tayopa, legend or reality ...?

Old Dog said:
BB

what you fail to realise is that on many of the ships that have wrecked of our coasts that carried Spanish loot.
many carried huge unlisted cargos. they were not headed for Spain and therefore felt "His Majesty" had no need to know what the ship carried....
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i agree ,but i am awhere this ....in fact i would be shocked if this wasnt the case . note the gold and silver hidden in bells , makes you wonder who is hideing it ...from who
 

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you also need to note that when recovered the only record of church treasure was recorded at the Vatican not the ship's manifest.
Very little church treasure was recorded as cargo. it was simply listed as "church articles" or "holy objects'

Heaven forbid the king should get hie fingers in the pie.

I doubt you will find any record of many shipments from SJ sources.

Thom
 

HI BB & Old Dog:

OLE HOUN DOG, you are correct.

K BB, I am not going to get into a matching game since you are convinced that everything lies in the superstitions, but I will answer your last post.

BB you posted --> "7 th of March " unless you know the rue locate of tayopa it would not help at all if related at all ..a date is not a navigable piece of date .. date, hours and mintues, secounds could be
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Absolutely correct, which is why no-one ever found Tayopa using it, and why I mentioned that I used it for a "confirmation" check "AFTER:" I had positively identified Tayopa..
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BB posted --> "7 th of March 1600" don't tell me hats how you did it
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He he You are the navigator, how would "You" do it? You have a starting point, now establish your Suns's LOP and see where it goes, definitely not to the superstitions, but precisely to the "Cerro de La Campana , Minaca" in chihuahua..
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BB posted,--> " The only convent mentioned " it stated covent in the treasure trove list
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Hmmm must have missed that . can you repost it?
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BB posted --> Where is this site 4 ?? " Arizona ,in the supers ...lol
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No comment.
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BB posted --> all ship must have a ships log by national mariners law ...a ships manifest can tell you a vast amont of data .about its cargo where the cargo came from and what the cargo was and where it was most likely headed .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To a point agreed, but do you honestly think that "If" the Jesuits were shipping out metal that they would list an illegal mining project's production as such?

Besides, they were not sending metal out of Guaymas, it was much quicker and safer to ship out of the small bays in the vicinity of Matamorros where no Spanish Officials were, and no Spanish records were being made since the ships were Jesuit, or under their control.
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BB posted --> "Hermosilla is far to the North West of the Santa Ana " NO ,it is not , what sant ana are you talking abut .. santa ana is about 105 miles north of Hermosillao near santa ana vieja
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am talking about the Santa Ana West of Yecora, acknowledged to be the location of Tayopa # 2, presently called " Los Dos Padres".

The Santa Ana that you mention is an agriculture town located on the international highway north of Hermosillo, the only possible mining in it's vicinity would be placer operations.

It is approx, 90 miles north of Hermosillo, and some 250 miles south of the Superstitions.


Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Old Dog wrote:
many carried huge unlisted cargos. they were not headed for Spain and therefore felt "His Majesty" had no need to know what the ship carried....
Click to expand...

You are SO right amigo, so trying to find records of ships' manifests carrying booty that was bound for the Vatican would be very much a wasted effort.

Real de Tayopa wrote:
since you are convinced that everything lies in the superstitions,
Click to expand...

As they say - "boy howdy" you ain't kidding! Our amigo Blindbowman has proposed quite an array of different lost treasures and lost mines to be hidden within the Superstition mountains, which in my opinion is really to ignore and/or belittle the actual legends that have solid roots in the Supers and to denigrate the histories of so many other different locations by removing their story and "transplanting" it into the Superstitions. I only recently found that early post by our amigo Blindbowman in which he said his intention quite plainly, that he had a theory that a whole group of famous legends were all rolled into ONE site, and that site is within the Superstition mountains of Arizona. The post my be pulled by now, but along the way - wow - everything from the implements of the Last Supper to the tomb of Montezuma, Templars, Spaniards, Jesuits, Tayopa, the LDM etc. I am willing to grant that it is POSSIBLE that more than one legend is actually talking about the same site, but have to have solid evidence to convince me. You have given me an idea, amigo... :sign13:

The various bits of evidence that Blindbowman has mentioned are certainly tantalizing - leather bags, pieces of broken pottery and glass, stone arrow points, iron nails in the form of a 'cross'...it would sure have me scratching my head. If only we had some good close-up photos of the pottery shards, we do have some 'experts' in pottery here among the T-net membership who might be able to identify them, and/or the glass pieces.

