tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigos,

CJ I am never bored with real history, and thank you for the suggested read. So much of what is available today are distorted, politically-corrected rehashes it is sickening. What I find to be a worse development are the so-called "historical novels" which are frequently being sold in the NON-fiction, historical section of bookstores where they do NOT belong. We have people buying and reading these (admittedly interesting) historical FICTIONS, and then come to believe that what they read is FACT, and they can point to the spot where they found it, among the non-fiction books as "proof".

Just my opinion but I think Otumba was the "decisive" battle of the whole campaign, and yes there was still much hard fighting that followed in the siege of Tenochtitlan, but once the Aztecs were bottled up, it was really only a matter of time. In researching history, I have been amazed at how many "near run things" have occurred in famous and not-so-famous battles, where a relatively small incident or turn of luck turned the tide of battle and even of war in some cases.

Real de Tayopa, you must be kidding again, I for one LOVE to read of your experiences and adventures in what is a real-life story of a real treasure hunter. Not sure how to ask it in Spanish, but "mucho mas por favor" is what I think would cover it! Please do continue?
Oroblanco

 

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[Cubfan64]

Oro said...

Real de Tayopa, you must be kidding again, I for one LOVE to read of your experiences and adventures in what is a real-life story of a real treasure hunter. Not sure how to ask it in Spanish, but "mucho mas por favor" is what I think would cover it! Please do continue?

I wholeheartedly second that! I think if for some reason the book you're working on is never published, it will be very disappointing to those of us who follow your threads here RDT.

I wish I knew more of the history about the areas you and Oro talk about because I'd love to be able to interject interesting questions, but alas, there's only so much room in my brain anymore and I'm busily cramming alot of other stuff in there these days

Please do continue though - your stories and experiences are incredibly interesting!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Morning ED: Steve Wilson and I are old aquaintances. Here is an old letter that he sent to me before I found Tayopa. I would like to get in touch with him, does the CMJ give instructions on how to contact their aurhors?

Unofrtnately being in Mexico, I will probably not get thoes two issues for my files, they are probably the ones that he promised to send me back then.

Is there any way that you can scan them?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI ED: Thanks for all, I have just sent him an em. IF I ever finish the book, you have earned an autographed free copy.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA me amigo Ed, Real de Tayopa and everyone,
Ed T wrote:

nobody has mentioned a recent article in the ICMJ. It is an article about Tayopa, Guaynopa, and Guaynopita

Thank you for the heads-up - now I only wish we had not let our subscription lapse. I will have to locate a copy of these two issues though.

Something Real de Tayopa mentioned in passing has raised some questions for me:

Real de Tayopa wrote:

There were 7 other fabulous mines operating at the same time as Tayopa, and all were closed for the same reason.

They were La Gloria Pan, La Tarasca, Las Pimas, Tepoca, & Tayopa, plus two others near Caborca.. During the Tayopa search I had to tentively locate them as proof, some exactly as Tayopa and Las Pimas, others to within 200 meters, and finally Tepoca, to a small area.

To this list we must also add Lluvia de Oro ('shower of gold' or 'rain of gold' my Espanol is extremely limited). The first question I have relates to Lluvia de Oro - for Real de Tayopa wrote:

I personally prob know more about the LLuvia de Oro than anyone else alive, including the present owners and operators. It was initially found in the late 1890's by an Indian who ran goats near the spring.

and...

The eastern extension of the vein structure is where the Gloria Pan mine is, but it was worked in the 1630"s much earlier than the Lluvia de Oro

Your version of how Lluvia de Oro was found in the 1890's by an Indian closely matches what I have on it, but from there we diverge - what I had found was that Lluvia de Oro and Gloria Pan were both first discovered and worked by Jesuits in the early 1600s, but lost at (about) the same time due to Indian rebellions. Are you telling us that Lluvia de Oro was not discovered prior to the Indian shepherd in the 1890s? The reason I ask this is not just that it does not match with the version I have read, but also if this is fact, then why should the Spaniard who purchased the secret from the Indio (and rather miserly at that, resulting in his NOT being informed of the location of the other mine) - have made any connection between la Gloria Pan and Lluvia de Oro, if Lluvia de Oro was never known of before that 1890's date? I am confused about this point amigo.

