Odyssey Marine Article...

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy, good question. Why they did not recover any cannon? It is the simplest way to know the name of the shipwreck and the Odyssey team knows it, including the archaeologist. But surely it was too embarrassing. Retrieve one or more cannons would have been too obvious the ship's name: Mercedes, because the cannons of the Spanish Navy are all well documented.
Cheers VV

Where ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise.

Why don't you answer the question, Insults show more guilt .

I already answered that question, and very few wrecks can be identified by their cannon. I don't know of any 1733 or 1715 wrecks that were identified by their cannon.

Thanks Jeff
Ok , How about the ship plates? they would be clearly marked... What I saw of the video, they were in good condition...

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[trinidad]

Vox, did I say a lie in my last post? If I did, please, let me know (in public, right here). And try to respect my anonymity. It's just a "safe" way to write here, in this forum. A safety that I need to keep working without problems. I don't post any insult or any lie, so please let me be "unknown" and don't make as magicians, getting attention in one hand (who I am) trying to hide the trick of the other hand.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Ossy why wait for proceeds from a sale?

They should get the exact amount of compensation (if coins) as to what the loss was. If an heir's ancestor lost 5000 coins then they should get 5000 coins.

Why should the government be a benefactor of the appreciation of the value of the coins?

From what I read the government (Crown) got an agreed upon compensation from Britain back then but shafted their subjects/citizens making them file their own individual personal lawsuits.

Honestly other than the structure of the ship, rigging and fittings I do not see how the Spanish government has a claim to anything. As, again, they were compensated and the majority of the cargo belonged to private citizens to begin with.

Why allow the Spanish government to screw their citizens yet again?

Should they be allowed to steal from the rightful owners just because some organization deems the artifacts of historical cultural importance?

So then what’s to stop ANY government from claiming any item as “historical cultural importance” and then as their property from any descendent of anyone that had some “historically important” ancestor or someone who rightfully possesses it?

Could you imagine the Spanish government taking away some compositions from Tomás Luis de Victoria’s family because they deem it of historical cultural importance?

What’s next, track down and claim every painting by Goya, Dali, Greco and Picasso?
Then move on to the bicycle of Bahamontes or the golf clubs of Ballesteros all in the name of historical cultural importance?

And yes, I am laughing…
-Cheers

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy why wait for proceeds from a sale?

They should get the exact amount of compensation (if coins) as to what the loss was. If an heir's ancestor lost 5000 coins then they should get 5000 coins.

Why should the government be a benefactor of the appreciation of the value of the coins?

From what I read the government (Crown) got an agreed upon compensation from Britain back then but shafted their subjects/citizens making them file their own individual personal lawsuits.

Honestly other than the structure of the ship, rigging and fittings I do not see how the Spanish government has a claim to anything. As, again, they were compensated and the majority of the cargo belonged to private citizens to begin with.

Why allow the Spanish government to screw their citizens yet again?

Should they be allowed to steal from the rightful owners just because some organization deems the artifacts of historical cultural importance?

So then what’s to stop ANY government from claiming any item as “historical cultural importance” and then as their property from any descendent of anyone that had some “historically important” ancestor or someone who rightfully possesses it?

Could you imagine the Spanish government taking away some compositions from Tomás Luis de Victoria’s family because they deem it of historical cultural importance?

What’s next, track down and claim every painting by Goya, Dali, Greco and Picasso?
Then move on to the bicycle of Bahamontes or the golf clubs of Ballesteros all in the name of historical cultural importance?

And yes, I am laughing…
-Cheers

you Forgot Nadal's underwear

 

[capt dom]

Let's face it boys and girls.....
The guys with the guns make the rules.....

The bigger the guns... the more likely they figure they can enforce
their rules and opinions......



Early Spanish explorers learned this from various indigenous
groups as they reached out to educate the heathen folks
about the "Big Guy".....

Today, in the 21st century
we have different ways of measuring who has the biggest
gun or guns...

Odyssey is going to do alright......
They have gotten plenty of press.
Now they can concentrate on salvage projects that may actually create
a profitable return for their stockholders! They are being released from
the burden of actually having to market all of those early 18th Century coins
at telephone book number prices and are now free to make their stock dance to the
drum of new adventures.... like mining the 200 tons of silver
from their most recent find... Here, here...