Blindbowman amigo if your sites are all these things, who covered them up? You have probably posted the answer previously but I am that lazy that I would rather just ask it again, if you wouldn't mind reminding me? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

frist you fill the room with the totally abstract things that look to be total unrelated .... over time the think tank will focus on the topic at hand and an random or bastract data that dose fit the topic will remain part of the focus what is not will be lost along the way ...

thus our goal was not mine ....

i will go back and investigate site 4 ... other thn that i have a lot of work to do for spring clean up ..
 

Blindbowman wrote:
frist you fill the room with the totally abstract things that look to be total unrelated
Click to expand...

So I take it you are saying that at least some part of the artifacts are not related to the site? That is interesting... :wink:
Oroblanco
 

Oroblanco said:
Blindbowman wrote:
frist you fill the room with the totally abstract things that look to be total unrelated
Click to expand...

So I take it you are saying that at least some part of the artifacts are not related to the site? That is interesting... :wink:
Oroblanco
Click to expand...
/


No, it mean i am not answering any more questions ... if you want to know go look for your self .. i am rewireing aburn and i just dont have time answer questions every day .... if you want the answers bad enough you'll go find out for your self ...

stay safe stay free ...

dont worry i wont ask any more question ether , fair is fair ..later
 

Blindbowman wrote:
No, it mean i am not answering any more questions ... if you want to know go look for your self .. i am rewireing aburn and i just dont have time answer questions every day .... if you want the answers bad enough you'll go find out for your self ...

stay safe stay free ...

dont worry i wont ask any more question ether , fair is fair ..later
Click to expand...

Hmm I see amigo and can understand the lack of time completely. I guess that I have my answers. Good luck and good hunting, I hope you (and everyone here) find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

Good Morning ORO: There were 7 other fabulous mines operating at the same time as Tayopa, and all were closed for the same reason.

They were La Gloria Pan, La Tarasca, Las Pimas, Tepoca, & Tayopa, plus two others near Caborca.. During the Tayopa search I had to tentively locate them as proof, some exactly as Tayopa and Las Pimas, others to within 200 meters, and finally Tepoca, to a small area.

Shall we discuss some of these? Maybe one will help BB lock in his data?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

HOLA mi amigo Real de Tayopa,

Real de Tayopa wrote:
La Gloria Pan, La Tarasca, Las Pimas, Tepoca, & Tayopa, plus two others near Caborca
Click to expand...

I noticed that you did not mention Lluvia de Oro? Was this not also operating in the same period as Tayopa? I am aware that this one is not "lost" whatsoever, but it was lost for at least a century. From what I read, knowing the location of Lluvia de Oro is the "key" to finding La Gloria Pan, but unless one knows what the "key" is (distance, bearing, landmarks) it is not much help. Since you have tentatively identified the true locations of these mines, perhaps one of them is accessible enough to be able to put into production, which might provide the financing to get Tayopa back into operation? It would depend upon whether there were enough reserves remaining, and that no one else already owns it of course. Alternatively, one might simply locate and denounce the mine(s) only to sell them to mining companies. Selling the claims would not generate as much profit as operating the mines but might be enough shekels to get Tayopa going? (A side note here but I do hope that you will consider having a few bullion bars or rounds made up from the ore of Tayopa, stamped with your Tayopa symbol, for sale to some of your admirers here? Just a thought, but I would sure want to buy one!)

