tayopa, legend or reality ...?

HOLA cazadores del tesoro,

Real de Tayopa - number one was the one I thought was most likely correct, and what a neat one. The second one I suspected to be simply that they tacked on that name Lluvia de Oro, not that it really was that mine. I also found a mining company that took that name as well, operating somewhere.

Blindbowman - El Sombrero? You are aware that someone else has already claimed to have found the Sombrero mine right? His name is John V. Ramses and he wrote a book on it, which was published around 1999 or 2000. I have not read his book and cannot say whether his claim to have located the mine are true or not, but if you are that certain you have found El Sombrero, I think it would be worth your while to get a copy (library loan is the cheapest way I have found) and compare notes. The title is “Quest for Peralta Gold”, and Ramses claims that he deciphered the Perfil Mapa to locate the mine - I don't have a copy or I would offer to lend it. Next point - you said you found some jars at your site - and have now made the leap in logic that they must be something that was used for gunpowder? Why should they use jars for blasting instead of cheaper clay pots or wooden barrels or kegs? Or do you mean clay pots instead of jars? If you found blackened areas on the rock, the blackening could be caused by simple fires - remember one of the oldest and cheapest methods of cracking rock was just to heat it up HOT with fire, then throw water (or sometimes vinegar, if available) onto the hot rock which made it crack and split. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between stone that has been blasted and that which has been "blasted" by the use of fire and water.

Blindbowman wrote:
your all so smart how dose dead sea scoll jars get to site 4 ...?
Click to expand...

Who says they are Dead Sea scroll jars at your site 4? Could they not also be simple clay pots made here in N America? I would suggest getting an expert opinion on them, which can be done without even telling the expert where the jar(s) are, with decent photos. In fact I would suggest that you don't tell the expert where you found them, sort of as a "blind test". I have done this with several artifacts discovered in the Americas with surprising results. Until then I think it is too early to ID what the jars are or where they came from.

Blindbowman also wrote:
i am just a shadow walker shape shifter and a old school shaman skinwalker i dont know much that could help my self let alone others .... i walk between the realies of many worlds yet i know little focus beyond that witch you know now ..


i am a witch, a wysard ,a war lock ,with out the taste of a bloody war to give me a reason beyond this page of delite ... i will watch and i wil see . will i wonder to be ...?
Click to expand...

Mi amigo when you post statements like these, it is difficult to take them seriously. Suppose I were to say similar things, what would you make of it? Would you think I was telling you facts or would you think I was just pulling your leg?

One last point in reference to El Sombrero and I will close this post before it gets too long - when we talk about finding a MINE, the one thing that makes a MINE is the ORE that is found and produced in it; otherwise it is simply a prospect tunnel or shaft that produced NOTHING but blood, sweat and tears. As we know there were MANY Dutch-hunters active in the Superstition Mountains in the period AFTER the death of Waltz, and we know that these folks did a LOT of digging and tunneling with little to show for their efforts and expense, I would hesitate before naming any kind of old diggings a "MINE" until I had some of the ORE that came from it that would prove it was actually a MINE and not simply an old prospect hole. Does that make sense, or am I just whistling dixie? As the story of El Sombrero is the story of an old GOLD mine, then it would make sense (to my admittedly primitive mind) that we ought to see at least some kind of showing of GOLD recovered from it, which would help to seal the case and prove that it is in fact a GOLD MINE. I know some guys want to see huge stacks of gold bars, well I don't need to see anything like that - but even a relatively small sample of ore will say volumes in my view. Of course perhaps I am simply far too conservative in my approach to the subject of lost mines.
Oroblanco
 

Thank you Cactus, I know of the book... but thanks for the heads up. And yes I would like their email. Ya' never know.
I'm still working on my GC legend.
Janiece
 

Roy,

Not only did the fire and water crack/split the rock, it made it easy to pulverize it with a harder rock. Ancient science.

