The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Cubfan64]

Curious: why were you and RG so desperate to hold on the notion that TT was the finder of those Stone Maps rather than a buyer? The way you describe it, it seems like the discovery of that "telegram" was a punch to the guts, for you guys. I'm not sure I understand why that would be so..? What harm does that do- that TT turns out to be a buyer, not a finder?

I would thing it just makes the story much more difficult to tell because the "chain of custody" so to speak now starts with someone who they know very little about. At least if it started with Travis finding the stones, it makes the story easier to flesh out since they have access to just about everything that still exists from the "finder." Just my thoughts.

 

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[Old]

Thanks Cubfan, you got it right.

Arthur; We had the screen play, we had the maps, we had a grandfather known for maps and Spanish Dons. Easy simple story. All we had to do was put the pieces together and flesh it out. But along came the telegram...........

It became a much more difficult story to tell and to sort out fact from fiction. EVERYTHING has to be tested, nothing in the known narrative was solid ground or even a good starting point. It all had to be tested and collaborated. Add to that the story kept expanding. It was like an octopus with a thousand arms.

 

[deducer]

Thanks Cubfan, you got it right.

Arthur; We had the screen play, we had the maps, we had a grandfather known for maps and Spanish Dons. Easy simple story. All we had to do was put the pieces together and flesh it out. But along came the telegram...........

It became a much more difficult story to tell and to sort out fact from fiction. EVERYTHING has to be tested, nothing in the known narrative was solid ground or even a good starting point. It all had to be tested and collaborated. Add to that the story kept expanding. It was like an octopus with a thousand arms.

How was this being pitched to Discovery? As a reality show, a.k.a, "Oak Island"? Or a factual documentary? Discovery doesn't do movies.

I don't see what's wrong with a story that keeps expanding- that's where the fun is, constantly finding new facts, changing your theories accordingly- unless time wasn't on your side.

 

[Old]

Arthur, I'm going to guess as a reality show in the format of Oak Island. But; that's a better question for Ryan. The business aspect was never my area of focus. Although; I did know the general gist of the direction.

Type of show was always a hurdle. Its nature doesn't really fit any category neatly. Its too long of a story for a documentary (even a 2 hour one). Realty has its drawbacks depending on whether the latest shock value theme is what's selling vs. one based on more complex themes. What would have been more appropriate (IMO) would have been a mini series.

As explained to me, "pitch" is what the middleman production company does. As I know of it, we never were a production entity. There are protocols of who acceptable production companies are. The chances, as I'm told, of direct contact between the story owner and the broadcast company are slim to none. Prospective shows are screened through acceptable production entities.

That end of the business isn't my forte. I could have that aspect all backwards. Better to get that type stuff directly from Ryan. I'm the book worm over in the corner dusting off old record books and such. I can swing a mean ledger book or card index. That's my element.

 

[Old]

Okay, I detect a large degree of skepticism. Some is certainly understandable. We’ve discussed that.

What I want some of you to think about and consider is our actions along with our words and thoughts.

Some, not all, are looking, digging, for a profit motive in why we are now telling our story as we know it. There isn’t one.

It’s a release valve for the labor and work that has been put into this project. It’s being respectful to the subject we undertook to explore. It’s being true to our word, from the beginning, that when appropriate, we would share what was found with you.

Regardless of TV audience, it’s you guys that are the dedicated soldiers in the quest to find the truth. We may, unfortunately, disagree with things on a personal level. The story, the legend, the quest, the history is bigger and more noble than any of that.

Its perfectly acceptable (when the story is complete) to poke holes in it. To question anything and everything. That’s what we collectively do. We never expected any less.

Arthur questions why the telegram was such a monumental find and so disturbing to us. That’s obvious, at least to me. The telegram takes everything that has been the accepted (and permissible) theory of the Stone Maps and turns it on its head. It takes 100s if not thousands of pages of research and theory, books and pamphlets, and renders them cannon fodder. It puts “us” at odds with everything and everybody who has explored this story for nigh onto 60 years. That’s a big deal!

Putting aside the turmoil that was sure to follow such a discovery; it made our job FAR more complex and put “us” at odds with the story that Clarence Mitchell started.

I can’t get my arms around the logic. Isn’t it far more interesting to explore that “the rocks” may (speculative, but not without sources of collaboration) source back to Adolph Ruth and his murder. That Travis had supported evidence there was a murder, including a perpetrator and the weapon. Here’s a source, very close to the event and a player telling you his account of what happened. That’s far more interesting than why we had to take a moment of silence and contemplation when the telegram was unearthed.