I don't know if these would be helpful to our amigo Blindbowman or not. To be honest I have been fairly astonished with some of the claims BB has posted here on T-net, including that he had found the LDM, that what he has found is Tayopa (and that your discoveries are simply something he cannot venture a guess as to what they are) etc and his insistence on defining his discoveries as being older than recorded Spanish colonization of Arizona, yet he dismisses the possibility of any ancient "Arizonan" native culture like the Hohokam, which has had a real presence in the region. Instead he insists it has to be Aztec. From what I gather, his main reason for identifying his sites with Tayopa all can be traced to the Tayopa Treasure List document, which is actually a questionable document on some grounds as to whether it is even genuine. The number of different claims have led me to conclude that at least some of the information Blindbowman is obtaining is symbolic in nature but he insists it is all literal, therefore the tomb of Montezuma has to be there etc. Only Blindbowman could say whether these other famous lost mines that operated contemporaneously with Tayopa would help in his explorations or hinder them, and he has said that he will not answer any more questions.
Oroblanco
 

Roy,

I don't believe there is any such thing as, "Montezuma's Tomb", unless you consider all of Mexico a tomb. There is sufficient historical documentation to indicate that Moctezuma II was either buried in, or close to, Tenochtitlan or that his body was "burned and turned to dust". The later is the most likely scenario

Moctezuma was found dead by the Aztecs....of knife wounds. "Near him lay many noblemen and great lords who had ben held prisoner with him. All of them had been slain shortly before the Spanish soldiers abandoned the building." Had Moctezuma been found alive, the Aztecs planned to kill him.

Take care,

Joe
 

HOLA mi amigo Cactusjumper,

I didn't think you were convinced of our amigo Blindbowman's claim that the tomb of Montezuma is in the Superstitions. The version you are quoting (if memory serves) comes from "The Broken Spears" an Amerindian version of events, correct? We also have the alternative (Spanish) version which has Montezuma killed by the injuries he got from being stoned by his own people. I don't know any reason to look for his tomb outside of what was then Tenochtitlan (Mexico city, generally speaking today) but until and unless someone actually finds his "tomb" I don't see that we can say it is 'impossible' for that emperor to have a tomb that could be somewhere else.

That said, I would be VERY surprised if the tomb of Montezuma were to turn up in the Superstitions, and have my own reasons for this position - for instance we know that Montezuma was, at the time of his death, held in very LOW esteem by his own people and close relatives. Whether the stoning incident (if it happened) resulted in his death or not, if Montezuma were truly loved and honored by his people, it seems unlikely that they should have been stoning him for calling on the people to calm down. Another stumbling block has to do with the burial rites of the Aztecs - for example; I only recently learned that they practiced cremation of their ruling elite, which would not leave a body to have a tomb. It is conceivable that a tomb could be built to hold the ashes of the dead, but then we fall into the next stumbling block - namely the actual situation on the ground at the time. For we know that the Aztecs had become aroused and were (if not in actual fact) becoming ready for open war - hardly a time when the necessary manpower, rituals and offerings would be available to prepare any kind of "great" tomb or funereal procession. (This is one of the key reasons why I have strong doubts about the Arizona myth of Montezuma being buried at or in Montezuma Head, but that is an aside) If we look at the time period following the death of Montezuma, the Spanish were driven out of Tenochtitlan in a violent battle, the neighboring tribes supporting the Spanish mustered their forces in their home cities and towns, while those still being loyal to the Aztecs assembled outside of the city (around the lake) where they soon had a battle with the Spanish, (Otumba) which (fortunately for Cortez) came out a tactical victory for the Spanish. The whole campaign is (in my opinion) one of the most fascinating military campaigns in history, and I rank Cortez among the "great captains" of all history - as Clausewitz wrote, a great general is not measured by victories alone but also by surviving tremendous defeats, and Cortez not only survived el Noche del Triste but went on to ally with the Tlaxcalans (spelled?) and build a small flotilla of gunboats on the lake surrounding Tenochtitlan and the rest as they say is "history". Cortez being able to win at Otumba (where he and his cavalry really made a difference) so soon after the retreat from Tenochtitlan says something about his abilities as a military leader as well as some reflection on his ability as a diplomat.

Once the Spanish and their Tlaxcalan allies had successfully cut all the possible escape routes around the lake and laid seige to the city, I don't see how the body of Montezuma or anyone else could have been smuggled out. Heck even the last emperor Cuautemoc (again how to spell this correctly?) was captured when he attempted to escape the city and muster more troops and aid from the countryside.