The next issue is not really an "issue" but an observation - for you are saying that all eight of these mines are not lost, since you have successfully located all of them, correct? What does that leave for anyone to search for? Are there other lost mines or rich ledges that have been reported but not found? As tempting as the stolen loot of the successful and persistent bandit La Rana sounds, (and I do appreciate your tossing us this 'bone') one has to wonder whether any of it remains to be found - you said, :

This Rana later went to LA where he purchased a large Hotel with his loot. He returned once with his grandson to recover one of hie caches of loot.

so I would have to wonder why Rana would NOT have simply recovered ALL of his loot, or if he left any, then the value of it must have been so low as to make it NOT worth his bother to retrieve it? Isn't that logical? Then too, a cache of a few stolen bars, unlike a vein of ore in a mountain, can so easily be moved, removed, become hopelessly un-recoverable due to floods, mudslides, fires, etc and if someone HAD successfully found one or more of these caches, would we even know about it?

I am NOT trying to belittle the stolen loot of Rana, but you did mention that the mine owners felt that the loss of "a few bars" was not worth fighting for, correct? So how valuable would it have been, that they felt the loss was not worth defending? I would suspect that Rana's loot, in order to accumulate enough to purchase a large hotel in LA, must have been the proceeds of a number of robberies all totaled up, in which case any remaining amount(s) are likely to be still a "treasure" but hardly anything on a par with la Gloria Pan - or is my logic grown too fuzzy, from months of trying to make sense of some far-out theories? (Too much caffiene is another likely cause, but I refuse to give up the coffee. ) I have a personal preference in treasure hunting, to search for lost mines (for the big reasons mentioned above, a mine simply can't be moved) and have hunted for buried treasures that were NOT mines, but hunting a buried treasure like bandit loot can be very much a wild goose chase - even more so than going hunting for a lost mine. It sounds like your area (Tayopa and region) are not a promising place for a treasure hunter, with so many of the lost mines already found.

Then there are the legality issues surrounding a cache of stolen bars of precious metals - for this is a different kettle of fish from a vein or ore, you have a different type of claim to file and a very different 'ka-ching' if and when you do recover it. At least this is the case here in the USA, where a Treasure Cache claim grants the claim owner a one HALF ownership, the rest going to the government, compared with a mining claim in which the claim owner owns ALL of the minerals. I do NOT know Mexican law viz treasure claims, but would not be the least surprised if it were very similar or even more draconian. Then there is the ownership issue - for under 'antiquity' type of laws, stolen bars of gold or silver, which might be marked by the original owners, could conceivably be classed as "antiquities" or the descendents/heirs of the original owners might file legal claims against the booty, pointing to the fact that they were stolen in the first place as grounds for legal relief. Just my opinion but a cache of stolen loot in Mexico has far less "luster" in my eyes than a lost mine, but that is just my view.

I do think that anyone interested in hunting for a famous lost mine ought to do it soon, while it is still relatively legal - I suspect that the days of treasure hunting are swiftly drawing to a close pretty much everywhere, between the Archies and 'tree-huggers'/ preservationists anyone who continues the pursuit may find him/herself suddenly a criminal due to changes in the law and negative propaganda such as this recent incident:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/09/tech/main4002848.shtml
(Feds Quietly Dig Up 67 Civil War Graves
Secret Exhumations Took Place Last Summer After Mass Looting Revealed By Tipster

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M., April 9, 2008)

Good luck and good hunting amigos, and thank you in advance...
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI my good buddy ORO: All good questions, some a bit out of context. I will answer them as well as I can
**************************************************************************************
you posted-->what I had found was that Lluvia de Oro and Gloria Pan were both first discovered and worked by Jesuits in the early 1600s
~~~~~~~~~~

I have never found such a connection. La Gloria Pan had been lost in the 1600's so why would Chichimoko tell the Spanard anything, nor could he. It is still effectively lost as far as anyone else, besides myself knows.. you will understand this when I post the story of it.
**************************************************************************************
You posted -->have made any connection between la Gloria Pan and Lluvia de Oro, if Lluvia de Oro was never known of before that 1890's date? I am confused about this point amigo.
~~~~~~~~~~

