The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[somehiker]

Hal:
The originals were not modern, but all the copies are.
This sounds as if you have definitive proof as to their date of fabrication. Is that base on anything more than your theory?

Believing, as I do, that the Stone Crosses and (original) Stone Maps are all authentic and apply to the same area, my theory (as developed so far) would infer the location was first used prior to 1751, if that which is shown on the "Tesoro" Stone Cross is indeed a year, perhaps even before 1743, when Fr. Keller's expedition was raided by Apaches while enroute to the Moqui villages.

View attachment Jacobo Sedelmayr Keller's Journey.bmp
Her is Kino's map,published in 1701, which would have been used by Keller IMO.

View attachment Fr. Eusebio Kino Paris 1701 sm1.bmp

And a crop which shows the Moqui area toward which the expedition was headed.

View attachment Fr. Eusebio Kino Paris 1701sm.bmp

I believe it possible, as I have explained in greater length in a previous discussion, that the stones may have been cached at the QC site when the expedition lost it's animals and was forced to return to the Gila. Also that the stated purpose of the expedition may have been a "cover story" for what was in fact a trip undertaken with two goals. One...transport of a shipment of valuables to the "vaults" site. Two...to place the stones ( we have seen) in locations closer to and in the area of the "vaults" themselves.

It is also possible, with knowledge of how detrimental the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 to both the Catholic church and it's Spanish colonists in New Mexico, that some kind of strategy was devised to safeguard any surplus wealth belonging to the church and it's patrons. If so, might some group comprised of enterprising and technically adept people, organized and lead first by Franciscans and later Jesuits (after they were assigned to Pimeria Alta) have chosen a site within the Sups as suitable for construction of an early version of Fort Knox ? Could such a strategy, if feasable, have been implemented between 1692 and 1700, when the Spansh regained full control of the region ? Could some manner of organized and secretive tax avoidance scheme have been part of the strategy as well ?
These are just a few of the questions I am working on, for which even circumstantial evidence might might lead somewhere.
One of the reasons for my looking into the circumstances of the Mexican-American War is the possibility or hunch that the location was last used for a cache site during the conflict.
Clouded by the passage of time and obscured by secrecy, many of the answers to what transpired within the peaks of the Superstition Mountains during the period from 1700-1847 may never be known. But I do enjoy the search and it's challenges.

Regards:SH.

 

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[somehiker]

Exactly.

I don't claim to know all that much about minerals and rocks, but the two samples look identical. If your sample was at one time a solid material, crushed and mixed into a cement like substance, then why is the darker mineral (suspended in your sample) distributed so much like the darker mineral in my common tuff?

I would think that during the crushing and then during the mixing, the mineral in your sample would have a much different pattern of distribution. Clustering, swirls... anything to suggest a re-mixing. Again, I know very little about rocks, but it seems like your plug might be natural. Forgive me if I am overlooking something obvious.

View attachment 795674
Your Sample - Overexposed

View attachment 795675
My Sample - Common Tuff
​

I only saved this as a example of what not to pack out of the Superstitions by the pound. Still, I have a bunch of it in my grill and it holds heat well. Who said learning was easy.

Hal:

The chip is not from the plug. It's from another location about 300 yds away.
Although the flash may have brightened the resulting photos a bit, it did not change the colours of the sample.
The sample is a pure white, with a very thin brown coating .
I've dulled the sharp end of my hammer many times on rock of all kinds out there these last 16 years and have a fair amount of experience with volcanic tuff.
Hard to get away from it, since it probably covers more than 95% of the total surface area.
Good to know that if you happen to wander through this area though, that your not likely to see anything worthy of a closer look.
In fact, that is the basis for my thoughts about why I seem to be the first person to see any connection between the Stone Maps and this particular location. Seems obvious to both Frank and I....it's what they intended when they did what they did.
To make it all look as natural as possible.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Yes, but try to crush this material and remix it into something similar. It will NOT be the same material even if texture and color are similar.

That's why, when you look closer, you can see a difference....

 

[somehiker]

What better way to cover a hole than to use the materials the cave is made of. Otherwise it would stand out.

The cave is a different situation, with an assortment of various kinds and sizes of rock and a lot of what looks like common mud forming the plug.
Larger rocks to the bottom, smaller toward the top. Until the transition between plug and ceiling, where all the rock above is big and jagged.
No doubt anyone removing the plug would be in danger of what is above. The mud is hard enough to make sparks fly when struck.