So in order for our amigo Blindbowman's theory of the tomb of Montezuma being hidden within the Superstition mountains, the body would have had to be taken out of the city in the period while Cortez was busy building his inland fleet of gunboats. This surreptitious funereal procession would have had to slip past huge forces of hostile Amerindians, then traverse over 1000 miles of rugged terrain with no real "roads" to reach the Superstitions, then create a tomb (dig out a tunnel or shaft, or find a cave? I am NOT real sure of this part of his theory) lay the despised emperor to rest, then spend X amount of time and labor making sure there was no trace of their ever passing. Then anyone in the funeral troop must either have sworn never to say ONE WORD about it or they were killed on the spot or committed suicide etc? Again I just am not that solid on Blindbowman's theory as to how this was supposed to work, and he never answered several questions that might have shed some light as to how he thinks this happened.

Anyway I have to admit that I have not been able to agree with our amigo's theory either, for the various reasons we have discussed. Had Blindbowman said that he felt Montezuma is entombed in or near Montezuma Head, where we do have an Amerindian legend that would support it, I would still have most of the same reasons NOT to agree, but at least we would have some kind of support, though that would be mere "legend". I have said several times that perhaps these 'visions' or remote-viewing information that Blindbowman is receiving and relying on are in fact symbolic, yet when I asked him about this possibility he insisted that everything he has received is literal. I find that a rather ironic twist, that a person like Blindbowman, whom is so clearly drawn to mysterious codes and symbols, simply refuses to consider that the information he has accumulated about the Superstitions might just be symbolic, in which case he would still have an amazing mystery to try to work out - that could still lead to an amazing discovery.

I realize that Blindbowman will not answer any more questions, but I do wonder what it might mean if his information were in fact symbolic instead of literal? Suppose his vision of Montezuma was supposed to mean a "great chief" and the Tayopa treasures were supposed to indicate not literally Tayopa but a "great treasure". Then there was the five gallon jugs of nitroglycerin - what if this were symbolic and not literal? Couldn't it be interpreted symbolically as something "dangerous", perhaps something that could be deadly if disturbed carelessly like a stone death trap? Couldn't it also be interpreted as something "explosive" as in the news media usage of that term, something that might stand the historians on their heads? Would it make his discoveries any less important or shocking, if it turned out to be a lost tomb of a Hohokam king, a Pima chief or a great Apache warrior, complete with a treasure of some kind? Heck we know that the people who built Casa Grande certainly were capable of creating a tomb for their kings or leaders. However as he insists that his remote-viewing information is entirely literal and NOT symbolic, the point is moot - I can't even get him to consider that possibility.

Oroblanco
 

HI MY Friend ORO: to bring you up to date My wife had a 1/3 interest in the Lluvia de Oro , but we lost it when the title holder, 'chu chu Molino " let it go for taxes without notifying us, grounds for justifiable homicide? There were two brothers that had it and lived in Cuatemoc, Chihuahua. Chu chu lived at la Lluvia working a small taubena, drag rock mill. The Llivia ran approx. 60% Au, but was in bonanza quantities, hence the name "Rain of gold".

I personally prob know more about the LLuvia de Oro than anyone else alive, including the present owners and operators. It was initially found in the late 1890's by an Indian who ran goats near the spring.

He periodically brought gold down to near El Fuerte where he traded them for supplies. A Spaniard noticed this and opened a Store near the river and extended credit to the Indians hoping to gain their confidence and learn of the source. This failed, so he hired a vaquero that was well liked by the Indians to mix with them and buy plenty of liquor.

One night when the vaquero had the discoverer with him getting drunk, he pretended to pass out . The Indians, being drunk and thinking that they were clever, commenced to talk of the discovery. He listened very carefully, then early the next morning reported back to the Spaniard who then denounced the location.

