The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

joe that simple to solve . list as many of the difrent Bark notes as you can find . i will tell you wish ones are correct and what is not correct ..

bb,

How many versions have you seen?

Joe

 

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[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

joe that simple to solve . list as many of the difrent Bark notes as you can find . i will tell you wish ones are correct and what is not correct ..

bb,

How many versions have you seen?

Joe

just what you and cub were talking about a few months ago .. the cave the crack and the hole part

i dont know a lot about it and i dont have time to research it now .. i leave next week end ...

just focus on the house in the cave and the mine it self .. if that helps ...

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Bill96,

I don't know the exact answer to your question, however, I do know that some "supposedly" possible relatives of Waltz's, were following up on that angle, about 3- 5 years ago. (can't remember exactly when) They had an account with Ancestry.com, and, as they were going back through their lineage, they came across a Jacob Waltz, and another, female who came from Germany. At that particular time, they had posted some questions on the site, asking if there was anyone who had any info about their Jacob being THE Jacob, and they had some answers, which led them down several paths. (including Rhiney, Julia, Holmes, etc.).

Since that time - they have taken whatever information they had gotten off Ancestry, so I am not sure what their "leads" ended up leading to.
Their last names were not Waltz, but their search had lead to the Waltz name.

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

joe that simple to solve . list as many of the difrent Bark notes as you can find . i will tell you wish ones are correct and what is not correct ..

bb,

How many versions have you seen?

Joe

just what you and cub were talking about a few months ago .. the cave the crack and the hole part

i dont know a lot about it and i dont have time to research it now .. i leave next week end ...

just focus on the house in the cave and the mine it self .. if that helps ...

OK,

1- The Spangler copy.

2- The hand written copy, which was copied when Chuck Aylor got Spangler out of camp, giving
DeGraffenreid the chance to copy the version that was in Spangler's pack. It is the one copy
that is substantially different. Do you know why it is different?

3- The Reser copy.

4- The Worst copy.

5- The Probert copy.

6- The Richard Peck copy.

7- This "version" is the original notes. These notes are different than the "manuscript" that was listed as #1 above. The notes are said to contain the 40 questions and answers that Bark asked Rhiney. There are also many (unpublished) clues that Bark gleaned from Julia and Rhiney.

There are two people who are said to have seen the original notes. One was Richard Peck and the other is someone who made friends with Spangler before his death. I have asked that person about seeing those notes, and it was denied, just as my source told me it would be.

That's the best I can do.

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

i could read anyone of those accounts and tell you if they are correct or not .. but this is getting us no where .. so far .

i got another question .

this may sound funny . put what would any want to look in any of those canyons for ..?

all 3 of them are dead ends ..if there not it would take a mt goat to get over the redge line ..none of them fit the waltz description . and wisner could not have climbed out of those canyons at a full run .. he would have been a dead man before he got 1/2 way to the top ...

dont you think people would have seen waltz coming and going from any one of those canyons ...?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Cactusjumper wrote

<snip>
1- The Spangler copy.

2- The hand written copy, which was copied when Chuck Aylor got Spangler out of camp, giving
DeGraffenreid the chance to copy the version that was in Spangler's pack. It is the one copy
that is substantially different. Do you know why it is different?
<snip>

No, I have only ever seen ONE version, and it was certainly not the original. We do not know if the versions in circulation are true to the original, which was my point. They could be 'doctored' to agree with what is seen in Ely's book, without Bark's own original set of notes to compare, we have no way of knowing.

Roy

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Joe - have you seen what you refer to as "copy #2?" I don't know if I've seen that one or not, and I don't recall right now what would make it substantially different - I would think of all of them, THAT ONE would have the greatest chance of being closest to the original notes - assuming of course it was copied correctly, and that Spangler didn't "pull a fast one" and leave a fake copy lying around to be copied in the first place.

Loke - I know that Spangler (Jim Bark's nephew) spent some time looking for the LDM. It was supposedly his copy of the Bark Notes that were copied while he was out of camp one day.

I've heard rumors also that other descendents of Bark's within the last 5-10 years are still periodically searching, but have never heard any specific names listed to confirm that.

I don't know if John Spangler had any children or even whether he was married - never looked into it myself.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Cactusjumper wrote

Julia first attempted to enter the mountains, with Rhiney, at Hog Canyon. Just one canyon west of Hieroglyphic Canyon.

