The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Guys,

Every year since the first Rendezvous, the attacks get worse as the date for the event gets closer. I believe it's people who just want all of the attention on themselves. It's why, after the second year, I stopped being the organizer and just tried to make our camp as comfortable and welcoming as possible. Each year, we get more wives, women and children attending. It's a family affair, and a good one.

The LDM Forum used to be a great place to talk Dutch Hunting. It's, pretty much, a ghost town now. This forum is moving in the same direction. Personally, I no longer get that much enjoyment from the threads. If the moderators don't take control, I will post less and less.

If you want to see this forum go back to what it was before Kemm, and the Kemm clones came along, I would suggest that you place your complaints before the moderators. If you don't do that, they will just get worse. It's just history....We should learn from it.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

BB you need to keep things in perspective. Everyone on this link has their opinion on the LDM. It is not the end of the world if others do not agree with you. As long as you believe in your thing is what counts. Keep the joy in your search and put the negative behind you. Remember the universal law. Give good, receive good. Give bad, receive bad.

i agree sg...if they act their age it help ..

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Guys,

Every year since the first Rendezvous, the attacks get worse as the date for the event gets closer. I believe it's people who just want all of the attention on themselves. It's why, after the second year, I stopped being the organizer and just tried to make our camp as comfortable and welcoming as possible. Each year, we get more wives, women and children attending. It's a family affair, and a good one.

The LDM Forum used to be a great place to talk Dutch Hunting. It's, pretty much, a ghost town now. This forum is moving in the same direction. Personally, I no longer get that much enjoyment from the threads. If the moderators don't take control, I will post less and less.

If you want to see this forum go back to what it was before Kemm, and the Kemm clones came along, I would suggest that you place your complaints before the moderators. If you don't do that, they will just get worse. It's just history....We should learn from it.

Take care,

Joe

you played a roll in this joe

you and your BS coments , you dont want the fire dont feed the flames my friend .. i fully agree with most of what you said but i am not going any where and if you post less and less thats a good thing as far as i am concern .. your insaults started this.. you could have acted your age . you did not want to ..
the rendenzous and this site had nothing to fear from me at all and you saying those things is slander ..

you need to grow up and act your age joe ..

i reacted to the insaults and pushing .. you are not pushing me anywhere ..if you got anything else to say to me talk to my lawyer ...

i will be ending the LDM legend at the Rendenzous .. i dont really care if you like that or not .. it had nothing to do with you ...

if i was plaing some wild shot out . would i bring Helen ..

da ... i made reservations to make sure i was there this year ...i agree with you about the web sites but i am not the cuase and your not helping when you feed the flames ...

i have no problem what so ever backing down if i feel i am doing the right thing for the web site .. but dont set there and get your flunkies to insault me and then say its my fault .. that i react to it .. any more then you would in this same case ..

i have no problemn what so ever doing what i claim i will so . its has nothing to do with you joe ..

sorry your not the goal and no one is in danger from me .. thats total foolishness ..get a real ..

i will keep my replies on topic . and not at a person level .. you keepo your replies about the topics and we will have no problems what so ever ..

i am sorry you did not find the LDM . if you can not handle that , its your problem not mine ..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Joe - you said...

Julia first attempted to enter the mountains, with Rhiney, at Hog Canyon. Just one canyon west of Hieroglyphic Canyon.

I know I've asked you this before, but my memory sucks and I'm too lazy to go back and try to find it again.

You've stated this on a number of occasions as fact and not just your opinion - can you remind me yet again what the evidence is to suggest this is where they FIRST made their attempt to find the mine?

Oh and what Beth said about feeling as though you are being threatened - I know you have someone on ignore and so do I, but for what it's worth, there have been some veiled as well as not so veiled threats made over the last few weeks and months and I hope folks are at the very least taking them seriously. The tone of some of the posts has gotten very abusive, profane and even had mention of "guns" and "killer" comments once. The posts are getting to the point where I'm starting to get uncomfortable. I know for myself at least I am taking it seriously.

Paul,

It was this passage from the Bark Notes that convinced me that Julia and Rhiney, just the two of them alone, first tried to enter the Superstitions at Hog Canyon:

"Scarcely had I taken charge until there were rumors and very indefinite stories about there being a very rich gold mines over the mountain, in the Superstition range, but nothing that a cattle man would pay any attention to. As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893, I met some campers near an old well belonging to the ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas and a young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrasch, whom Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted."

There is more, but you can all read it for yourselves.

bb has always made threats against me, as well as others here. While I do pay attention to those semi-threats, I don't waste any time fretting over them. I get them every year around Rendezvous time, and the events keep going on without a hitch or any kind of altercations.