 

[Springfield]

...


And a crop which shows the Moqui area toward which the expedition was headed.

View attachment 795808

I believe it possible, as I have explained in greater length in a previous discussion, that the stones may have been cached at the QC site when the expedition lost it's animals and was forced to return to the Gila. ......

Wouldn't the route from the Gila to Hopi (Moqui) and back have followed the Verde River (Rio Azul)? How would they have arrived at the alleged stones 'discovery point' at Queen Creek? Seems too far east.

 

[Hal Croves]

Believing, as I do, that the Stone Crosses and (original) Stone Maps are all authentic and apply to the same area, my theory (as developed so far) would infer the location was first used prior to 1751, if that which is shown on the "Tesoro" Stone Cross is indeed a year, perhaps even before 1743, when Fr. Keller's expedition was raided by Apaches while enroute to the Moqui villages.

View attachment 795801
Her is Kino's map,published in 1701, which would have been used by Keller IMO.

View attachment 795802

And a crop which shows the Moqui area toward which the expedition was headed.

View attachment 795808

I believe it possible, as I have explained in greater length in a previous discussion, that the stones may have been cached at the QC site when the expedition lost it's animals and was forced to return to the Gila. Also that the stated purpose of the expedition may have been a "cover story" for what was in fact a trip undertaken with two goals. One...transport of a shipment of valuables to the "vaults" site. Two...to place the stones ( we have seen) in locations closer to and in the area of the "vaults" themselves.

It is also possible, with knowledge of how detrimental the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 to both the Catholic church and it's Spanish colonists in New Mexico, that some kind of strategy was devised to safeguard any surplus wealth belonging to the church and it's patrons. If so, might some group comprised of enterprising and technically adept people, organized and lead first by Franciscans and later Jesuits (after they were assigned to Pimeria Alta) have chosen a site within the Sups as suitable for construction of an early version of Fort Knox ? Could such a strategy, if feasable, have been implemented between 1692 and 1700, when the Spansh regained full control of the region ? Could some manner of organized and secretive tax avoidance scheme have been part of the strategy as well ?
These are just a few of the questions I am working on, for which even circumstantial evidence might might lead somewhere.
One of the reasons for my looking into the circumstances of the Mexican-American War is the possibility or hunch that the location was last used for a cache site during the conflict.
Clouded by the passage of time and obscured by secrecy, many of the answers to what transpired within the peaks of the Superstition Mountains during the period from 1700-1847 may never be known. But I do enjoy the search and it's challenges.

Regards:SH.

somehiker,
We are not that far apart in our ideas. While I believe that the stones were made during the 1940's, I do believe that earlier events/discoveries in history were recorded in the stones. I have demonstrated in past post that there is evidence to support Kino himself passing beyond the Salt, north to the land of the Moqui. Your post confirms the established trail system from the Gila to the land of the Moqui.

One thing that is problematic with the 1680 revolt... they had almost no idea that it was coming. Even officials Gov/Religious had no idea of the growing animosity among the Pueblo peoples. In their blind arrogance, the settlers simply did not expect it. That is confirmed by the historical record. So, in my mind, there would have been no time to prepare. But there are two other possibilities. A Jesuit cache/deposit just before their 1767 expulsion, or an event that would make sense on a historical timeline, like the Taos Revolt of 1847. In this revolt, time, secrecy, and need were key and the revolt did included the rich as well as the poor. The stone maps were made years later, by someone who spent time in Santa Fe and eventually settled in the Phoenix area.

"The rebellion has been depicted, both in accounts written at the time and even in more recent works, as the plotting of “barbarous” Indians and the poorer class of uneducated Hispanos, but in fact resentment against the American invaders and the consequent loss of sovereignty was shared by all classes. Members of some leading families in Santa Fe and Albuquerque began plotting a rebellion to take place in December 1846. Two of their leaders were Diego Archuleta and Tomás Ortiz. Archuleta was a military officer and son of Juan Andrés Archuleta, the former military commander of New Mexico; Ortiz was the brother of the vicar of Santa Fe, Father Juan Felipe Ortiz. The elaborate plans of the conspirators to take back control of New Mexico were found out before any actions occurred, and many of them were arrested, which seemed to Governor Bent to be the end of the rebellion."