Another version,

After the death of "Old Jake," Julia and Rhinehart tried to put the pieces together. Their first decision was to find
another partner they could trust. Julia accepted the idea of inviting Rhinehart's brother Hermann into the partnership.
Hermann was living in Colorado at the time.

Early during the month of August 1892, shortly after Herman's arrival, the three began the organization of the
expedition. Julia bought a team, wagon, and camping gear. Later they would find out the wagon and team was a mistake.
The group departed from Phoenix on August 11, 1892 with little fanfare. At the close of the first day the party was
camped along the Salt River south of the old Maryville crossing on the river. The second day they traveled eastward
across the desert toward the western facade of Superstition Mountain arriving in the area south of Bull Dog Peak somewhere.
At this point they realized the team and wagon would be useless in the mountains. The abandoned the wagon
and decided to pack the team. The next morning they packed up the horses and started toward the northwestern end of
Superstition Mountain in search of 'La Sombrero.' According to Hermann Petrasch they camped in Needle Canyon just
north of Weaver's Needle for three weeks.

<from THE ORIGIN OF THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE STORY
by Tom Kollenborn (c) 1979, 1999, http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Origin of Dutchman Mine.pdf>

This version does not have Julia and Reiney go out without Herman so is possibly not the "first" attempt.
Roy

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

ok IMHO if this was the first time julia went in to the mts .. she took a waggon . and in any case she would not tryed to take the waggon in to the mts again after the frist try ...lol so we are not logically looking at more then one time into the mts . it sound IMHO that the accounts and who are telling them is where the confussion is takeing place ...and other thing i would like to point out . knowing where the mine is and seeing this account ..
the timely discovery of the bull dog mine means nothing to the case of the LDM .. nothing what so ever , it may be easy to think they were related some how but thats not the case at all .. in fact the LDM is not the bull dog .. i investgated the bull dog as a sorce of the waltz gold early on in my research before i located the LDM and realized they were not the same sorce at all .. i do find this account interesting Roy because it tells us a few things about julia and where she was looking . but did she have any real chance of finding the mine without the waltz will ...?

and it is interesting to see what was said about her maps and the details of those maps , even in random over sight i have to agree with this account about her maps .. she did not render a focused copy of the details waltz had gaven her .. her map would have shown . items that were on the Peralta stones them selfs .. thats what waltz had used to create her details his memory of the stones was from a long time ago .. years before he would create her direction ..i beleive she could not locate the stiones and thought she could locate the mine with out the stones .. big misteak .. anyone can hike out there and know for a fact those mts are awfull rough on anyone let alone try to find a needle in a hay stack....

the fact people totally focused on finding the mine with a clear head can not find it means she had almost no chance what so ever of locateing the mine ..IMHO she could have made a dozen trips it would not have matterd under the conditions of the details she had .or thought she had ....

as for needle canyon . thats near the red hills area just as i said it would be ..she was very close and had no idea why they could not find it ..she knew it was there somewhere ..if the mine had been the bull dog this rules that out . she was clearly in needle canyon north of weavers needle ...this is a good account of her expedition IMHO ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

joe that simple to solve . list as many of the difrent Bark notes as you can find . i will tell you wish ones are correct and what is not correct ..

bb,

Sorry, I took that to mean you only wanted me to list them, and you would be able to tell me which ones were correct, and which were incorrect.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Joe - have you seen what you refer to as "copy #2?" I don't know if I've seen that one or not, and I don't recall right now what would make it substantially different - I would think of all of them, THAT ONE would have the greatest chance of being closest to the original notes - assuming of course it was copied correctly, and that Spangler didn't "pull a fast one" and leave a fake copy lying around to be copied in the first place.

Loke - I know that Spangler (Jim Bark's nephew) spent some time looking for the LDM. It was supposedly his copy of the Bark Notes that were copied while he was out of camp one day.

I've heard rumors also that other descendents of Bark's within the last 5-10 years are still periodically searching, but have never heard any specific names listed to confirm that.

I don't know if John Spangler had any children or even whether he was married - never looked into it myself.

Paul,

I believe everything in your post is correct. I think that Ely's son may have done some searching, but can't swear to that. I only have one copy of the Bark Notes. It was given to me by Steve Creager.
I am certain he told me it was the one that Clay Worst had.