There are people who do things, and people who do nothing. One of those groups are always jealous and resentful of the other. There are some very good people who attend the Rendezvous. They like it the way it is, with the easy flow of conversation and friendship that has made it such a success. I don't believe they will let anyone ruin that.

We are all going to have a great time.......again.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

1892 or 1893 ....? so its just your own thoery they came in threw hog canyon. so Bark did not see them enter the mts ..

my point is , could they have enterd the mts some one else ands ended up looking for water and ended up at the old well on the way out of the mts..?

Bark just saw them at the well . its unlikely they would need water going into the mts .. maybe on the way out ..IMHO

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

1892 or 1893 ....? so its just your own thoery they came in threw hog canyon. so Bark did not see them enter the mts ..

my point is , could they have enterd the mts some one else ands ended up looking for water and ended up at the old well on the way out of the mts..?

Bark just saw them at the well . its unlikely they would need water going into the mts .. maybe on the way out ..IMHO

bb,

Most serious Dutch Hunters have read the Bark Notes, as he was one of the few people who was there in Waltz's time. If you had read those notes, you would know that Bark also writes that he followed their wagon tracks into the canyon. I believe he states that they went farther up that canyon than he believed possible with a wagon.

Don't make me put you back on ignore.

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Paul,

It was this passage from the Bark Notes that convinced me that Julia and Rhiney, just the two of them alone, first tried to enter the Superstitions at Hog Canyon:

"Scarcely had I taken charge until there were rumors and very indefinite stories about there being a very rich gold mines over the mountain, in the Superstition range, but nothing that a cattle man would pay any attention to. As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893, I met some campers near an old well belonging to the ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas and a young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrasch, whom Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted."

Joe, thanks for the reminder - I remember now that it was the Bark Notes that convinced you. I always note that you're pretty careful about suggesting what your opinion is as opposed to what a fact is - I think that's why I seem to get caught up in your position on Hog Canyon each time because you state it as fact in most every case - I just don't see it as more than an educated opinion.

First of all, I know you consider Ely to be one of the two best sources on the LDM legends with the other being Bark - mostly because they were one of the first ones on the scene and hopefully what they wrote is closest to the main sources of the time. Ely states in his book that Helena and Reiney drove to First Water on the northerly side of the Superstition Wall shortly after Waltz's death, then the two of them walked into the mountains with packs on their backs looking for the mine. Granted, nowhere does he state that this was the direction they took on their FIRST trip to find the mine, BUT, nowhere do the Bark notes state that where he found them was during their first attempt either.

Has anyone ever discovered EXACTLY where this well was that Bark mentioned being "about 6 miles west of the ranch house?"

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Paul,

It was this passage from the Bark Notes that convinced me that Julia and Rhiney, just the two of them alone, first tried to enter the Superstitions at Hog Canyon:

"Scarcely had I taken charge until there were rumors and very indefinite stories about there being a very rich gold mines over the mountain, in the Superstition range, but nothing that a cattle man would pay any attention to. As I was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893, I met some campers near an old well belonging to the ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas and a young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrasch, whom Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted."

Joe, thanks for the reminder - I remember now that it was the Bark Notes that convinced you. I always note that you're pretty careful about suggesting what your opinion is as opposed to what a fact is - I think that's why I seem to get caught up in your position on Hog Canyon each time because you state it as fact in most every case - I just don't see it as more than an educated opinion.

First of all, I know you consider Ely to be one of the two best sources on the LDM legends with the other being Bark - mostly because they were one of the first ones on the scene and hopefully what they wrote is closest to the main sources of the time. Ely states in his book that Helena and Reiney drove to First Water on the northerly side of the Superstition Wall shortly after Waltz's death, then the two of them walked into the mountains with packs on their backs looking for the mine. Granted, nowhere does he state that this was the direction they took on their FIRST trip to find the mine, BUT, nowhere do the Bark notes state that where he found them was during their first attempt either.

Has anyone ever discovered EXACTLY where this well was that Bark mentioned being "about 6 miles west of the ranch house?"

Paul,

I believe that later on in the notes Bark states that they moved up to First Water for getting into the mountains. Not at home, so I could be wrong.

I was convinced of the location of their first try, many years ago. Nothing I have read or heard of, has changed my mind. I should have said, IMHO, based on the available evidence. In this case, since Ely wasn't even around, I will go with what Bark implied.

I believe Bark is the best source, followed by Ely.

One other thing, I believe that Bicknell's article, which probably used Julia as a source, supports them trying to enter the mountains from that area. Follow that up with the Stone Maps, and you start to see things coming full circle.

