The "Peralta" Stone Maps --- On Their Own

[Old]

River,

I'm not going to step on RG's story. Its his story to tell.

Maybe he'll touch on what Aileen was going through at the time. Maybe not. Its a side story that captures my heart but may not be of interest of others......we will see. Short story is she was dying and knew it. Her total focus was to prepare the way for her soon to be orphan child. Her dead husband's tinker toys didn't hold much of her attention. Other people tell Clarence Mitchell's side of the story different than the version I know. In my version he's not the white knight that rides in to save the damsel in distress. I may elaborate more on that as the days go. At this point suffice it to say; Aileen had more important things on her mind

After Aileen's death the family was beset by treasure hunters and the FBI to-boot. Not by an actions on their part but by the exploitation of the "rocks" by Clarence Mitchell. Their reaction was to duck, cover and deny. Do you blame them?

Edited to reply to your recent post............you are stuck on the "rocks" are fake. I'm telling you they are not fake, they are reproductions of much earlier maps. They lead to very real places in the greater Superstition Range. More is coming soon on that score.

 

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[nobodie]

It's what's on the stone maps that is real.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

SH, wy don't you post the ' to my own satisfaction" regarding Mexican mining law?? You seem to be very knolegible of it

 

[sdcfia]

(deleted by mod-language)....it is history ...might be a good idea to hear everything and then make your judgments

"History would be a wonderful thing - if only it were true". Tolstoy said that. For a good reason, I suppose - although he was one of those Ruskies. I wonder if I'll live long enough to hear it all.

 

[somehiker]

SH, wy don't you post the ' to my own satisfaction" regarding Mexican mining law?? You seem to be very knolegible of it

Cause Mexican mining law as it would apply to your favorite treasure topic AND whatever you claim to "own" forever, doesn't apply to what we are talking about here.

 

[releventchair]

Cause Mexican mining law as it would apply to your favorite treasure topic AND whatever you claim to "own" forever, doesn't apply to what we are talking about here.

You done pickin scabs yet?

You wrote that none of the stones were found on the corners of Reavis's land claim. Why would they need to have been?
A claim was a process. Stones with mysterious maps were not used as claim corner monuments as part of any royal edict.
Reavis's claims of any provenance of a Peralta relic is totally removed from mining law as it existed at the time. Unless you want to show otherwise....

 

[somehiker]

Not as long as they keep appearing, as they seem to follow every comment I make lately, AND wherever I make it....
Or am I not allowed to respond to those particular posts ?
I find it kinda hard to ignore the itch to do a little fencing when that is the case ? It's good practice for tougher arguments and opponents down the road.
Fact is, the stones were never produced, or even mentioned in the evidence presented at Reavis' trial. That he enjoyed a large and fraudulent income and prestige entirely based on his forged documents for some time is also fact. What is NOT fact, and is purely speculation, is that he somehow felt that he needed someone to "find" a few scattered and buried carved stone slabs....without the Peralta name on them......to get away with his bogus claim. So I'm just saying that unless the stones, and others of a similar nature had been found at the four corners which marked his "grant", they would be of no value in a courtroom, for supporting his ownership to it.IMO.
Can you show a precedent for such evidence being used in any similar legal decision prior to or since the Reavis case ?

 

[releventchair]

Not as long as they keep appearing, as they seem to follow every comment I make lately, AND wherever I make it....
Or am I not allowed to respond to those particular posts ?
I find it kinda hard to ignore the itch to do a little fencing? View attachment 1612605
Fact is, the stones were never produced, or even mentioned in the evidence presented at Reavis' trial. That he enjoyed a large and fraudulent income and prestige entirely based on his forged documents for some time is also fact. What is NOT fact, and is purely speculation, is that he somehow felt that he needed someone to "find" a few scattered and buried carved stone slabs....without the Peralta name on them......to get away with his bogus claim. So I'm just saying that unless the stones, and others of a similar nature had been found at the four corners which marked his "grant", they would be of no value in supporting his ownership to it.IMO.

I ain't the mule up a bush...But if you need help I'll cut a switch!

Ya. Peralta stones would not have been the clincher for his claims of a claim based on a grant regardless of where they were found..
Reavis had little of value in the end. Not from lack of trying. Quite creatively.
False land claims were all the rage for a while though and he was by no means alone . Read again of Bowie's attempts again the other night. Reavis was just a wee bit more "colorful" in his claimed evidence.