If we were profit driven, there was a much easier way to go here. Easy profit and unfaithfulness to the story would have been to ball up the draft of the telegram and the wiring instructions, burn them and bury the ashes. Tell the simple story and reap the profits similarly to how the story has been exploited before. Quick cash and no one would have been the wiser. Ryan and the family would today be reaping the rewards and at autograph signing events. If profit, notoriety and standing were the objective that was easily within reach. We didn’t do that. We sucked up our fate, changed our course to the longer more difficult path and began again. Our actions speak to the faithfulness to truth. The truth that we set out to find And; keeping our promises to you and the family.

 

[deducer]

Arthur questions why the telegram was such a monumental find and so disturbing to us. That’s obvious, at least to me. The telegram takes everything that has been the accepted (and permissible) theory of the Stone Maps and turns it on its head. It takes 100s if not thousands of pages of research and theory, books and pamphlets, and renders them cannon fodder. It puts “us” at odds with everything and everybody who has explored this story for nigh onto 60 years. That’s a big deal!

The only thing this discovery changes is the crediting of Tumlinson as the modern "finder" of the Stone Maps, and even then, and as I've mentioned before, I've never believed his tale of how he "found" those Stone Maps, and I'm sure not many people do.

This discovery doesn't change anything about the Stone Maps themselves; their provenance and authenticity remains intact regardless of whose hands they passed through.

Ruth and the Stone Maps have absolutely nothing in common with one another.

 

[Cubfan64]

Okay, I detect a large degree of skepticism. Some is certainly understandable. We’ve discussed that.

What I want some of you to think about and consider is our actions along with our words and thoughts.

Some, not all, are looking, digging, for a profit motive in why we are now telling our story as we know it. There isn’t one.

It’s a release valve for the labor and work that has been put into this project. It’s being respectful to the subject we undertook to explore. It’s being true to our word, from the beginning, that when appropriate, we would share what was found with you.

Regardless of TV audience, it’s you guys that are the dedicated soldiers in the quest to find the truth. We may, unfortunately, disagree with things on a personal level. The story, the legend, the quest, the history is bigger and more noble than any of that.

Its perfectly acceptable (when the story is complete) to poke holes in it. To question anything and everything. That’s what we collectively do. We never expected any less.

Arthur questions why the telegram was such a monumental find and so disturbing to us. That’s obvious, at least to me. The telegram takes everything that has been the accepted (and permissible) theory of the Stone Maps and turns it on its head. It takes 100s if not thousands of pages of research and theory, books and pamphlets, and renders them cannon fodder. It puts “us” at odds with everything and everybody who has explored this story for nigh onto 60 years. That’s a big deal!

Putting aside the turmoil that was sure to follow such a discovery; it made our job FAR more complex and put “us” at odds with the story that Clarence Mitchell started.

I can’t get my arms around the logic. Isn’t it far more interesting to explore that “the rocks” may (speculative, but not without sources of collaboration) source back to Adolph Ruth and his murder. That Travis had supported evidence there was a murder, including a perpetrator and the weapon. Here’s a source, very close to the event and a player telling you his account of what happened. That’s far more interesting than why we had to take a moment of silence and contemplation when the telegram was unearthed.

If we were profit driven, there was a much easier way to go here. Easy profit and unfaithfulness to the story would have been to ball up the draft of the telegram and the wiring instructions, burn them and bury the ashes. Tell the simple story and reap the profits similarly to how the story has been exploited before. Quick cash and no one would have been the wiser. Ryan and the family would today be reaping the rewards and at autograph signing events. If profit, notoriety and standing were the objective that was easily within reach. We didn’t do that. We sucked up our fate, changed our course to the longer more difficult path and began again. Our actions speak to the faithfulness to truth. The truth that we set out to find And; keeping our promises to you and the family.

Lynda, it's probably because you haven't been involved in discussions for years around Adolph Ruth's death saga, but Travis' implying that Tex Barkley and Roy Bradford were involved in killing Ruth, and naming a rifle found in a hidden tunnel as the weapon that killed Ruth isn't any more convincing than the half dozen or more other stories told by people who supposedly "knew" who and how Ruth was killed. There's no evidence to back any of it up other than "their word for it," so it just doesn't get that much play.

As far as the maps recovered by Miller in Bradford's camp, I don't know why they would be "more than likely the possession of Adolph Ruth" vs. just another set of old "treasure maps" which most every treasure hunter in those mountains carried around or stored in their camp. Again they're just stories - no better no worse than others we've heard and no more convincing than any others.

Look at it from our end too Lynda. You're giving us days to sift through a number of story lines with very limited access to the things you and Ryan were exposed to for how long now? You've mentioned how difficult of a story it was to put together with all the time and resources you had - gotta give the readers a chance to absorb things and form questions and try to understand the story as it's being told too.

 

[azdave35]

The only thing this discovery changes is the crediting of Tumlinson as the modern "finder" of the Stone Maps, and even then, and as I've mentioned before, I've never believed his tale of how he "found" those Stone Maps, and I'm sure not many people do.