Take care,

Joe
 

this may be the only reason i go back .. to take test samples .. this would be my 4th time across a America to collect evidence on something i was not looking for in the frist place ...

you will have to wait till i go back if i do ...

and yes i saw a write up on that book and i have it saved ,,but i know what a old camp fire looks like ...wow if you cant get past that dont become a tracker ....lol

alot of treasure hunters say a lot of things ,,, but can they prove it .....next step 4th expedition ....expedition 3B

workings and mines are two diffrent things and i agree with your over sight ....

well if you dont see the church and out buildings and gardens and mine shaft and surounding village you could be right ,,,lol

the dutchman left very clear discription of the mine it self and related the site to the peralta . this is that mine , i dont think it is , i know for a fact it is , by its discription alone . there is little to no chance it could be misteaken for any other mine .. so yes without adout this is the Sombrero mine .. i dont know what he found .i guess it wasnt the Sombrero mine LOL .after i go back and get test samples and prove it is the sombrero . if you want me to tell him , i well be glad to ...

thats how sure i am this is the Sombrero ...you can call it the dutchman mine if you wish ,.i can prove this is where the dutchman got his ore from ...

the only question i ask at this piont is what will be coverd by the treasure trove premit .. at a site that spans over 500 years and a few diffrent legends , thats why i went back to see what i can prove and can not prove ,, i would not make evidence for the NFS public unless i want to .. and this mine and treasure troves will be done with full premits or it can stay where it is ...

yes ,i have seen many digings by treasure hunters ... even some nice shafts and workings , even some tailing piles ... in fact , i found dozens of them over a 9 mile area ..

this mine dates to around 1600's or older , hand dug , hand tools , no shoring ...a vein chaser ...

it made me wonder why some one would cover it with black powder yet shows no signs of being worked with black powder ...but i soon figerd out why ..no one has been at or work this mine in at lest 100 years or more , its very well hidden and the odds of omeing across it without knowing where it is are very slem to none ..

maybe 200,000 to 1 , even a good miner would not locate it ...with out years of hard hunting ...and the right skills ...


he did not find the Sombrero mine ,... i dont know what he found ,i dont even care .if he had found what i found ... it would be all over the news by now lol ...

i dont want the state and goverment to take over the site before i can defind what is there for the premits .. there is not going to be a coverup of this site ...

no ,",i think you are talking to the man that found the Sombrero mine/LDM " ....
 

...this is that mine , i dont think it is , i know for a fact it is...
Click to expand...

Imagine what one could buy if they collected $100 from ever person who's ever uttered the above in regards to the Superstition Mountains :) Just in the last few weeks I've seen at least 3 almost identical claims of "fact."

Being a scientist, hearing the word "fact" tossed around indescriminately is like hearing fingernails on a chalkboard - it drives me nuts :tard:!

That said, I wish you luck in proving your theory BB - I still like the "outside of the box" thinking, but sometimes the area outside of your box seems mighty vast :wink: Anyways, I still do hope you locate something interesting and important out there and can prove it - I believe such things exist in the Superstition Mountains.
 

Cubfan64 said:
Imagine what one could buy if they collected $100 from ever person who's ever uttered the above in regards to the Superstition Mountains :) Just in the last few weeks I've seen at least 3 almost identical claims of "fact."

Being a scientist, hearing the word "fact" tossed around indescriminately is like hearing fingernails on a chalkboard - it drives me nuts :tard:!

That said, I wish you luck in proving your theory BB - I still like the "outside of the box" thinking, but sometimes the area outside of your box seems mighty vast :wink: Anyways, I still do hope you locate something interesting and important out there and can prove it - I believe such things exist in the Superstition Mountains.
Click to expand...

Thats a fact.... ::)
 

Hi... please forgive my ignorance, but could someone direct me to the Dutchman's exact words describing the mine?
I know some of the legends, but I guess I missed something.
Janiece
 

OHIO BB: You posted -->

yet shows no signs of being worked with black powder ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am curious , what signs would you consider as showing that they used black powder in mining?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

BTW, this thread and the one that started it, is wonderful!!
The banter makes us all think, anything that makes you think through a different prism and can lead to wondrous discovery.
LOL... I'm not a Treasure Hunter like you all, but the history and back and forth is really something special.
I understand that no one wants to give away their own special 'secret idea' for the treasure where ever that treasure may be. I recognize the time and how much heart goes into these searches. Its amazing. I've been on a news group that I mentioned for 10 yrs, with Professors and maybe a best selling writer, and they have nothing on this group.
Reading all of you guys and even when it gets seriously arch... (remember I went back and read thru the flames.)
What a gift this is, all of these adventurers, cowboys and computer people, scientists are all coming together for just a few minutes a day.
This is part of what I would like to capture, maybe put into words... or film, or just my journal.
Thank you
Janiece
LIVE
OA
V U
E G
H
 

HI Janiece: First, clarify the word "Gossamer", is it in reference to a certain deep sea recovery vessel, or a males dream? Sorry to have to ask, but I live a very secluded, quiet life down here, and am not up on the modern terminology. I certainly would not wish to make a social booboo.