 

[Ellie Baba]

Invitation

Howdy Ellie B,

I am only fluent in English, and Spanish, but my vocabulary is limited in both. I know a lot of made up words that we refer to as Spanish, but they are not in any Spanish dictionary. They are common words, and we communicate with them. Some educated Mexican will point that out, and tell us it is not correct Spanish, yet we are communicating with these common unrecognized words.

I told you that "escardadia" "may" be referring to the discards, because it may be one of these common unrecognized words.

You are also entitled to your own opinion, which is separating what was written into two words. However, your efforts for a correct evaluation have fallen short of 100% despite of your selection of professionals.

On your first translation of the words "escarda dia", you said it was weeding day, which is referring to a certain time of year. The time to weed your garden.

If you go back to your example of the use of the words "escarda dia", you will notice that they are going to harvest the fruits. Weeding day, and harvest day, are way apart from being a certain time of the year. They were not going to weed the fields, they were going to separate the fruit from the plants. So, "escarda dia" would be any time of the year that you are going to be separating anything.

I have heard many stories of the Superstitions, and am aware that there are grown men who are afraid of the unknown. I myself fear only our Lord, nothing else, I am not superstitious. Superstitions are only in ones head, and not something that can be carved in solid rock. I never make fun of others beliefs, and respect what ever rituals they do, but no feathers, bones, carved eyes, or anything will keep me from going where I want. If I should ever be so fortunate as to witness an apparition, I will follow it , and see where it takes me.

Homar

Homar,

The reason I mentioned the carved seeing eye was to interest you in coming out to see these sites. If you ever have the time and resources you are welcome here anytime. The Lord is also my Sheppard and I have no wants.

What you are saying above is absolutely correct pertaining to slang and phrases. Here in Arizona we have thousands of illegals from south of the border. Many of my translations are shared and opinions formed from their background and lives. Many also come from other Latin American countries and they also shed some light upon the subject. They also have many Jesuit/Treasure legends in their homelands.

One of many tools used in research is called reverse engineering. This type of technique has proved our theories regarding many different phrases found on the maps. The Perfil Map has a few more clues that can be interpreted in this same way. I cannot disclose all of these secrets or someone will locate the cache. As I said before, the Perfil Map and the Stone Maps have the same authors.

Take care,

Ellie B

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Hal,

You stated: I have demonstrated in past post that there is evidence to support Kino himself passing beyond the Salt, north to the land of the Moqui.

May I ask which past post?

EB

 

[tom dunkle]

Hello Ellie,

Thanks for you response. All of this can make your head spin. Hope those bees you speak of are not African bees. Seems those guys are pretty rough.

I have to say I have always wondered why the Trail Maps seem to lead to so many different places. I like Cactus Jumper`s solution. It just seems to work.

I did see a solution years ago that always intrigued me. The way it was explained to me the two trail maps essentially show the same location just at different scales. The trail map shows a ground level view while the heart map shows the same area just a bit different look. It does work. I have hiked it several times but never found anything.

Did have an odd feeling up on that Mesa that I was being watched. Probably nothing.


Tom

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Ellie,

Thanks for you response. All of this can make your head spin. Hope those bees you speak of are not African bees. Seems those guys are pretty rough.

I have to say I have always wondered why the Trail Maps seem to lead to so many different places. I like Cactus Jumper`s solution. It just seems to work.

I did see a solution years ago that always intrigued me. The way it was explained to me the two trail maps essentially show the same location just at different scales. The trail map shows a ground level view while the heart map shows the same area just a bit different look. It does work. I have hiked it several times but never found anything.

Did have an odd feeling up on that Mesa that I was being watched. Probably nothing.


Tom

Tom,

It's been over forty-years since I first drew the stone map trail onto my topographic map. Many Dutch Hunters, some good friends, just don't see any similarities between the two. On occasion, someone comes along, like you, who notices how some things match very well. At the end of that, still visible trail,



you will find this:



It is at the exact end of the trail that starts at the 1 in West Boulder, curves to the east and over a saddle, ending in Little Boulder Canyon. There are old claims in and around that saddle:



Many people have said I spent 50+ years on this puzzle and never found anything. They are all dead wrong.

All attributable to pure coincidence and random chance........I'm sure.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Wouldn't the route from the Gila to Hopi (Moqui) and back have followed the Verde River (Rio Azul)? How would they have arrived at the alleged stones 'discovery point' at Queen Creek? Seems too far east.

By that time, they probably were too far east for a guaranteed safe passage, but I believe they were using the same "indian trail" shown on the 1867 Military map.