He is the one that gave me the information/list that is in my post. I have sent out a few copies, and thought one was sent to you.

I have never seen any additional copies, and figure there is no reason to seek them out. Steve's word was good enough for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Joe - have you seen what you refer to as "copy #2?" I don't know if I've seen that one or not, and I don't recall right now what would make it substantially different - I would think of all of them, THAT ONE would have the greatest chance of being closest to the original notes - assuming of course it was copied correctly, and that Spangler didn't "pull a fast one" and leave a fake copy lying around to be copied in the first place.

Loke - I know that Spangler (Jim Bark's nephew) spent some time looking for the LDM. It was supposedly his copy of the Bark Notes that were copied while he was out of camp one day.

I've heard rumors also that other descendents of Bark's within the last 5-10 years are still periodically searching, but have never heard any specific names listed to confirm that.

I don't know if John Spangler had any children or even whether he was married - never looked into it myself.

Paul,

I believe everything in your post is correct. I think that Ely's son may have done some searching, but can't swear to that. I only have one copy of the Bark Notes. It was given to me by Steve Creager.
I am certain he told me it was the one that Clay Worst had.

He is the one that gave me the information/list that is in my post. I have sent out a few copies, and thought one was sent to you.

I have never seen any additional copies, and figure there is no reason to seek them out. Steve's word was good enough for me.

Take care,

Joe

it makes me wonder if clay worst got that data from browie holmes and not from Barks notes ,,,.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Joe - have you seen what you refer to as "copy #2?" I don't know if I've seen that one or not, and I don't recall right now what would make it substantially different - I would think of all of them, THAT ONE would have the greatest chance of being closest to the original notes - assuming of course it was copied correctly, and that Spangler didn't "pull a fast one" and leave a fake copy lying around to be copied in the first place.

Loke - I know that Spangler (Jim Bark's nephew) spent some time looking for the LDM. It was supposedly his copy of the Bark Notes that were copied while he was out of camp one day.

I've heard rumors also that other descendents of Bark's within the last 5-10 years are still periodically searching, but have never heard any specific names listed to confirm that.

I don't know if John Spangler had any children or even whether he was married - never looked into it myself.

Paul,

I believe everything in your post is correct. I think that Ely's son may have done some searching, but can't swear to that. I only have one copy of the Bark Notes. It was given to me by Steve Creager.
I am certain he told me it was the one that Clay Worst had.

He is the one that gave me the information/list that is in my post. I have sent out a few copies, and thought one was sent to you.

I have never seen any additional copies, and figure there is no reason to seek them out. Steve's word was good enough for me.

Take care,

Joe

Joe - yup, that's one of the copies I have. I re-read the note with it and I now recall why the handwritten version (what you called #2) is different from the others - nothing significant.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

bb,

"it makes me wonder if clay worst got that data from browie holmes and not from Barks notes ,,,."

Don't know what "data" you are talking about, but Brownie never gave up anything important to anyone. The same goes for Clay Worst, not even to their partners/best friends.

Believe that is pretty well known among most Dutch Hunters, although a few well known authors
believe otherwise, at least so they say.

What's on the last page of the Bark Notes that you have?

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

bb,

"it makes me wonder if clay worst got that data from browie holmes and not from Barks notes ,,,."

Don't know what "data" you are talking about, but Brownie never gave up anything important to anyone. The same goes for Clay Worst, not even to their partners/best friends.

Believe that is pretty well known among most Dutch Hunters, although a few well known authors
believe otherwise, at least so they say.

What's on the last page of the Bark Notes that you have?

Joe

you mis under stood what i said .. you and cub were haveing a debate about barks notes a few months ago ..i steped in added a comet then later delited why .. because me waltz were the only two people to have known about on of the detail ..untill i herd cub tell you about that detail you said it . you just did not know what means ..the only way they could have known that detail was from me or waltz him self and now you are saying the copy you have came from clay worst .. ,there is no way clay could have known that detail .. he had to have gotten it from some who knew waltz directly like dick holmes or browie holmesno other way clay could have known it ...imho that tells me browie did in fact tell clay some details that everyone else did not know about..

what i am saying is if me and waltz were the only ones that knew that detail . i did not tell anyone about that detail .. so there is only one logical way worst could have posably know it ...it had to come from waltz or some one he knew or there is parts of the will that are not in the dick holmes account ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

bb,

"it had to come from waltz or some one he knew or there is parts of the will that are not in the dick holmes account..."