The only connection is that they are on the same mineral zone, but widely separated by miles and very rough country..
**************************************************************************************.
You Posted --> for you are saying that all eight of these mines are not lost, since you have successfully located all of them, correct? What does that leave for anyone to search for?
~~~~~~~~~~~

First, a typo, there are only 7 in total, not 8. When I say that I have successfully located them it is in a figurative way. I can show you to within say one sq mile for most of them, but, except for the Gloria Pan and las Pimas, I certainly cannot point to the portal. What I was saying was that I had located them accurately enough in regards to my needs for the legends to continue.

They are still wide open for any of you to finish with the possible exception of the Gloria Pan which you may just jbe joining me in opening.
**************************************************************************************

You -posted --> so I would have to wonder why Rana would NOT have simply recovered ALL of his loot, or if he left any, then the value of it must have been so low as to make it NOT worth his bother to retrieve it? Isn't that logical?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Agreed it IS logical, except that he had stolen so much that when he went to LA with most of it and bought the hotel, he had no further need for what he had left, since he was now a respecled business man with a high income . According to his family, He returned with his grandson as a sort of adventure for him, besides, it wsn't going anywhere, a sort of earth deposit box for the future.
***************************************************************************************

You posted --> if someone HAD successfully found one or more of these caches, would we even know about it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You aready know the answer to this. heheheh.
***************************************************************************************

You posted --> , but you did mention that the mine owners felt that the loss of "a few bars" was not worth fighting for, correct? So how valuable would it have been, that they felt the loss was not worth defending? I would suspect that Rana's loot, in order to accumulate enough to purchase a large hotel in LA, must have been the proceeds of a number of robberies all totaled up, in which case any remaining amount(s) are likely to be still a "treasure" but hardly anything on a par with la Gloria Pan - or is my logic grown too fuzzy, from months of trying to make sense of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I woud suggest checking the production of the LLuvia d Oro, you will see why they called it that. Miining people came from all over the world to examine it and it's mineralogical structure. Just a present sample ->

"The current mine plan estimates that the mine will produce a total of approximately 100,000 ounces of gold over a four year mine life. The Lluvia de Oro Gold Mine has an additional resource of 113,000 ounces of gold not contained in the current mine plan "

This from a mine supposedly cleaned out in the 40 and 50's. Can you imagine what it was like in it's max hay
day? They could afford to overlook quite a few bars , but I understand that they expected that they would eventually catch him and recover most of them. This wasn't the case with the German assayer.
**************************************************************************************

You posted --> It sounds like your area (Tayopa and region) are not a promising place for a treasure hunter, with so many of the lost mines already found.
~~~~~~~~~~~`

On the contrary, tremendous amounts of valuables and mines are yet to be found. In the sierra of Alamos alone, there were over 50 mines working before the revoloution, now only perhaps 5 can be found. They were NOT worked out.The same applies to over much of northern Mexico. There are still vast areas that are basically still unknown even today except for a few Indians.
***************************************************************************************

You posted --> At least this is the case here in the USA, where a Treasure Cache claim grants the claim owner a one HALF ownership
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In general if you have an agreement with the owner of the land, it is a 50/50 arrangement, unless it is of an antiquities value to the gov't, then they are "supposed "to give you a fair appraised value for whatever they take hmmm..
***************************************************************************************

You posted --> I do think that anyone interested in hunting for a famous lost mine ought to do it soon, while it is still relatively legal - I suspect that the days of treasure hunting are swiftly drawing to a close pretty much everywhere
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you, you and I were priveledged to have lived in it's heyday and enjoyed a freedom that the present generations will never know or understand. We have memories which can never be taken away from us nor duplicated any more. This is one of the reasons that I live in Mexico, despite certain draconian laws, I still have more actual freedom than I would have living in the US.

Ask away my friends.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo,

First I beg to differ, no typo - you mentioned seven mines: La Gloria Pan, La Tarasca, Las Pimas, Tepoca, & Tayopa, plus two others near Caborca to which I said we ought to add Lluvia de Oro, making eight total.

Next - the story of Lluvia de Oro remains unclear - are you saying that it was unknown prior to 1890? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Postscript

Real de Tayopa wrote:

one of the reasons that I live in Mexico, despite certain draconian laws, I still have more actual freedom than I would have living in the US.

I would only add here that there are still a few sites in the USA where one can continue to live in freedom, but will NOT post them here as I plan to get my backside into one of them and can't afford the competition!
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I will be happy to pay for your book when it is done. I would also like it to be signed. Will it be in hardback?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote:

I will be happy to pay for your book when it is done

Ditto

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HOLA ORO you posted -->

the story of Lluvia de Oro remains unclear - are you saying that it was unknown prior to 1890?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Precisely, there were only the 7, "The Magnificent seven" 1

Incidentally, I posted the wrong Luvia de Oro site appol. go to for the present LLuvia de Oro. -->

http://www.mexicohorse.com/Lluvia_de_oro.htm

http://www.mexicohorse.com/Lluvia_de_oro_Photos.htm

However this means that I may get it back since it appears to be caduca, free.