Seems Tom K. was the early bird in trying to tie Reavis to the stones. Rather than Reavis trying to. If he ever even knew,heard or dreamed of them.....Without a known age ,they could be younger than his demise.

 

[somehiker]

Oh come on guys..........can we PLEASE keep this on an adult level. Is that too much to ask?

There are no deletions. NONE.

The original RG post with the link still very much included as on Page 1, made on July 14, 2018 @11:04 AM.

Peligroza ......I assume that's you Bill, posted a rebuttal on Page 2 dated and timed July 16, 2018 @1:27 PM

RG.......replied to your post at 1:51 PM with a further reply at 2:27 which you ALL may find interesting......

All of that dialog (which is beneficial) is right where you put it. Nothing has changed.

Lets keep this going down the highway between the white lines on a civil level.....Please.

Bill always gets confused when he uses different names.
.......oldtimers disease, I guess.....

 

[Bavarian Joe]

Good morning River,

This is a vicious cycle. I'm going to bow to your wishes on just this one instance to show you what we say has credibility. But.......I want you to know none of us are under any obligation to prove anything to anybody. We do so at our option. Ryan has not yet finished posting the story. He's told you he will post at the end what documents and pictures he is capable to produce. Cut the guy some slack. Wait a time of patience.

Here it is, copied below. The instructions with the cost scribbled at the top and the draft of the telegraph sent. The authenticity of it may not come through the fog of time for you. RG and I have had 3 years to become very familiar with Travis' handwriting and thought patterns. This one isolated document may not have the level of impact to you that it does to us. You are just going to have to give us the benefit of the doubt on some things. Or; just pass this by as not your cup of tea. But.........its extremely unfair to call our integrity into question until you have spent the same amount of time working with Travis' belongings as we have. Its perfectly acceptable to be skeptic. Calling us names is a little premature, I'd think.

It's also ironic that much of the "accepted" story is passed down from third and fourth hand sources with little to no authenticated source or trail of province. But; its accepted as gospel. Yet; we present to you the story, sources and time lines and we are chopped liver.... Its disheartening. So be it, nobody said this would be easy. Do with it what you will. The purpose of this is to introduce what we know into the public narrative, present where possible the evidence to support it, report to you where we draw conclusions based on our finding and separate them from the provable, factual evidence and let the chips fall where they may. We will have done justice to the story we know, correcting where possible misconceptions and furthered the quest for full truth on the subject. That's the motive. What you do with it is your choice.

I know, and I appreciate that some of what is being presented is WILDLY different than what has been the accepted narrative. I get that! I've been where you are. I've felt the confusion and I've felt the ..."well; if that's true, what CAN I believe".... I had weeks and months between discoveries to get comfortable and come to a place of peace with the information as it developed. I fully realize you (all of you) are getting it full on at warp speed. It can be overwhelming. I'm cutting you slack to make that same adjustments to the story as YOU find it acceptable.

View attachment 1612283

View attachment 1612284

Let's see the other side of the telegraph form. Right now, you have two items without a link. Keep in mind, you wouldn't have sent that out as written, not at ten cents a word. Twitter before Twitter was a thing.

 

[somehiker]

Even the photo of the so called "draft" has been cropped, with everything to the left side of what you did post not shown.
Nothing there which points to Miller as the recipient.
And BTW......Ryan has asked for feedback on what he is currently posting, saying that he will reply in his following posts.
He didn't say anything about waiting until he was done with entire story. Who knows ? Folks might lose interest before then.

 

[somehiker]

And now that Ryan has something else to attend to for a few days, as reported by Lynda on the other site, it will allow us to review what has been given so far, and discuss it amongst ourselves. He can respond when he returns. Keep it civil and on topic peeps.

 

[deducer]

Yeap Dave,

John McCain is going to have to answer for that one.....to a much larger power. Kinda unforgiveable.

lyn

yes lyn he will...very soon too....matter of fact he is already paying a penance for it ...long slow death

Sorry I'm late to the party; been traveling abroad for a while.

Anyway, I'm surprised to see both of you ignore the big elephant in the room. Sure, McCain's hands are dirty, but not as dirty as that of the five-time draft dodging, six time bankrupted orangutan whose administration has been very busy gutting the EPA, and killing any sort of industrial oversight as far as protecting national parks.

Some links you can check out:

trump kills regulation mining

trump administration set to advance copper mine


So, it's pretty much a given that you'll have to kiss Hewitt Canyon goodbye, along with 2,400 acres. You want to sue to stop it? Good luck. The government will just take it all the way up to the supreme court which is now within one ratified nomination of being aligned with corporate interests.