View attachment 1867 Military map.bmp

That's probably why they ended up getting wacked by the Apache.
Any prior entradas, for the purpose of adding shipments to their facility may have not been so unlucky...or had superior defence capabilities.
The Verde Valley was home to the Vavapai, who also roamed the Sups both above and below the Salt River and down to the Gila.
So the perps may have actually been a hunting or raiding party of either Pinaleños or Yavapai, who just happened to get lucky.
Keller did make another trip to the Moqui, but his route took him down the Gila and up the Colorado, where he probably made a right at the Old Spanish Trail.
The Pima had refused to guide the Jesuits on any more jaunts anywhere near or through the Sups. At least that's my take on the historical accounts I have been able to read. I do have, somewhere in my saved files, a slightly more descriptive account of Keller's first attempt. I'll have a look for it later, but as I recall it also mentions the loss of two members of the party, one soldier and one Pima. I have wondered if the two deep grave-sized holes nearest Queen Creek were their plots.
But it is also possible that these were caches of other goods they had to leave behind. I have already speculated on the possibility IMO, that the Spanish Armour and other items found by Robert Tumlinson and his unnamed accomplice were found in the same area as the Stones. Some of this may have belonged to the soldier who was killed during the raid. These holes may have been found because they had subsided somewhat, and they would have had an easier time digging where this alluvial deposit (as hard as cured concrete) had previously been disturbed.

Regards:SH.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

You wrote " How, in your mind, would that have been possible in the mid 19th century? "

You believe how is soon or late ?
If you believe how is soon , maybe you believe how are fakes .
If you believe how is late , you probably got carried away from the many Crosses and you believe how are made by Jesuits . None Jesuit would not accept to wear to a priest this rediculous hat . They would consider it a sacrilege .
These Crosses are to pray to stay alive .

Marius

markmar,
My question to you was how, in the mid-19th century, capturing or simply viewing an image from above would have been possible? Just to be clear, I do not believe that any Jesuit made the stones. But I also do not believe that they could have been made before, well, lets say the early 1930's. Based on what I believe.

What is it that I believe? The stones are a medium for recording history. An encyptid time capsule. That is what the artist/author did best. Preserving secrets. I have had a few conversations with who I believe to be a descendent of the artist. While I did not obtain an outright confession, there is enough there to keep me focused. I am not going to give that name because I want TN members to come to the same conclusion using reasoning. This is why I was making a list of skills and traits for the artist, but there seems to be no one willing to contribute. Complete that list and the artists name becomes obvious. That is a promise.

 

[somehiker]

Springfield:
View attachment Jacobo Sedelmayr Keller's Journey.bmp
Refer once again to the description of Keller's trip that I outlined in red.
Which clearly states the route of travel.
If they were on a trail which has "close to the east a sierra rises which is the haunt of the enemy Apaches" , could they not have made camp near water at Queen Creek ?
So why would they choose a trail that they knew might bring them close to the enemy, unless they had a better reason (to them) than that which was officially given ?
And if they had no animals left to ride or carry anything heavy, such as the stones or the armour, what might they have have done before they made their way back to the Gila on foot....with two less people than they started out with as well ?

Regards:SH.

 

[sgtfda]

Hal it's interesting to watch as you work this out and adapt as you gain more information. Most officers from the time period had other skills. Had to so they could get by. You name the skill and you could find one who could handle it. But the skills were not all the same. It depended on what they did for a living before becoming a officer. I've been leaning toward the map stones being found and the horse and priest stone carved later. Perhaps to show things found while using the map stones. Did your suspect enjoy stone carving at some time in his life? Wandering in the mountains you see all kinds of rock formations that look like things. The priest and horse map could have been personal maps using these formations as reference points. Why in stone. Well we all have our little kinks. I was shown some the other day carved in wood. Depends on what your into. Stone, wood or paper. Even a tattoo on your wife's butt. Well not there. If she runs off someone else end up with your map.

 

[somehiker]

Hal:

"One thing that is problematic with the 1680 revolt... they had almost no idea that it was coming. Even officials Gov/Religious had no idea of the growing animosity among the Pueblo peoples. In their blind arrogance, the settlers simply did not expect it. That is confirmed by the historical record."

Read this part again...