As for esoteric, etc., conversations, we can get serious also, we go from the ridiculous to the sublime. For serious, educational conversations, merely go back to the discussion on Coffee, very informative, especially on the unusual flavorings and textures that may be added to it, thanks to djuicy and ORO..

Do you like animals? If so, may I invite you to go for a ride with me into the desert on my lovely Mule under a full tropical moon ?

Oro turned me down, so did djuicy, sniff, they'll be sorry..when they see me riding off with a beautiful gal

Bb is my very good friend, even IF he is trying to steal my beloved TAYOPA, but we both reserve the right to analyze (?) each other's fantasies ? No, that isn't the correct word, that only applies to djuicy, we are serious. I think?.

Don Jose de La Mancha - alias Till Eulenspiegle

p.s. I almost forgot, to keep this in line with the title, BB what are the dimensions, textures, designs, and colors on your jars?

p.p.s I will see if I can find the picture of the "out of focus" 7 Gold bars, honest.
 

Ah... my secret name. It makes you think of beautiful fairy light and beauty.
Ha! Do you see my avatar? The big orange monster getting a manicure, well his name is Gossamer. I love the dicotomy. Just a big orange guy wearing white tennis shoes, even Chuck Jones couldn't tell me why they named him that.
I identify with both charactors.
The ride... ahhhh, I don't know what country you're in... how could I go for a ride.
AZ is very hot today... and its just the start.
Ya' know, the more research I do the more I'm convinced that legends are true words, spoken as if in a wind storm. Lost from truth.
lol
Janiece
 

everything around me knows me .. the great river and the passing winds , the sweet earth beneth my feet .the warm sun on my face . the awakeing of the day finds me everywhere i go , my souls and being runth over ... what is this lost you speak of ....?
 

OHIO JANIECE: You posted-->

I identify with both charactors
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

YO boy! You had better clarify this one for sure !
***************************************************************************************You posted --->

The ride... ahhhh, I don't know what country you're in... how could I go for a ride.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am in sunny, romantic, Mejico. i.e. Mexico. I will even take my treasured book that my dear friend Omar gave me, along with French bread lathered with Garlic butter and Calif Wine, your selection. no rug though, will You settle for a Polar Bear skin rug??
***************************************************************************************

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. my stateside address is in Tucson. I have a tentative e date with Mesa buddy for coffee.
 

BB you have made many friends here, they come back to banter and challenge each other and you, it makes for lovely conversation.
BB I find that your words and expressions speak of a gentle/angry (?) full/lonely (?) soul. Trust of course is earned. Has anyone gained it from you?
In the logs of flame... someone mentioned remote viewing, I have been trained in the procedure, when doing it, I seemed to be very good at it. But I lost interest in the keeping the 'skill." It takes discipline, and I didn't have the time, but do believe its a skill not a gift. Anyone can be trained in it. I had not had it occur to me that it could be used to find treasure.
Blurry photos can mean several things, you don't want to let them in... or the place isn't what they think it is. Either way its your photos and you have the right to make em' blurry or not. Tho' I admit I find them fascinating and of course would love to be in on the secret. Hmmmm maybe I should hone those RV skills again. LOL
Spirit calling... Facing ones self... I have no problem with facing myself. I'm alive and I have a remarkable life. Someday I will return to it... lol
I don't do blindfolds, I prefer to peek... was that the meaning of blurry photos? Treasure is fun, its serious, its a game, a puzzle... something to work, someplace to go or not.
Finding your lost... my first instinct would be to turn around, but I'm not lost nor have I ever been.
I am very good at reading people, especially through the words they use and verse and rhyme... cadence, lol... my niece calls me spooky, I am just my Mother's daughter. Words have color, texture, a richness all there own. Words are a great map... they are a treasure all their own. This is why legend lures me.
Janiece
 

p.s. my stateside address is in Tucson. I have a tentative e date with Mesa buddy for coffee.
Jose ,
Holla mi amigo and compadre , ah yes that long awaited cup of Java and a good long session of adventures and findings :coffee2:
Let me know when your state side again
You still have my cell # no ?
MB
 