I know this mine and it is capable of big things with the proper setup. I may tie it up unitl I finish Tayopa.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen, IF my wfe doesn't shoot me, and IF oro, or one of you don't help her (dejuicer) I will happily "give" books to all of my friends in here in thanks for "being" my friends.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[arkhunter]

Cactusjumper wrote:

I will be happy to pay for your book when it is done

Ditto

please add me to the book list.



i do hope to talk more with you soon...hope all is well with you


john

 

[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa, is this the very same Lluvia de Oro?

http://www.mexicohorse.com/Lluvia_de_oro.htm

ore sample"

also found this:
http://www.taragoldresources.com/English/Operations/Production/LluviadeOro/default.aspx

and this, among a number of reports online:
http://www.columbiametals.ca/properties/lluvia.php

This part has me confused, for the Indio had supposedly found two long-lost mines and the Spaniard purchased the secret of one (Lluvia de oro) then the Indio refused to tell the secret of the other. If the one was NOT a long-lost mine, why should there have been any kind of connection to Gloria Pan? This does not make sense to me, but then that does not take much any more!
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

after about 12 thousand pages of data in the last 4 days and nights .i have a positive ID on the mine i have found ..this mine was last known as" the Sombrero mine ." it was in fact the sorce of the lost dutchman gold ...it was also known as the tayopa mine found between the years of 1526-1603 also known as a Gonzalo /Gonzales after 1571 by some that did not know the true history of this mine . it then becomes a peralta mine known as the Sombrero mine ... the dutchman on his death bed gives details that his ore dose in fact come from this mine ...

to stop all confussion at this piont on ward the mine will be defind as the Sombrero mine .. and yes i can prove it has been found ...
i have no idea at this piont why there were 3 tayopa mines but IMHO this mine is the one of tayopa mines stated in the treasure trove list of Tayopa found at the Santa ana church in 1912 ....

i have prove .of what i am saying ..

to clear up any confussion , this site 4 is better known as the Sombrero mine ...!

in trying to prove its older related history i lost the basic idea of what i can prove ,

i can prove this is the Sombrero mine ..

i may never be able to prove it was 1 of the 3 Tayopa mines , but i am 100% sure that it is in fact the Sombrero mine and i am going to prove this to NFS...

IMHO this is why Waltz did not give the true location because it would have confermed that he had killed the 3 peralta for the mine ...

in a over sight of the details we see a clear path of ownership of this mine from the early 1500's to the LDM .. how many legends are related to this site is still in question .. but if i am to draw a line and clearly defind the site .....it is the Sombrero mine and that is a fact i can out right prove at this piont in time ...

i found some large jars at the church site and beleive these may have been filled with black powder and what i beleived was a trip string was in fact some kind of fuse . why these jars did not go off when the peralta filled in the mines is in question .. . i believe they coverd over the mine with jars of black powder and some of them did not go off as planed ..

is this what the large black spots are ...? is this where they filled the black powder jars ...?

who knows .. better yet who cares ...later

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning room & ORO: You posted -->

"is this the same Lluvia de Oro?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\

Yes, the first one is.

No , the second one is the one that I mistakenly posted myself. It's location is far to the north west - near Magdelena close to the US Border. It is of recent origin..

No to the third one also, it is the same one as no. 2.
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

This part has me confused, for the Indio had supposedly found two long-lost mines and the Spaniard purchased the secret of one (Lluvia de oro) then the Indio refused to tell the secret of the other.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chichimok's son gave me the details as already told. He did not find a lost mine but a source of gold where he was herding his goats around the spring.. The gold to the north that he refused to show the Spaniard was later found and worked by Tomas Lifer. It was not a mine, but a vein.. More on him later.

Incidentally, the Spaniard never purchased anything, he just filed on it then voluntarily gave that to chihcimoko.
***************************************************************************************

you posted -->

why should there have been any kind of connection to Gloria Pan?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Simply because they existed on the same geological structure , but far apart, in fact, some miles separates
them. La Gloria pan lies to the East of the LLuvia d eOro.

I am posting a crude map of the region to orient yourself.

Ask away my friends, if I can't answer them then I have work to do and am perhaps mistaken -- heaven forbid !!.

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.s. When, or more important, "IF" the book is ever published, I will post asking for names.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning again room:

You are probably asking yourself, or should be, If I have located 5 of the 7 lost mines closely, why haven't I concentrated on the two that I can practically point to the portals. ? Why haven't I opened one up and lived happily ever after?