"It is also possible, with knowledge of how detrimental the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 to both the Catholic church and it's Spanish colonists in New Mexico, that some kind of strategy was devised to safeguard any surplus wealth belonging to the church and it's patrons. "

I used the word "knowledge", as in "after the fact" or "having learned from" ...Not "foreknowledge" as in "expecting something" or "knowing what lies ahead".
So it's not problematic in the least.

Regards:SH.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I once had a conversation in a semina..at NAU...

if a person tells you something, an you refuse to listen, or don't understand the language they use...is it unarticulated rage?

if anyone believes anyone had prior knowledge of the pueblo event... there would not be a hopi village, of Christians, killed in mass, burned to the foundations...
just drive up to second mesa an turn left...do notice the rather aged peach tree that is never allowed to bear fruit.
if one suggest the padre were such good guys...how about that ruin of a church up on third mesa...NO ONE is allowed in...no one anytime any reason...
if you do go in...and the societies see you...expect the same sky diving lessons the padre earned...

 

[sgtfda]

Secretcanyon I think you are 100% correct. The way the native populations were treated cannot be described as pleasant period! Hell look how the Church treated their own both here and in Europe.

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

The reason I mentioned the carved seeing eye was to interest you in coming out to see these sites. If you ever have the time and resources you are welcome here anytime. The Lord is also my Sheppard and I have no wants.

What you are saying above is absolutely correct pertaining to slang and phrases. Here in Arizona we have thousands of illegals from south of the border. Many of my translations are shared and opinions formed from their background and lives. Many also come from other Latin American countries and they also shed some light upon the subject. They also have many Jesuit/Treasure legends in their homelands.

One of many tools used in research is called reverse engineering. This type of technique has proved our theories regarding many different phrases found on the maps. The Perfil Map has a few more clues that can be interpreted in this same way. I cannot disclose all of these secrets or someone will locate the cache. As I said before, the Perfil Map and the Stone Maps have the same authors.

Take care,

Ellie B

Howdy Ellie B.,

I appreciate your invitation, nothing would please me more that to be able to go and see all those places that everyone has found. I was the victim of a drunk driver on a head-on collision. I have trouble walking on level ground, and can't walk too far. I am grateful for all the pictures that everyone is willing to post, of places that I would otherwise have never seen.

I would like to be in the same page with you, as you share information concerning your thoughts on the PSM's. I don't know if I missed something somewhere, but you once stated that the Jesuits were involved with the creation of the PSM's. You then stated that the Perfil map was Gringo made. You claim both maps have the same authors, I understand that you don't want to give everything away, but when do you think the PSM's were created?

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

markmar,
My question to you was how, in the mid-19th century, capturing or simply viewing an image from above would have been possible? Just to be clear, I do not believe that any Jesuit made the stones. But I also do not believe that they could have been made before, well, lets say the early 1930's. Based on what I believe.

What is it that I believe? The stones are a medium for recording history. An encyptid time capsule. That is what the artist/author did best. Preserving secrets. I have had a few conversations with who I believe to be a descendent of the artist. While I did not obtain an outright confession, there is enough there to keep me focused. I am not going to give that name because I want TN members to come to the same conclusion using reasoning. This is why I was making a list of skills and traits for the artist, but there seems to be no one willing to contribute. Complete that list and the artists name becomes obvious. That is a promise.

Howdy Hal,

You once claimed that the PSM's were Jesuit made, and that you had proof. Now you don't believe that any Jesuit made the stones. That's ok, you are allowed to change your mind, but what happened to the proof?

Now you do not believe that they could have been made before, the early 1930's, and you are making a promise, without any proof, based just on a belief?

Homar

 

[Springfield]

... Refer once again to the description of Keller's trip that I outlined in red.
Which clearly states the route of travel.
If they were on a trail which has "close to the east a sierra rises which is the haunt of the enemy Apaches" , could they not have made camp near water at Queen Creek ?
So why would they choose a trail that they knew might bring them close to the enemy, unless they had a better reason (to them) than that which was officially given ?
And if they had no animals left to ride or carry anything heavy, such as the stones or the armour, what might they have have done before they made their way back to the Gila on foot....with two less people than they started out with as well ?

Regards:SH.

Of course, anything's possible, but if this was a secret mission having something to do with gold in the Superstitions, why officially acknowledge it at all? If the stones were part of the story and hastily buried by the padres in retreat, why not return later and retrieve them? Unfortunately, this theory begs Tumlinson's allegations regarding the stones' provenance, which ought to trouble a prudent man. Tumlinson cannot be considered credible, IMO.