The Spaniard then called the Indian and told him " you had this but you did not protect it, I did, but to be fair take several loads of gold and a bull to help make it well between us. also whenever you need goods just come to the store" . he then had a bull killed but kept the hide,=. the Indian was very upset since the hide was worth more than the meat and said "I will never tell him where the (northern) extension is"., he never did.

The eastern extension of the vein structure is where the Gloria Pan mine is, but it was worked in the 1630"s much earlier than the Lluvia de Oro... Want the story and my search on this also?

I can fill pages of data on what I know of the Lluvia, but some of it is still confidential since I still have my sights on the LLuvia. However I will if you, or the others are really interested, since I am primarily interested in finishing Tayopa.

Regarding Tayopa, I personally now have all of the capital I need for it, no problem Oro. It will be finished, but correctly.. ©@

Don Jose de La Mancha
P.S. It was while I was on the search for the Gloria Pan that I encountered that giant serpent in the Rio Fuerte river. It was an estimate 80 ft long and about the size of a large telephone pole. Perhaps BB can elaborate on these serpents?©@

So shall we modify this post to include other mines? Perhaps some of the data might be of help to BB. And they were important in proving the existance of Tayopa and eventually finding it

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

HOLA mi amigo Real de Tayopa,

Real de Tayopa wrote:
My wife had a 1/3 interest in the Lluvia de Oro , but we lost it when the title holder, 'chu chu Molino " let it go for taxes without notifying us, grounds for justifiable homicide?
Click to expand...

Wow that is horrible. I would have to agree, yes it is justifiable homicide. What recourse do you have, if any? Does Mexican law allow a challenge to the tax seizure since at least one of the owners of the property were not property notified? Many states allow this, however there are generally time limits involved so it would be worth checking into as quickly as possible. Alternatively, perhaps the tax deed can be purchased from the current owners, or if the taxes are high simply wait and watch for the new owner(s) to fail to pay the taxes.

Real de Tayopa also wrote:
The eastern extension of the vein structure is where the Gloria Pan mine is, but it was worked in the 1630"s much earlier than the Lluvia de Oro... Want the story and my search on this also?
Click to expand...

I hope that you will write up this, either for publication in one of the treasure magazines or for inclusion in your book. I look forward to reading it!

Real de Tayopa also wrote:
P.S. It was while I was on the search for the Gloria Pan that I encountered that giant serpent in the Rio Fuerte river. It was an estimate 80 ft long and about the size of a large telephone pole. Perhaps BB can elaborate on these serpents?©@

So shall we modify this post to include other mines? Perhaps some of the data might be of help to BB. And they were important in proving the existance of Tayopa and eventually finding it
Click to expand...

I do remember you mentioning this bizarre encounter - but cannot recall what color it was? I presume you have searched through photos & descriptions of the various snake species, what (if any) species would you say looks to be the closest in resemblance? Gracias por adelantado...
Oroblanco
 

Roy,

"The Broken Spears" was not the source for my last post. I went to the writings of Fray Diego Duran for the quotes. If you are up for a little light reading, I would suggest "The History of the Indies on New Spain". The translation by Doris Heyden is a wonderful version. Another great read for those who are interested in that history, is: "The War of Conquest: How It Was Waged Here in Mexico" (The Aztec's Own Story as Given to Fray Bernardino de Sahagun). The English version is by Arthur Anderson and Charles Dibble.

I have a number of books on the Aztecs, and have been reading their history for a number of years. My memory ain't so good anymore, but I still know which books to pull off the shelf.....for assistance. :icon_study:

It is written in the Historia that "the cadavers of Motecuhzoma and all the others were burned and turned to dust, without honors or solemnity of any kind. It adds that in order to make the vengeance complete his children and wives were sought out and killed."

The battle at Otumba was almost the end of Cortes and his army. The Spaniards were on the defensive and being attacked from every side. There were so many Aztec's "that they eclipsed the sun". :icon_sunny:

"It was at this moment that Cortes saw a banner flying on a small hill in the plain and next to it an Aztec captain who, judging by his insignia and weapons, was a man of great valor and rank. This man spurred on his soldiers from the hill and inspired by him the Indians found their strength, attacking and greatly harming the Spaniards. Cortes then leapt on a colt that one of his soldiers had brought along. This beast had been barely tamed and was strong and spirited. With a lance in his hand, crying out to Our Lord with invincible faith, Cortes alone-in what the other soldiers saw as a rash action- charged against the Indians. He passed through their ranks and reached the place where the man stood with the banner. The other Aztec had not been able to stop him, so when Cortes reached this point he struck the man with his lance. The enemy captain fell to the ground dead. When his followers saw this, they all dispersed and began to abandon the field........."