Curious to see how long this post will stay up before it gets censored.

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

I am just glad I know where I am going without the need for the stonez. I may be really stoned when I get there to my spot but not thanks to the Peralta (Miller) Stones. Which led me to wonder; if I get vape pens in Vegas and sufficiently imbibe myself I can probably float up the mountain?

I don't need to exercise. I can vape my way to the Mexican Mines.

In all seriousness I find myself having more questions than answers yet again. If Ailleen sold the stones for 1200.00 and Travis somehow bought them but didn't buy them then that means she sold a fraud and made a pretty good chunk of change for the time. Almost half of a brand new car in profit.

The stones weren't made for the Reavis claim in my opinion. I think it was a hoax from the get go. Nobody is going to destroy the original (grey) stone unless it too was fake. We know the current fraudulent stones were manufactured with power tools. The grey stone has been destroyed.

What a wonderful way to cover ones tracks. As far as motive for making a fake in the first place:

1) Money
2) Having secret information (false info), but information to get others to share *their* maps and research.
3) Building tourism in the area
4) TV shows: CBS? What's the frequency Kenneth? That alone ties back into the money issue.
5) To mislead people into looking at the wrong area. Quite clever actually.

YMMV. Everything I have seen is that this story has more holes than a colander.

If you think about it the fakes succeeded or nearly succeeded in all five things! 4 out 5. Quite successful huh?

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

River,

I'm not going to step on RG's story. Its his story to tell.

Maybe he'll touch on what Aileen was going through at the time. Maybe not. Its a side story that captures my heart but may not be of interest of others......we will see. Short story is she was dying and knew it. Her total focus was to prepare the way for her soon to be orphan child. Her dead husband's tinker toys didn't hold much of her attention. Other people tell Clarence Mitchell's side of the story different than the version I know. In my version he's not the white knight that rides in to save the damsel in distress. I may elaborate more on that as the days go. At this point suffice it to say; Aileen had more important things on her mind

After Aileen's death the family was beset by treasure hunters and the FBI to-boot. Not by an actions on their part but by the exploitation of the "rocks" by Clarence Mitchell. Their reaction was to duck, cover and deny. Do you blame them?

Edited to reply to your recent post............you are stuck on the "rocks" are fake. I'm telling you they are not fake, they are reproductions of much earlier maps. They lead to very real places in the greater Superstition Range. More is coming soon on that score.

'Ceptin the fact that the FBI never validated the Peralta Miller Stones. No documentation of that claim anywhere to be found and it would be in the FBI archives and folks have looked.

 

[Old]

Guys, Help me here. I've told you every way possible. The objective here is to tell the story as "we" know it. To provide, within limits not of our making, the documents that were found. The good, the bad and the very ugly.

We are telling you, up front, that when we speculate (which is made clear) its our take on the story. Yours may be different. I am totally open to your interpretation of anything. Lively debate is encouraged. Differing views and perspectives are encouraged. The only time I jump in to clarify is when something we have written is taken in a manner in which it was not meant. If we failed to communicate clearly, we attempt to clarify. Foul balls from left field notwithstanding. Otherwise, what we present is fair game for your commentary.

This is such a clarification. I told you, and I re-state, Travis was a hoarder in every sense of the word. Its to our advantage that he kept so much stuff that other folks would consider trash or trivia. What we have is his handwriting, his thought patterns, his way of wording things, stored with telegraph procedure instructions. That's hard to explain in any other way than the obvious. Your attempts to do so are welcomed.

The finding of "the telegraph" was "new news" to everyone involved, investigators and family alike. Its an anomaly. We struggled with it. To say it was an unwelcomed "ah ha" moment understates the impact. It took everything and dumped it on its head. Our job just went from a relatively simple story to a very complex one. We sat it on the shelf, tried every which way from Sunday to understand it in a way that didn't upset the accepted narrative........we couldn't. It was a game changer.

We had to deal with what was staring us right in the face and put it in context. We had to start again from step one and come forward with the new knowledge that Travis purchased the original stones. He didn't "find" anything. There was an unexplained link in between Travis and the stone makers that existed contemporaneously with Travis' explorations that couldn't be determined by physical evidence. Not with any verifiable evidence we had on hand. We have good evidence of late 1800s existence of stone maps but we don't have a verifiable, concrete trail from that source to the seller in the telegram, nor do we have his/her name. We had rumors, but we all know that's not a concrete chain of evidence. A rumor is easily dismissed as fable. It takes more than just a retelling to make it viable. A rumor is not dismissed out of hand, but it must have some sort of corroborating evidence.