This discovery doesn't change anything about the Stone Maps themselves; their provenance and authenticity remains intact regardless of whose hands they passed through.

Ruth and the Stone Maps have absolutely nothing in common with one another.

i sure do get tired of repeating myself...reminds me of the old joke..peat and repeat....wait until the man lets the entire cat out of the bag before you tear into him.....if you use your noodle and have some patients you just might learn something...most of the members on the forum are keeping their mouths shut and their ears open...alot of guys on here have been waiting a few years for this to unfold ..i dont think they really care about your opinion..they want to hear what was uncovered in texas..the man is finally willing to share and you keep swinging at him....i know he is a little slow about telling the story but it is his story to tell..if you dont want to hear it..then tune out

 

[sdcfia]

i sure do get tired of repeating myself...reminds me of the old joke..peat and repeat....wait until the man lets the entire cat out of the bag before you tear into him.....if you use your noodle and have some patients you just might learn something...most of the members on the forum are keeping their mouths shut and their ears open...alot of guys on here have been waiting a few years for this to unfold ..i dont think they really care about your opinion..they want to hear what was uncovered in texas..the man is finally willing to share and you keep swinging at him....i know he is a little slow about telling the story but it is his story to tell..if you dont want to hear it..then tune out

Folks wouldn't keep picking at this if RG and Old weren't routinely posting things to pick at.

 

[azdave35]

Folks wouldn't keep picking at this if RG and Old weren't routinely posting things to pick at.

lol....and if a frog had wings he wouldn't have to bust his belly jumping around....i've also said this before...i dont give a rats rump about those silly stone maps...they lead to nothing...but alot of people here do and they would probably like to hear the story....if nothing else just for the historical docs that might have been uncovered...alot of you guys are from out of state and dont care about arizona history....but we do

 

[starman 1]

The only thing this discovery changes is the crediting of Tumlinson as the modern "finder" of the Stone Maps, and even then, and as I've mentioned before, I've never believed his tale of how he "found" those Stone Maps, and I'm sure not many people do.

This discovery doesn't change anything about the Stone Maps themselves; their provenance and authenticity remains intact regardless of whose hands they passed through.

Ruth and the Stone Maps have absolutely nothing in common with one another.





Deducer has a good point but I do find it amusing that the same symbol exists on Julia Thomas`s map that appears on the trail maps. Could be nothing. So who put in on there maybe that person is Hidden.

Starman

 

[deducer]

lol....and if a frog had wings he wouldn't have to bust his belly jumping around....i've also said this before...i dont give a rats rump about those silly stone maps...they lead to nothing...but alot of people here do and they would probably like to hear the story....if nothing else just for the historical docs that might have been uncovered...alot of you guys are from out of state and dont care about arizona history....but we do

Dave, you've said that you "couldn't care less about the Stone Maps" only about 400 times. It's okay, we know you're a closet believer in them stones. You're secretly optimistic- nothing wrong with that. Don't worry, those Stone Maps are definitely real and they do refer to a very specific place, and yes, by all appearances, there's a pot of gold at the end of this particular rainbow.

 

[azdave35]

Dave, you've said that you "couldn't care less about the Stone Maps" only about 400 times. It's okay, we know you're a closet believer in them stones. You're secretly optimistic- nothing wrong with that. Don't worry, those Stone Maps are definitely real and they do refer to a very specific place, and yes, by all appearances, there's a pot of gold at the end of this particular rainbow.

deducer..you could not be further off base...i really dont care about those silly maps....i know for a fact the ones in the museum will lead you nowhere..and if you think they will lead you to a pot of gold..then you are just as nutty as the 4000 people before you that have chased them...i've been at this about 35 more years than you and i've talked to dozens of people that have solved the stone maps....but they haven't prospered a penny..matter of fact they have lost everything they own chasing them....most of them wish they never saw those maps now...i bet ryan wishes he had never seen them too...these maps are hokey as can be and anyone that tells me he has them figured out and is right on top of the treasure is in for a rude awakening and an empty hole...matter of fact all these silly maps floating around (paper or stone)...are worthless...thats why julia was selling them for a few bucks apiece....lol...one of these days i will have to host a rendezvous for all the people that have figured out the stone maps...now that would be a reality show

 

[deducer]

deducer..you could not be further off base...i really dont care about those silly maps....i know for a fact the ones in the museum will lead you nowhere..and if you think they will lead you to a pot of gold..then you are just as nutty as the 4000 people before you that have chased them...i've been at this about 35 more years than you and i've talked to dozens of people that have solved the stone maps....but they haven't prospered a penny..matter of fact they have lost everything they own chasing them....most of them wish they never saw those maps now...i bet ryan wishes he had never seen them too...these maps are hokey as can be and anyone that tells me he has them figured out and is right on top of the treasure is in for a rude awakening and an empty hole...matter of fact all these silly maps floating around (paper or stone)...are worthless...thats why julia was selling them for a few bucks apiece....lol...one of these days i will have to host a rendezvous for all the people that have figured out the stone maps...now that would be a reality show

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[sdcfia]

Dave, you've said that you "couldn't care less about the Stone Maps" only about 400 times. It's okay, we know you're a closet believer in them stones. You're secretly optimistic- nothing wrong with that. Don't worry, those Stone Maps are definitely real and they do refer to a very specific place, and yes, by all appearances, there's a pot of gold at the end of this particular rainbow.