 

[Salvor6]

So Ossy, when are the coins going back to Spain? If they don't get there by the end of this month Spain will never get them.

 

[Vox veritas]

Ossy, good question. Why they did not recover any cannon? It is the simplest way to know the name of the shipwreck and the Odyssey team knows it, including the archaeologist. But surely it was too embarrassing. Retrieve one or more cannons would have been too obvious the ship's name: Mercedes, because the cannons of the Spanish Navy are all well documented.
Cheers VV

Where ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise.

Why don't you answer the question, Insults show more guilt .

I already answered that question, and very few wrecks can be identified by their cannon. I don't know of any 1733 or 1715 wrecks that were identified by their cannon.

Jeff is clear that you are a shareholder of Odyssey. These pictures belong to a cannon from a Spanish Navy ship wrecked, built at the same time of the Mercedes. Is obvious that Odyssey had no interest in giving details about the ship found, which is the Mercedes, to keep the doubt. It is very strange that Odyssey recovered cannons in Sotogrande and the Victory precisely to identify the name of the wreck, but not in the case of Mercedes, with several visible.
Cheers VV

 

[Vox veritas]

Vox, did I say a lie in my last post? If I did, please, let me know (in public, right here). And try to respect my anonymity. It's just a "safe" way to write here, in this forum. A safety that I need to keep working without problems. I don't post any insult or any lie, so please let me be "unknown" and don't make as magicians, getting attention in one hand (who I am) trying to hide the trick of the other hand.

Trini, you can not tell half-truths. There were no charges against the senior official of Culture and all ended in smoke. Why not add this detail?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Vox "These pictures belong to a cannon from a Spanish Navy ship wrecked, built at the same time of the Mercedes." Define same time? The same year? within a year or two? within a decade?

Ok so what do these pictures have to do with the OM artifact area and what do they have to do with the Mercedes?

Are these cannon from the artifact area? Are these cannon from the Mercedes?

It would be one thing if you showed these pictures and pictures of cannon from the OM artifact area that were the same but alas you do not.

Where's the smoking gun of indentification?

Also even if the cannon are the same as cannon in the OM artifact area that does not prove it is the Mercedes.

We have a general date range for the artifacts from OM to a degree. Of the 500 hundred thousand or so coins not all have been examined.

Would it not be highly suspect for an archaeologist or any expert to date a site without inspecting all the material when no material yet examined proves a definitive date?

 

[trinidad]

Vox, I didn't said half truths. I didn't mentioned there were not charges against that official because I didn't said he was "charged". I've just said what I've said. But to say the whole truth, that official was dismissed from the ministry after a prudent while (sep 2009) to not make noise. If you go today to the ministry and ask about him among the current high officials, long faces appears all around. I repeat: did I said a lie?
One more thing: if the Black Swan is La Mercedes, all your investigation and project in Portugal was a bluff? All the papers I've read wrote by you about the site of La Mercedes just a few hundreds of meters from the shore in Portugal were a bluff? All the plans you and your friend made to recover La Mercedes close to the Portugal's shore, where then a bluff? All the permissions you asked for were based in a false hypothesis? Have you see the light right now? Did you felt from the horse in the way to Damasco?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Vox, I didn't said half truths. I didn't mentioned there were not charges against that official because I didn't said he was "charged". I've just said what I've said. But to say the whole truth, that official was dismissed from the ministry after a prudent while (sep 2009) to not make noise. If you go today to the ministry and ask about him among the current high officials, long faces appears all around. I repeat: did I said a lie?
One more thing: if the Black Swan is La Mercedes, all your investigation and project in Portugal was a bluff? All the papers I've read wrote by you about the site of La Mercedes just a few hundreds of meters from the shore in Portugal were a bluff? All the plans you and your friend made to recover La Mercedes close to the Portugal's shore, where then a bluff? All the permissions you asked for were based in a false hypothesis? Have you see the light right now? Did you felt from the horse in the way to Damasco?

Hmm what say you Vox??