There is no Dick Holmes account. There is only the Brownie Holmes Manuscript, which he denied writing 'til the day he died. The Waltz "will" you keep referring to, was likely written by Charles Frederick Higham. I assume you know who he was, and his reputation.

Have you ever heard the taped interview that Brownie gave to Tom Kollenborn?

See you soon,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

bb,

"it had to come from waltz or some one he knew or there is parts of the will that are not in the dick holmes account..."

There is no Dick Holmes account. There is only the Brownie Holmes Manuscript, which he denied writing 'til the day he died. The Waltz "will" you keep referring to, was likely written by Charles Frederick Higham. I assume you know who he was, and his reputation.

Have you ever heard the taped interview that Brownie gave to Tom Kollenborn?

See you soon,

Joe

no i do not know of charles frederick highham and no i have not herd the tape i dont have to ....

imho browie holmes said he did not write that Brownie Holmes Manuscript waltz wrote it . dick holmes changed it from being waltz 's will .. browie holmes did not write it and i agree with him 100% .. who wrote it last may be that Charles Frederick Higham for all i know .. b ut i do know whom wrote it frist and it was waltz ...

i agree with you it may have made things easyer for everyone if i had read those things . but as i said my profiling system dose not collect filterd data ... i search for directly related data only and then cover the unknown structure around that data .. if those things you have talked about were not related to the mine it self would have never known about them if you did not say anything here about them ..

the fact the Brownie Holmes Manuscript even named that is something i dont agree with .. its waltz's will and it dose not matter how many people rewrite it or make copies . the data in the will as i have that copy could have only been writtern by waltz him self ...

IMHO browie holmes was makeing sure that people did not say he wrote it .. that is not saying it was not given to him by dick holmes ..and i am not sure browie would want to agree with that statement ether . because it make it look like browie knew about the will and was part of keeping it hidden all those years ...

browie holmes did know about it and his own action IMHO prove that .. but / lets put the blame where it should be . back on Dick holmes him self .. his stealing the will cause the death of at lest 3 people in this legend . julia hunter as long as she could and dick and browie hunted most of their life times .. . to under stand what took place you have to know waltz wrote the will before he gave julia the direction to the mine . the rest of the directions were coded into the will . julia was the only one at the time of waltz's death that could have found the mine with useing her directions and the will .. dick holmes could not have found the mine with the will the way it was ,... imposable !

dick holmes must have figerd it out later that the direction were crubled . he had to have told browie that or browie would have never started the search the way he did ... and if browie did say anything it would have been to clay wosrt .. but you see i dont have to know what he told clay to know that the will is real and that infomation that came from clay had to have come from browie after being past to him from dick holmes him self , the infomation was not in the will . me and waltz were the only ones that knew about it .. it had to have come directly from waltz at some point in the past ...i know for a fact that information is correct to the word ...

so what you are saying about browie holmes not writeing the Brownie Holmes Manuscript is in fact true , he did not write it .. but the details came from waltz and were taken by dick holmes ...

it really has nothing to do with who wrote it down and made it public at this point .. its about the data in the Brownie Holmes Manuscript ...it self that makes it interesting to me .

i knew the directions were crubled when i frist read them ... why because i knew where the real mine was before i read the Brownie Holmes Manuscript .. and i have located the mine from a out side sorce , the sighting in 1979 told me where the Hoya was .. i back tracked tilll i located the mine . the maps and directions do work both ways ....lol .

see waltz made the directions to confuse anyone trying to find the mine other then julia ...

i did not need the directions to locate the mine , but after i knew where the mine was it was easy to go back and see how the directions were crubled and how the legend ended up the way it is now ..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

bb,

I see. That makes it all crystal clear.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Cactusjumper wrote

The Waltz "will" you keep referring to, was likely written by Charles Frederick Higham.

I presume you mean John Lindley Higham, who used that pen name? This is a new one on me (Higham as author of Holmes mss/"Waltz will") I would appreciate if you could expound on it a bit? It is absolutely possible, and would be a good "fit" but I would like to hear the particulars of what supports this fellow as author, thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Roy,

Do you have Dr. Glover's "Part 2: The Holmes Manuscriip"?

Take care,

Joe