This act of........whatever, saved the day for the Spaniards.

The true stories of this time and place are better reading than anything bb could ever dream-up.....In any state of mind. :tard:

Hope I didn't bore you.

Take care,

Joe
 

Good Morning Oro mi amigo / compadre: the Lluvia de Oro episode was in the late 50's. My wife did not appear in the title in any form, so she had no legal recourse. At that time the only access was by mule, although the Diputado de Chihuahua, believing that the mine had been abandoned, constructed a bull dozer assisted, very bad road to the mine in order to salvage whatever equipment that he could, and to break up the others for scrap metal.. The stamps, cyanide tanks, and steam powered AC generators were still intact as well as a no of the houses.

A bandit called La Rana was a consistant robber of the Lluvia shipments to Choix. The Jefe (chief) of the mule trains had standing orders to not to resist since the owners were producing so much Au & Ag that they did not consider the loss of a few bars worth a life. This Rana later went to LA where he purchased a large Hotel with his loot. He returned once with his grandson to recover one of hie caches of loot. There still remain perhaps 5 more of which I have general knowledge.

When I first went there Chu chu had just found and opened an old closed working / tunnel. . We left it open all night to allow air to enter, then the next morning entered to explore it, it had been closed since 1908. It was fascinating, sandal and bare foot prints appeared as if they had just been made, it was hard to believe that the authors had died long ago..

The tunnel went north for perhaps 50 meters, then turned west for 20 meters were they had dug a shaft about 10 ft deep which was full of crystal clear water in which silver ore could be seen sparkling on the sides and bottom. The tunnel then turned north for 35 meters and stopped. On the face was a silver vein that dipped from the right to the left about 45 *, It was almost 2 ft wide, and "very" hi grade. Later I found records in which they did not consider working it since they were looking for Gold and just abandoned any further work.

One day chu chu took me to the north eastern Entrance. It was about as high as a Church, 90 ft, they had just stoped out the area. Up in top, where a piece of the roof had fallen, was a huge piece of gold showing, about the size of a foot ball. He wanted to know if I had any ideas on how to get it. The Lluvia had been stripped of everything by the Diputado. I suggested that he simply shoot it down with his old Winchester 30 30, which he did hehe. Modern mining?.

As I mentioned, I can go on for pages on similar silly episodes as well as technical ones on the Lluvia de Oro mine and the others, but only if anyone is actually interested in the musing of a Tropical Tramp.

This was all involved in the search for the legendary Jesuit mine of Tayopa, The Lluvia was the stepping stone for The Gloria Pan which lies approx 6 miles to the East. on the Balajaque arroyo. The Gloria Pan was necessry for The Tayopa legend to have any substance.

Shall we talk for these mines and the search for them?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Good morning CJ; The Spanish early adopted the famous Roman Square for defensive work. In this they have perhaps 25 - 50 men to a side with the others inside of the square as reserves. In this configuration the Spaniards never had more than an equal no. of the enemy attacking at any one time, even if there were 100,000 out there..

The Indians were so closely packed trying to get to the Spaniards, that they interfered with each other's fighting ability, while the Spanish gave each other room to swing their swords or whatever weapons they used, In no way was it an equal contest. especially with the Aztec ritual / habit of trying to capture a Spaniard alive for their sacrifice. It can almost be equated to cutting a row of corn down. chop, slash, next Aztec, stab slice, next Aztec. and on for hours.

However, in no way does this take away from the Spanish, they were tough fighters, even if ruthless. Actually once Cortez burned their ships, they had no choice to survive.

The most killed on Cortez' side in these battles were their Indian allies who fought the Aztecs on their own terms.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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