Being an old idiot, I could be all wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Paul,

Couple of other things that came to mind while thinking on the question further. The Bark Family made Ely remove and change some of the things in Bark's Notes as a condition for letting him use them. One item that might be a good thing to change if you are looking for the mine yourself, is where Julia and Rhiney first attempted to enter the mountains.

One other fact to consider, is that when Brownie decided to do a systematic search for the mine, he started from the main mountain. Why there? Did his dad follow Julia and Rhiney on that first trip? Seems likely to me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

i have not read barks full notes as of yet . i have seen some of them here on the site threw the years and i do have a copy of the lost dutchman mine by sims ely the the 1964 signed in the cover by GEO Koehler 5/2/66

i do like the bark's notes .

i was only saying if Barks notes are not sure of the dating of the sighting then we should not asume beyond that under standing should we ?

i under stand why you made the statement . and i agree if barks note made the statement it is of higher value then most ..what i do know about the barks notes i can say are worth more then the whole book of ely's..

as a true sorce that is .. i never saw much value in elys work as much as the barks notes i have read here at the site ..IMHO bark said more in one page then ely said in his whole book IMHO .. a good book but not directly related to the mine it self ...like barks stuff ..

i dont have the time to get a copy of Barks note i tryed once to find them at amazon .. but had no luck at the time ..

besides joe i did not want to have filterd sorces in my research .. often those that write about events filter those event with their own opioions and theories ,, some times their own way of writeing fliters the out come ...

i like Barks note my self and if i had found a full copy i would have read them ... i like the fact he knew what he was writeing about ,,,...

 

[Loke]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

One other fact to consider, is that when Brownie decided to do a systematic search for the mine, he started from the main mountain. Why there? Did his dad follow Julia and Rhiney on that first trip? Seems likely to me.

Never thought of that - but it sure makes a lot of sense!

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

there is something else interesting there to if browie had started to do a systematic search as you say ..his father had known there was something not right about the waltz will ,,...lol

i think he realized things were not going to be the bed of roses he thought they were going be when he took the will . but we see browie starting a search ,dick had to have told him about the crubled directions ...

if you knew what i know thats interesting ..the reason i say that is it points to the fact that dick did in fact know it was waltz's will ...

see what mean . if waltz had told dick the account the way dick said he did . there would be no reason for browie to do a search like that would there ...? IMHO dick told browie about the crubled directions , or browie would not have started a search like that . why start a search like that if you have the direction ?

i know whats crubled about those directions ..and you could not locate the mine with them they way they are...i dont think waltz said a word dick holmes , maybe he did say something but i can not type it here ..lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Paul,

There was an old cabin over in that area, and they had a well. The only thing left, is the rock chimney. It's closer to Monument Canyon, which is just west of Hog.

My source for the above information is Tom Kollenborn. Might be an interesting place to take a look at.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

One other fact to consider, is that when Brownie decided to do a systematic search for the mine, he started from the main mountain. Why there? Did his dad follow Julia and Rhiney on that first trip? Seems likely to me.

Never thought of that - but it sure makes a lot of sense!

It is also perfectly logical to start a systematic search at the main mountain, where the range is at the narrowest point. We could also note the route of Holmes in trailing Waltz was on the north side, and ended on the north side of the Salt river for that matter.

I don't think I can agree with those who hold the Bark notes as superior to Ely's book on the grounds that there are several different versions of the Bark notes. Which, if any, are the "real" set?

As to how to tie this to the Peralta stones, I can't; in fact I do not know of any mention of any stone tablets in Ely or Bark. Hal brought up an important point a short while ago about the scale used for the map stones however, which I agree with in principal. If the stone tablets are Jesuit created (and I am not taking the position that they are) a quick look at the scale used on Jesuit maps shows none at the level used by most people who hold that the stone maps are maps of the Superstitions. There are Spanish maps dating to the 1700's at such scales and even larger (smaller area, more enlarged) but generally only for important fortifications and cities. A map covering the area as proposed to fit the Superstitions is a rather rare thing until the USGS started doing their topographic series in the early 1900s. Not saying the stone maps are topographic, rather more topologic. Also the placement of the dagger, if a genuine old map, would not be a surprise to find it at the bottom of the map with an arrow pointing north, rather than at the top or side of the map. This would indicate an orientation of the two map stones that does not agree with the topography of the Superstitions. According to the very first public article on the stones, they were not found in the Superstitions too, though there are strong reasons to doubt the origin story as well.