I suspect by now that most readers have heard enough about Tumlinson's history of double-dealing in this stone saga, not to mention all the damage control posts defending his character. I agree with azdave35: let's see the historical documents, maps and whatever else can be verified as authentic. Then perhaps an interesting discussion may be held. Many observers want the bigger story, not a Travis soap opera.

 

[azdave35]

I suspect by now that most readers have heard enough about Tumlinson's history of double-dealing in this stone saga, not to mention all the damage control posts defending his character. I agree with azdave35: let's see the historical documents, maps and whatever else can be verified as authentic. Then perhaps an interesting discussion may be held. Many observers want the bigger story, not a Travis soap opera.

exactly...i'd rather see all the evidence and make a judgement on my own that listen to a bunch of nit picking protesters...i see enough of that on the news ...lol

 

[azdave35]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

i'll tell you what i think deducer....i'll give you 2 years to get the stone maps figured out...come with proof and i'll give you exact coords to a bonafide treasure that is within a stones throw from the rendezvous site..outside of the wilderness...this one was found almost 30 years ago...the finder was murdered by a local apache junction resident because he wouldn't tell the man where the treasure is...even under torture....he was silly enough to come to town bragging and showing gold and silver bars off..the murderer went to prison and died there...if you are as good of a researcher as you think you are you should be able to find the newspaper articles on it...i did..and i did it way before internet...at least ryan gives up some of his finds here...you haven't done anything but bum for info and hinder others that do share ...and this treasure you wont find in any book or online anywhere..but it is the most well documented one in the supers....i along with a few others have seen the silver that came from the cave..my guess is in 2 years you will still be scratching your head and swearing you are this ( ) close to the solve of the stone maps...see you in a couple years

 

[Carl995]

i'll tell you what i think deducer....i'll give you 2 years to get the stone maps figured out...come with proof and i'll give you exact coords to a bonafide treasure that is within a stones throw from the rendezvous site..outside of the wilderness...this one was found almost 30 years ago...the finder was murdered by a local apache junction resident because he wouldn't tell the man where the treasure is...even under torture....he was silly enough to come to town bragging and showing gold and silver bars off..the murderer went to prison and died there...if you are as good of a researcher as you think you are you should be able to find the newspaper articles on it...i did..and i did it way before internet...at least ryan gives up some of his finds here...you haven't done anything but bum for info and hinder others that do share ...and this treasure you wont find in any book or online anywhere..but it is the most well documented one in the supers....i along with a few others have seen the silver that came from the cave..my guess is in 2 years you will still be scratching your head and swearing you are this ( ) close to the solve of the stone maps...see you in a couple years

Well Dave....I got to tell ya the stone maps are real........& their doing exactly what their intended to do since they were made 60 years ago!

 

[azdave35]

Well Dave....I got to tell ya the stone maps are real........& their doing exactly what their intended to do since they were made 60 years ago!

you got that right...lol

 

[deducer]

i'll tell you what i think deducer....i'll give you 2 years to get the stone maps figured out...come with proof and i'll give you exact coords to a bonafide treasure that is within a stones throw from the rendezvous site..outside of the wilderness...this one was found almost 30 years ago...the finder was murdered by a local apache junction resident because he wouldn't tell the man where the treasure is...even under torture....he was silly enough to come to town bragging and showing gold and silver bars off..the murderer went to prison and died there...if you are as good of a researcher as you think you are you should be able to find the newspaper articles on it...i did..and i did it way before internet...at least ryan gives up some of his finds here...you haven't done anything but bum for info and hinder others that do share ...and this treasure you wont find in any book or online anywhere..but it is the most well documented one in the supers....i along with a few others have seen the silver that came from the cave..my guess is in 2 years you will still be scratching your head and swearing you are this ( ) close to the solve of the stone maps...see you in a couple years

Haven't you read anything I've had to say about the Stone Maps in the time that I've posted on here? I've had plenty to say about them.

If that treasure thing is what I think it is, I did come across the story long ago and as far as I remember it was far more about the murder than the treasure itself- no sizable bonanza other than the bars the guy was waving around, if I remember correctly. It didn't really hold my interest.