 

[Vox veritas]

Vox "These pictures belong to a cannon from a Spanish Navy ship wrecked, built at the same time of the Mercedes." Define same time? The same year? within a year or two? within a decade?

Ok so what do these pictures have to do with the OM artifact area and what do they have to do with the Mercedes?

Are these cannon from the artifact area? Are these cannon from the Mercedes?

It would be one thing if you showed these pictures and pictures of cannon from the OM artifact area that were the same but alas you do not.

Where's the smoking gun of indentification?

Also even if the cannon are the same as cannon in the OM artifact area that does not prove it is the Mercedes.

We have a general date range for the artifacts from OM to a degree. Of the 500 hundred thousand or so coins not all have been examined.

Would it not be highly suspect for an archaeologist or any expert to date a site without inspecting all the material when no material yet examined proves a definitive date?

Au, my message refers to the fact that it is strange that a professional company like Odyssey not recover the cannons, where it may be possible to recognize the ship belonged. Indeed it did in Sotogrande (Spain) and the HMS Victory, but curiously not in the case of BS.
Good example is the cannon whose photos attached and belonging to a ship of the Spanish Navy. For reasons of professional confidentiality, I can not disclose more information about this topic, but I can say is contemporary of the Mercedes.
Finally, know the name of the ship would have increased the intrinsic value of the recovered cargo.
VV

 

[trinidad]

Hey, Vox, I´m still here! Could I have an answer to my last post?

 

[Vox veritas]

Vox, I didn't said half truths. I didn't mentioned there were not charges against that official because I didn't said he was "charged". I've just said what I've said. But to say the whole truth, that official was dismissed from the ministry after a prudent while (sep 2009) to not make noise. If you go today to the ministry and ask about him among the current high officials, long faces appears all around. I repeat: did I said a lie?
One more thing: if the Black Swan is La Mercedes, all your investigation and project in Portugal was a bluff? All the papers I've read wrote by you about the site of La Mercedes just a few hundreds of meters from the shore in Portugal were a bluff? All the plans you and your friend made to recover La Mercedes close to the Portugal's shore, where then a bluff? All the permissions you asked for were based in a false hypothesis? Have you see the light right now? Did you felt from the horse in the way to Damasco?

Trini, do not run too much, takes care of the heart.
In the first edition of my book "Galeones con tesoros" (the same as Odyssey and Spain used in the court of Tampa) page 200, I mean literally that, navigational information, information and knowledge from Diego Alvear and a fisherman, found what could be the Mercedes. Later some people in the Portuguese Navy and divers have confirmed this assumption to me. My opinion is that in 1982 our team found the Mercedes.
The problem is that Odyssey refers to 1,100 meters deep, but I think this version is not true. Everything about the presence of Odyssey in Spanish waters is peppered with irregularities. Gradually the whole truth of a case that was a "matter of State"
including the operation "Bahia II" will be known.
Now I have to go to work. Good bye.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

"Gradually the whole truth of a case that was a "matter of State""

So let me get this right. You along with others "compelled by evidence" conclude that you found the Mercedes elsewhere and the Spanish government knows this?

But because of "wanting" the coins OM found they are keeping it quiet and lying about the coins coming from the Mercedes in court?

So we have to conclude two things?

The above or OM is lying about where they found the coins.

In Spain is the burden of proof not on the accuser? It would be very simple if OM states that these coins came from an area of artifact deposit on the sea floor. (Which they have) We have documented information by a world renown shipwreck expert that states the Mercedes is elsewhere and we believe the Government of Spain has been working with him and also believes the wreck is the Mercedes. Then Spain should have to "dive" OM's site and prove otherwise. You and others should be brought into court and testify to the truth.

Honestly Vox unless OM is completely lying about where they recovered the coins why wouldn't you want the truth to be known? Is it not better for you to tell the truth of this matter and have your judgment from God more important than your judgment from men?

If you have found the Mercedes and you believe OM did not recover their artifacts from that site then you should expeditiously contact OM and give them all the information they need for justice to prevail.

 

[Vox veritas]

"Gradually the whole truth of a case that was a "matter of State""

So let me get this right. You along with others "compelled by evidence" conclude that you found the Mercedes elsewhere and the Spanish government knows this?