The ride must wait, I do adore animals of all sorts.
Bugs, well he's street smart... he knows how to get things done and he should have turned left at Albuquerque.
Gossamer (my orange monster in tennis shoes) is naive, his job is to scare... but he lets Bugs do his thing, quite nicely I believe. I adore WBs looney tunes. It has a rich history and the characters that created the characters (Bugs, etc.) were all so amazing and I was fortunate enough to meet most of them. The detail they put into those cartoons and the back stories they told... again more treasure in the unseen.
Janiece
 

HOLA buscadores del tesoro,

MUCH to cover so this will be yet another long-winded post, apples to those who hate such things...

Blindbowman wrote:
the dutchman left very clear discription of the mine it self and related the site to the peralta . this is that mine , i dont think it is , i know for a fact it is , by its discription alone . there is little to no chance it could be misteaken for any other mine .. so yes without adout this is the Sombrero mine ..
Click to expand...

I beg to differ on whether the Dutchman left a clear description, though that could be a matter of personal choice, I would say that his description is so un-clear and hazy that treasure hunters have failed to find it for over 100 years. Hardly what I would call a "clear description". You have now made a statement that "without a doubt" your discovery is the Sombrero mine - how can you be that sure?

Blindbowman also wrote:
yes ,i have seen many digings by treasure hunters ... even some nice shafts and workings , even some tailing piles ... in fact , i found dozens of them over a 9 mile area ..
Click to expand...

Hmm well that statement opens the door to many questions. Would you care to describe any of those old workings?

Real de Tayopa wrote:
Do you like animals? If so, may I invite you to go for a ride with me into the desert on my lovely Mule under a full tropical moon ?

Oro turned me down, so did djuicy, sniff, they'll be sorry..when they see me riding off with a beautiful gal
Click to expand...

Well amigo I would never begrudge you having a beautiful gal, and would point out that my choice NOT to join you via mule-back was due only to your choice of mount. I have ridden on a mule and found it to be a most un-comfortable ride, quite different from riding any kind of horse. A horse's shoulder joints move (mostly) in the horizontal plane, resulting in a relatively smooth ride; a mule's shoulder joints move in both horizontal and vertical planes, making them a bit more sure-footed on cliffs and rocks yes, but making for a quite jarring ride - even the shape of their back is different enough that if you are accustomed to riding a horse, you will almost feel like you are heading "downhill" all the time! :o ::) :'( I did honestly contact the border authorities about bringing my own horse south, and the red tape stymied me. Getting the horse into Mexico was not that difficult (a current vet's health certificate they did ask for though) the problem was getting the horse BACK into the USA. Don't write me off quite yet amigo, I cannot promise anything but am trying...

Gossamer, in case I neglected to say this earlier - welcome. I hope that our sometimes 'heated' banter doesn't give the impression that we are not friends, I believe all of us here are friends. Finding any two treasure-hunters who can agree on anything related to treasure though might be more difficult than finding the Lost Dutchman! We do sometimes forget how much we have in common interests though.

Gossamer wrote:
BB I find that your words and expressions speak of a gentle/angry (?) full/lonely (?) soul. Trust of course is earned. Has anyone gained it from you?
Click to expand...

I know this question is directed to our mutual amigo Blindbowman, but I would say that I trust him even though we have never met in person. (I do hope to rectify that too in the future, with a little luck. Cactusjumper's annual Dutch-hunters rendezvous might do the trick to meet several of our friends here.)

Gossamer also wrote:
Hi... please forgive my ignorance, but could someone direct me to the Dutchman's exact words describing the mine?
Click to expand...

There are multiple sources with multiple versions and some of these are online. A good deal of what is available is material that cannot be traced to Jacob Waltz however. Here is a site with a list of some 100 "clues" to find the mine:
http://www.thelostdutchman.net/
Some of the statements can be traced not to the Dutchman but to one of the early Dutch-hunters, which has a little less value than a direct statement. Of the many "clues" the one that I believe is the most striking, and perhaps the most important statement was something Waltz said to his young friend Reiny (Reinhard) Petrasch, when he was trying to describe how to find it - quote:

"Reiny, you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!"

Unfortunately for Reiny, he did not pay close attention and he failed to find the mine.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco
 

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