Just repeating myself here in hopes that someone will show me something that makes the argument for the stone maps fitting the Superstitions absolutely - yet several key landmarks seem to be ignored or left out (Weavers Needle, Four Peaks, Miners Needle etc) or you must "interpret" some mark as one of these distinctive landmarks in order to make the case, which I can not do comfortably. The other Peralta stones are in serious doubt (for me) though they too can fit to other locations not in the Superstitions, such as what Bob Schoose pointed out in that you tube video.

Looking forward to seeing you all, hope that the moderators will take a hand in this war of words that has been getting well out of hand. As Joe pointed out with the LDM forums, a few individuals can drive away a large number; it happened with the LT forums and they had to completely shut them down for several years. That one is now back online, but all of the old posts are gone and most of the good folks who used to post there never came back just as with the LDM forums. Maybe it is just one of the factors of public forums, sure looks that way. I hope you all have a very pleasant day,
Oroblanco

 

[BILL96]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Oro,
I think if you a dealing with a open forum with a potential of worldwide participation you have to take the good with the bad. I have been reading this forum for about ten years and I have certainly gotten a lot more good from it that bad. Without the "magic" of the internet and the this concept of a publiic forum we all would have missed out on a lot, including this incredible ability to carry on these instant conversations, at least I know I would have missed out on a lot.

Bill

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Bill96,

While I think you are right - it still takes a light hand from moderators, to make sure that things don't go too far over the edge. Which is what, I believe happened at the LT forum. It turned into a free-for-all, at some point. The fact that we do have moderators that don't "censor" speech, but do try to rein it in when it gets - potentially dangerous, is the reason why I believe Tnet still exists. I think that is the point Roy was trying to make. You always have to take the bad with the good, but, there is always a limit on what is acceptable (or, at least there should be). And, let's face it, debates DO get heated, but, besides being inappropriate for Tnet, its also not legal. They tend to call it Terroristic Threats - and the powers that be take this far more serious than they did before 9/11. So, we just need to think before we type.

Now, back to Waltz and Peralta Stones, etc.

I'm am having a really difficult time imagining a dying man, who, supposedly, found the stones, deciphered them, then found the LDM using them, and then, on his death bed, instead of telling the "solution", sends someone out to a place that would put a person back to the beginning. If he wanted someone to know where the mine was, he sure as heck wouldn't send them to a place that did not have the mine, but rather had something that would take him years to interpret, and might never get them to the mine.

I'm also having one heck of a time with this "will" business. There are various "stories" of what Waltz wanted to do with the mine - from giving it to Holmes, in return for taking care of his sister, to telling Holmes nothing at all, to telling Julia and Rhiney, to telling Holmes a fairy tale, to telling Julia that she would NOT be able to mine the mine, but she could get the cache.

None of these are attached to any will. I cannot imagine Holmes or Roberts, (or anyone else) perching themselves next to Waltz if Waltz had a will - they would have been up in the mountains before the body got cold.

Downloading bits and pieces of info from the internet is NOT always the best way to get information. As far as Holmes, his manuscript, Jim Bark and Spangler (and maybe Crazy Jake) - some of this information has become........almost useless, at times. Your best bet is to get a complete copy of things - when you can.

Beth

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

there is not going to be a war on words .. i will step back and think before i post anything from here till the Rendenzous . after the Rendenzous i will not longer come the site ...or be a member here on Tn

as for complete . if thats the case no one can solve the stones . they are not complete .. i found the missing peice and i am in fact the only one that can translate the stones correctly..

i will see you at the Rendenzous . ROY and Beth you are more then welcome to come see me at the ld state park . i hope to be there some time after the 16th ...

i am leaveing on the 8th and will not post pictures of expedition 5 or return to the site ..after this last week i am no longer going to use a computer other then on my expedition and off line .. this is my last week in your world
when i come back from the expedition i will no longer use the internet ...

your smileing !...lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Roy,

"I don't think I can agree with those who hold the Bark notes as superior to Ely's book on the grounds that there are several different versions of the Bark notes. Which, if any, are the "real" set?"

There are six known sets of the Bark notes. All are essentially the same in content. The only differences are in punctuation and spelling.

Rumor has it that there is a seventh set, but no one is willing to say they have seen it. The actual notes are what make up that mysterious seventh set. It may or may not even exist. I would not expect that any of the different sets would have a single surprise in it.

You have to remember that the Bark Notes did not come, officially, from the family. They were pilfered. What we have is, basically, what Spangler had.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

joe that simple to solve . list as many of the difrent Bark notes as you can find . i will tell you wish ones are correct and what is not correct ..

 

[BILL96]

Re: The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

Joe, (or anyone)
Is there any indication that either Bark or Ely's decendents ever made any kind of a search?

bill