But because of "wanting" the coins OM found they are keeping it quiet and lying about the coins coming from the Mercedes in court?

So we have to conclude two things?

The above or OM is lying about where they found the coins.

In Spain is the burden of proof not on the accuser? It would be very simple if OM states that these coins came from an area of artifact deposit on the sea floor. (Which they have) We have documented information by a world renown shipwreck expert that states the Mercedes is elsewhere and we believe the Government of Spain has been working with him and also believes the wreck is the Mercedes. Then Spain should have to "dive" OM's site and prove otherwise. You and others should be brought into court and testify to the truth.

Honestly Vox unless OM is completely lying about where they recovered the coins why wouldn't you want the truth to be known? Is it not better for you to tell the truth of this matter and have your judgment from God more important than your judgment from men?

If you have found the Mercedes and you believe OM did not recover their artifacts from that site then you should expeditiously contact OM and give them all the information they need for justice to prevail.

Au, I said "found what could be the Mercedes".
Personally, I care little what happens to the recovered cargo.
But do not tell lies.
Cheers VV

 

[trinidad]

Excuse me Vox, but I think you are loosing your memory. The conversation recorded by the police (Guardia Civil) says, literally, that you says to a so called spanish treasure hunter "that you knows where La Mercedes lies". And that treasure hunter says too that the high official from the ministry of the Culture of Spain will fix everything to don't have to pretend a fortuit find to get the 50% of the finder rights. And on the same document the police talks about a man called Peter (I suppose the same Peter that put the money for the Louise) that will give the money for the operation in Portugal with La Mercedes, where you have contacts and where you were going to have a meeting with somebody in the ministry of Culture, in the portuguese Army and in an historical association. And more stuff that we can discuss in some other moment.
All this information is not an invention of mine. It's document from a judicial court with telephonic interventions got by the police. Not literature or something. The real life with real pirates.
So, once again: Or you have been lying to your friends (and media) about the place where La Mercedes rest in Portugal or you have been lying here. Because if La Mercedes is where OME did say they recovered the coins, you didn't find La Mercedes. And if you did find La Mercedes, OME took the coins from a site that is not La Mercedes.
And get back to work, I dont want to make you loose your time. By the way, how´s the weather these days in Honduras?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Ok Vox you say it could be?
By what determinations?

Either way it is a very bold statement to make.

I once found some ship's timbers and an onion bottle but I wasn't telling people I found what could be the Queen Anne's Revenge...

I would expect that an expert such as yourself wouldn't state a shipwreck could be the Mercedes without a bunch of positive information. You're an expert in this field so it's not like you found one artifact from the era. It would take alot of material to determine that the wreck could be the Mercedes other than a wreck from that time.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Garneo rubioss, Red Gurnard lives at depths of 200 meters small juveniles perfer shallow waters and are often
caught in shallow harbours.
Ocean floor photos from black swan.

 

[Vox veritas]

Excuse me Vox, but I think you are loosing your memory. The conversation recorded by the police (Guardia Civil) says, literally, that you says to a so called spanish treasure hunter "that you knows where La Mercedes lies". And that treasure hunter says too that the high official from the ministry of the Culture of Spain will fix everything to don't have to pretend a fortuit find to get the 50% of the finder rights. And on the same document the police talks about a man called Peter (I suppose the same Peter that put the money for the Louise) that will give the money for the operation in Portugal with La Mercedes, where you have contacts and where you were going to have a meeting with somebody in the ministry of Culture, in the portuguese Army and in an historical association. And more stuff that we can discuss in some other moment.
All this information is not an invention of mine. It's document from a judicial court with telephonic interventions got by the police. Not literature or something. The real life with real pirates.
So, once again: Or you have been lying to your friends (and media) about the place where La Mercedes rest in Portugal or you have been lying here. Because if La Mercedes is where OME did say they recovered the coins, you didn't find La Mercedes. And if you did find La Mercedes, OME took the coins from a site that is not La Mercedes.
And get back to work, I dont want to make you loose your time. By the way, how´s the weather these days in Honduras?

Trini,
details of matters related to "Bahia II" will be known when the case ends. No such details will be publicly debated.
Have a nice day.
VV