A) It was a question of simple economics. I had extremely limited funds, they were beirg hoarded for TAYOPA. The finding or proof of the others was simply the required evidence that The legends were probably true, particularly the basic ones about Tayopa.

B) Why the fixation on Tayopa? Simple, I was not shooting for the Moon, the Sun, the Milky way, but for the UNIVERSE itself.

I had documentation on Tayopa that is not available to any other, among which it describes the precise location of the major deposit near Tayopa..

When they realized that they were going to be expelled, they called in all of the production of the surrounding mines which they were working, a 50 mile radius. This metal was stored in the main deposit of Tayopa, but it is not in Tayopa itself, however it is within sight of the capilla / church of Tayopa, but I challenge anyone to find it even if I give them directions. heehh

You have seen descriptions of what is stored at Tayopa. BB can fill you in if need be, but what I had is not this.

To give you an idea and something to play with I will list 3 of the things that are stored there.

A) 610 loads of Au. In that country a load is considered approx. 200 lbs. Estimate only .600 fine bars , 60 % Au and go from there..

B) 1200 bars of Ag , again size and fineness unknown, but fun to play with.

C) A sealed section with maps and documents, THIS I want I have insisted that I have copies of all and exclusive rights to act upon them for 50 years, same as a mine right..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

Good morning again room:

You are probably asking yourself, or should be, If I have located 5 of the 7 lost mines closely, why haven't I concentrated on the two that I can practically point to the portals. ? Why haven't I opened one up and lived happily ever after?

A) It was a question of simple economics. I had extremely limited funds, they were beirg hoarded for TAYOPA. The finding or proof of the others was simply the required evidence that The legends were probably true, particularly the basic ones about Tayopa.

B) Why the fixation on Tayopa? Simple, I was not shooting for the Moon, the Sun, the Milky way, but for the UNIVERSE itself.

I had documentation on Tayopa that is not available to any other, among which it describes the precise location of the major deposit near Tayopa..

When they realized that they were going to be expelled, they called in all of the production of the surrounding mines which they were working, a 50 mile radius. This metal was stored in the main deposit of Tayopa, but it is not in Tayopa itself, however it is within sight of the capilla / church of Tayopa, but I challenge anyone to find it even if I give them directions. heehh

You have seen descriptions of what is stored at Tayopa. BB can fill you in if need be, but what I had is not this.

To give you an idea and something to play with I will list 3 of the things that are stored there.

A) 610 loads of Au. In that country a load is considered approx. 200 lbs. Estimate only .600 fine bars , 60 % Au and go from there..

B) 1200 bars of Ag , again size and fineness unknown, but fun to play with.

C) A sealed section with A sealed section with maps and docum, THIS I want I have insisted that I have copies of all and exclusive rights to act upon them for 50 years, same as a mine right..

Don Jose de La Mancha

if this is true then we do have something to talk about ..." sealed church maps and documents found in the vault by the garden of site 4 "...maybe this is why Tayopa was related to this site in the frist place ...the jars found by me are scoll jars found at site 4 ..

are you looking for jars that look like these ...? http://www.centuryone.com/dssjar.html


or are these what you are talking about ..i like the last picture my self .........

 

[the blindbowman]

ya, the pictures are blury ,but i found two of these jars at site 4 within 30 ft of each other , maybe they are just my over active imagination... maybe not ... lol

let me ask you RDT.,,,,, if you found some scoll jars that matches those used for the dead sea scolls dated around the time of chirst in fact ".The fragments are dated to the Hasmonaean and Herodian periods (1st c. BC – AD 20) " would you look as stupid as i have ,,....trying to figer out how they got to the supersitition mts in the frist place ... ? any theories trying to relate something this old to those sites looks crazy to even me ...it dose not change the fact they are there ...

now you know why i was confused about may dates dont matching ....

i have tryed everything i can think of ,to explan how these jars got there ...


your all so smart how dose dead sea scoll jars get to site 4 ...?

i got to hear this ....any guesses , i welcome any thoeories at this piont ...i have been researching them for over 2 years and i have no idea how they got to this site 4
other then my templar theory ..

now your saying the church in question could have maps and documents stored there ...is this what you mean ..?

 

[Cubfan64]

BB - Are the 4 photos above (not the blurry ones) the actual jars you located? If indeed those are actual jars you found, you appear to certainly be on to something.

The blurry ones are just too difficult to tell what if anything they are at this point.