a group deposit that Is meant to remain we're it is hidden. Why then place the stones were it is said they were found. If they were not found as Tumlinson stated what was he doing with them? Why did the group not take action after the stone recovery was announced?

Good questions Frank.
One I have had for some time is....if this group had taken aerial photographs, why bother to transfer them to stone. Why not just mark the salient points on the photos or copies of themselves ? If they then found a good reason to bury them, and longevity was a consideration, why not bury them in a sealed container made of any of the modern materials available at that time ?

Regards:Wayne

 

[somehiker]

Of course, anything's possible, but if this was a secret mission having something to do with gold in the Superstitions, why officially acknowledge it at all? If the stones were part of the story and hastily buried by the padres in retreat, why not return later and retrieve them? Unfortunately, this theory begs Tumlinson's allegations regarding the stones' provenance, which ought to trouble a prudent man. Tumlinson cannot be considered credible, IMO.

I had been working on a longer reply, complete with a number of references, but have decided to make it a topic of it's own at a later date.
Instead, I will answer your comments with an abbreviated version...hope you don't mind.

Don Agustin Vildosola, appointed Governor of Sonora in 1741 had, at the request of the Jesuits, issued an order allowing them to cross the Gila for the purpose of converting the Moqui.
In such circumstances, reports were expected to be made.
Such a report would explain the loss of a member of the military escort ( which due to cutbacks...sound familiar?... was limited to no more than six), his effects, and the animals and any heavy cargo during the attempt.
It would also discourage any others from following the same trail, especially if something valuable had been cached at the campsite near/adjacent to the trail.

With the turmoil and lack of continued support from the Pima, it's possible that a decision was made to leave the stones where they were and simply make a map or derrotero indicating where they could be found . I believe this derrotero/map/waybill is what Tumlinson used to locate the stones. I have seen nothing within all the documents gathered re: Tumlinson which would cause me to question his credibility or his integrity. If some wish to rely on "heck, I was there" references to Tumlinson or his history, they may of course do so,and be the poorer for it IMO.

Regards:SH.

 

[Springfield]

Hal if you think the stones are modern what is the target of the maps. Do the early arial photographs of the area show the same thing as GE? Or do you think the area was observed from a aircraft? In your opinion was a drawing or photo used as a reference for the carving? Why go through all that trouble? Why not just retrieve the target. Do you feel this is a group deposit that Is meant to remain we're it is hidden. Why then place the stones were it is said they were found. If they were not found as Tumlinson stated what was he doing with them? Why did the group not take action after the stone recovery was announced?

All good points, and the two highlighted questions the most salient. The first, "Why do the valuables remain hidden?", is the key to the entire mystery, and a question nobody, not even the acknowledged top sleuths in the field, can answer. It's the same with a dozen or a hundred other less-publicized but related sites. It's a secret, and all attempts to reconcile it are speculative. As my late friend JW observed, "When the time comes, the answer to this question will likely be self-evident."

Your second question, "What's up with these stones?", has at least two possible answers for us mortals, IMO. First, they are a diversion away from the target using a circular argument, or more likely, a spiral. Second, despite their disinformation, discovering their subtleties requires a higher awareness in the pilgrim. JW also postulated that the target might not be gold, but the treasure of a higher awareness that the quest demands.

Of course, the whole thing may also be a very clever hoax that's fooled all the experts. There was a lot of disappointment that day in Adamsville; maybe the joke was on those guys.

 

[sgtfda]

As time marches on the more clouded the issues become. The target could have been collected years ago. The search continues by others looking for something long gone. Or perhaps not.

 

[Springfield]

I had been working on a longer reply, complete with a number of references, but have decided to make it a topic of it's own at a later date.
Instead, I will answer your comments with an abbreviated version...hope you don't mind.

Don Agustin Vildosola, appointed Governor of Sonora in 1741 had, at the request of the Jesuits, issued an order allowing them to cross the Gila for the purpose of converting the Moqui.
In such circumstances, reports were expected to be made.
Such a report would explain the loss of a member of the military escort ( which due to cutbacks...sound familiar?... was limited to no more than six), his effects, and the animals and any heavy cargo during the attempt.
It would also discourage any others from following the same trail, especially if something valuable had been cached at the campsite near/adjacent to the trail.

With the turmoil and lack of continued support from the Pima, it's possible that a decision was made to leave the stones where they were and simply make a map or derrotero indicating where they could be found . I believe this derrotero/map/waybill is what Tumlinson used to locate the stones. I have seen nothing within all the documents gathered re: Tumlinson which would cause me to question his credibility or his integrity. If some wish to rely on "heck, I was there" references to Tumlinson or his history, they may of course do so,and be the poorer for it IMO.

Regards:SH.

I understand your theory, but so far I find it a little thin. Of course, you could be correct, but I guess I'd have to know more about the 'Indian trail' to understand how Keller would have justified his choice of using it instead of the better-known Hopi route to Vildosola.

The stones. They always feel like a square peg in a round hole no matter how ardently they're tied to 'Spanish gold'. I guess the whole Tumlinson connection sullies them for me: it'd be better if Dobie's name hadn't surfaced.