What we did was explore the links and look at matches in time, place, opportunity and motive. With that we could develop a SPECULATIVE trail from point c to point d. You have every right to poke holes in that (once you've read it all) and make a different conclusion. We welcome your thoughts on the subject.

What is not productive is questioning the authenticity of the document and its purpose. Not unless you have hard evidence to back that up. If you do, lets see it.

To each his own in that quest. We knew the "rocks" and other maps did lead to identifiable sites. They aren't random doodles. That's the genesis of "the story".

 

[Cubfan64]

This is jumping way ahead to the end of wherever the story goes, and I want to make clear I'm not requesting or demanding an answer at this time. I'm just trying to get one of my questions out there while it's fresh in my mind and hope it's addressed somewhere within the the story itself...

I'm very curious to learn how what Ryan is calling the "1847 site" was found in such a relatively short period of time when Travis (and many others) spent a decent chunk of their lives trying to figure out where the maps were trying to lead them. I'm guessing the answer is that the information Travis had was only a part of solving the puzzle, and at some point while Ryan Et al. were going through Travis's things, they pointed in directions that others had not pursued and once followed up on (the SOJ? Vatican? etc...?), the rest of the parts of the puzzle were revealed in such a way that the full picture could be drawn and the X on the map was found.

I may be completely out in the woods, but I hope the question I shared is answered in some way.

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

Old,

"To each his own in that quest. We knew the "rocks" and other maps did lead to identifiable sites. They aren't random doodles. That's the genesis of "the story"."

Circular logic again. Modern forgeries are just that. The stones are likely interpretations of "modern", <150 year old maps. You can take the Peralta Miller-Tumlinson Stones and pretty much make them work in many, many places in the Superstitions.

To say that the stones are fake or modern but the data contained within is genuine is pretty darn cheeky if you ask me. Like saying a bootleg movie downloaded off a torrent site has the same quality as a true purchased release. It's actually far worse than that considering there is no way to verify anything you guys are saying other than "the maps do lead somewhere and aren't accidental".

I'll give you that maybe you guys did find something, but whatever it was or wasn't, it wasn't compelling enough for a TV series or a show. So it can't be that big of a find. Furthermore if it led to a treasure and/or theft I am quite certain someone like National Geographic would absolutely love to have the publishing rights. Any researcher worth their salt knows that to truly be accepted in the realm of rigorous science is to be published. Not in a blog or on a forum but in a journal that is peer reviewed. Otherwise this whole thing is just more he/said she said stuff.

I too would like to see what was truly sent as an offer. Your image is cropped and it's almost laughable that Travis sent a telegram in the TELEPHONE age.......

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

This is jumping way ahead to the end of wherever the story goes, and I want to make clear I'm not requesting or demanding an answer at this time. I'm just trying to get one of my questions out there while it's fresh in my mind and hope it's addressed somewhere within the the story itself...

I'm very curious to learn how what Ryan is calling the "1847 site" was found in such a relatively short period of time when Travis (and many others) spent a decent chunk of their lives trying to figure out where the maps were trying to lead them. I'm guessing the answer is that the information Travis had was only a part of solving the puzzle, and at some point while Ryan Et al. were going through Travis's things, they pointed in directions that others had not pursued and once followed up on (the SOJ? Vatican? etc...?), the rest of the parts of the puzzle were revealed in such a way that the full picture could be drawn and the X on the map was found.

I may be completely out in the woods, but I hope the question I shared is answered in some way.

Well as this stretches out it's becoming less believable and more make-believable to me. It doesn't take much to sit down and write a post and include pictures and hard evidence. Doesn't take weeks or months. It could literally take 5 hours and be done.

I've seen that Dan Brown movie too and have the book.

Just my .02 cents. Hope your question is answered.

 

[OldManOfTheRiver]

What is not productive is questioning the authenticity of the document and its purpose. Not unless you have hard evidence to back that up. If you do, lets see it.

To each his own in that quest. We knew the "rocks" and other maps did lead to identifiable sites. They aren't random doodles. That's the genesis of "the story".

Uhm Old,

The burden of evidence is on you and your cohort. Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence. That's how it works isn't it?