 

[Ellie Baba]

Horse's Head

EB

You wrote " Bob Brewer and I spent six continuous weeks exploring just the horses head "

You can post a picture of the horses head ?

And you wrote again " Now we are finally moving to the same page and depository area. The Stone Maps (the Priest Map) was designed to fit this exact location "

From this location you have a good view to LDM , but must use binoculars .

Marius

Hi Marius,

Below is the outline of El Cobollo de Santa Fe.




We covered the whole outline gathering as much information as we could.

Later,

Ellie B

 

[coazon de oro]

Hi Homar,

An extensive knowledge of the Superstitions was/is required to solve the Stone Maps, and that's not including Casa Grande, Coolidge, Florence, Florence Junction, Adamsville, Picket Post, Superior, Winkleman, Kearney, Apache Junction, Gold Canyon, Globe, Livingston and the list goes on. You must include the Gila and Salt Rivers, Queen Creek and many other streams and washes. Bob Brewer and I spent six continuous weeks exploring just the horses head. We have another year of exploration before his book was published. I have spent thousands of hours of hiking all over the area and then some.

Each and every mark on the Stone Maps can be found in the depository area. I have been to most of them.

The Stone Maps are incomplete without the other historic maps, once put together they are amazing. Hal is doing a great job and he has a way to go.

Homar, we can drive or ATV to many of the pertinent sites. Plan a trip someday.

Ellie B

Howdy Ellie B.,

If I had no idea, I wouldn't have made the statement.

The creator of the stone maps only had to know his area of the Superstitions. He did not have to know about all the different horses, horse parts, hearts, priests, springs, caves, trails, empty holes, signs, numbers, and every other worthless clue that everyone has found.

Look at Mr. Forrest Fenn's treasure, relatively new compared to the PSM's. Look at all the different places people have found where the clues line up. Mr. Fenn didn't have to know about all these different places to write his waybill, did he.

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Marius,

Below is the outline of El Cobollo de Santa Fe.


View attachment 796760

We covered the whole outline gathering as much information as we could.

Later,

Ellie B

Ellie,

You believe these two images are a match?

Thanks Joe

 

[Ellie Baba]

All good points, and the two highlighted questions the most salient. The first, "Why do the valuables remain hidden?",(where else would you put them?) is the key to the entire mystery, and a question nobody, not even the acknowledged top sleuths in the field, can answer (no one likes the answer). It's the same with a dozen or a hundred other less-publicized but related sites. It's a secret, and all attempts to reconcile it are speculative. As my late friend JW observed, "When the time comes, the answer to this question will likely be self-evident." That day is currently on the horizon.

Your second question, "What's up with these stones?", has at least two possible answers for us mortals, IMO. First, they are a diversion away from the target (yes) using a circular argument, or more likely, a spiral. No. Second, despite their disinformation, discovering their subtleties requires a higher awareness in the pilgrim. Yes, once again no one likes the answers. JW also postulated that the target might not be gold (yes, there's gold, jewels, etc., like Victorio Peak) but the treasure of a higher awareness that the quest demands (and that is true).

Of course, the whole thing may also be a very clever hoax that's fooled all the experts. There was a lot of disappointment that day in Adamsville (yes); maybe the joke was on those guys.

Hi All,

Not a single one of us that was there the whole week would have exchanged places with anyone. Adamsville is one of the reasons I have worked these damned maps! The Stone Maps directed us to this place to find a map, not a treasure. We all realized that truth later on. What we found in those holes blew us all away, the clues were placed three feet down from each other until reaching our target depth of 33 feet. Read Brewer's book to find more information of what we found in these three holes the sizes of basements. We started with a backhoe and ended up with a CAT excavator. What an exciting experience that we still talk about when we see one another. Other then that we do not talk about it much. One thing I can say is we now know where it is, its not there, but somewhere else. The disappointment was just a mist.

Later,

Ellie Baba

 

[Ellie Baba]

Ellie,

You believe these two images are a match? Not an exact perfect match. The person who drew the horse did not know that this horse existed on the USGS map.

Thanks Joe

Hi Joe,

Yes, I go into great detail documenting the techniques, mathematics, signs, symbols and the complete process in my book.


Ellie B

 

[Ellie Baba]

Good questions Frank.
One I have had for some time is....if this group had taken aerial photographs, why bother to transfer them to stone. Why not just mark the salient points on the photos or copies of themselves ? If they then found a good reason to bury them, and longevity was a consideration, why not bury them in a sealed container made of any of the modern materials available at that time ?

Regards:Wayne

The answer is simple Wayne,

No one has been able to decipher the Stone Maps; not Tumlinson, Travis, or any one else. They did not have all of the missing parts, only a few of them. The Stone Maps were placed in the grave awaiting resurrection. Who ever found them had the means and methods to locate the exact positions of the Stone Maps, they were not accidentally found. Here is a clue, well two; the Florence Junction airport and Elephant Butte. Oh, and you have to know what your number values define. It is so exact a science it takes so many people in trained and well educated professions that one person cannot understand the maps. Treasure hunters will not share their secrets and in the long run they just fail and die. Not me and mine. Excuse my grammar, I am just typing away.

Later,

Ellie B