Odyssey Marine Article...

[Au_Dreamers]

Yes Rambo, when you do it illegally without permission Spain was happy to leave the Mercedes alone !!! They did not care or need
the coins to sell ... It was not there mission to salvage the Mercedes, They wanted it left alone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A bit like the Arizona, How many died in vain !!! If only the US would not have set oil embargoes on Japan the attack would not have happen.
Your right, greed does cause people to die and its happening all over the world, every day ...

Rambo? lol you too funny....
Why do you keep saying that OM did it illegally without permission? OM had permission They had permission to search and then salvage an unknown deposit of artifacts on the sea floor in international waters. What evidence has Spain provided to indentify the "wreck site" as the Mercedes?

What does Spain still think they own the world?? Spain has no jurisdiction where the artifacts were recovered from.

Again if OM took their evidence to the state of Florida they would not obtain a salvage permit because there is no proof of a shipwreck, let alone proof that it was the Mercedes.

Maybe the Mercedes is off the east coast of Florida. There are a few wrecks with early 1800's Spanish pillar dollars...lol

It is nothing like the Arizona. Our service personnel did not die in vain. We went on to defeat the enemy that attacked us, while Spain on the other hand if you recall got there ass handed to them and lost the war...

 

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[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Yes Rambo, when you do it illegally without permission Spain was happy to leave the Mercedes alone !!! They did not care or need
the coins to sell ... It was not there mission to salvage the Mercedes, They wanted it left alone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A bit like the Arizona, How many died in vain !!! If only the US would not have set oil embargoes on Japan the attack would not have happen.
Your right, greed does cause people to die and its happening all over the world, every day ...

Rambo? lol you too funny....
Why do you keep saying that OM did it illegally without permission? OM had permission They had permission to search and then salvage an unknown deposit of artifacts on the sea floor in international waters. What evidence has Spain provided to indentify the "wreck site" as the Mercedes?

What does Spain still think they own the world?? Spain has no jurisdiction where the artifacts were recovered from.

Again if OM took their evidence to the state of Florida they would not obtain a salvage permit because there is no proof of a shipwreck, let alone proof that it was the Mercedes.

Maybe the Mercedes is off the east coast of Florida. There are a few wrecks with early 1800's Spanish pillar dollars...lol

It is nothing like the Arizona. Our service personnel did not die in vain. We went on to defeat the enemy that attacked us, while Spain on the other hand if you recall got there ass handed to them and lost the war...

I'm Surprised Au , I through you may have read the reports from both sides How many Ships with that amount of Coins blew up in that area .
Some education for you , The Coin's are Portrait Colonial dollars (Bust ) and not Pillar Dollars and there is no date past 1804.
What don't you understand about Sovereign Royal Naval war ship Your US judges have no problem and have ruled accordingly
Odyssey were clearly advised not to touch any Spanish wrecks, Read the report ...
No Spain doesn't rule the world, it just fights to protect its ship wrecks... By the way, China rule the world and are buying it as we speak.
And anybody dieing in War is in Vain !!!!! Dropping a Atomic bomb on innocent people is nothing to be proud off. No disrespect to anyone, Just stating
the facts.
Ossy

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Portrait/ Pillar either way where's the shipwreck OM touched? Both types of those coins were accepted currency worldwide. I dunno the reports I read is that where OM found the coins doesn't mactch up exactly where the Mercedes was reported to have blown-up.

Is there evidence that the treasure was recovered from a ship that blew-up?

You see here in America we have what is called the burden of proof. One is presumed innocent until the proof is made that they are guilty beyond a shadow of doubt.

So what evidence of proof has Spain shown that the artifacts were recovered from a sovereign warship, let alone the Mercedes?

Has Spain been to the artifact recovery area and performed their own archaeological investigation of the site? Do they have conclusive artifacts that indentify the site as a shipwreck let alone the Mercedes? Where is this conclusive evidence? What is this conclusive evidence?

"What don't you understand about Sovereign Royal Naval war ship Your US judges have no problem and have ruled accordingly."

Because I read the law without bias... It's specifically clear. Private citizens and commercial cargo makes one a non-sovereign war ship.... And actually the last ruling stated that it is not within their jurisdiction. If the court has no jurisdiction then what some judge says is just his personal opinion and you know what they say about opinions and buttholes.........

But that's ok OM will get some treasure anyways under the salvage law of finds.... That is of course laws do not apply to Spain. Which I believe they believe and that's why their modern war vessels harass innocent boaters...

"And anybody dieing in War is in Vain !!!!! " 100% disagree, some wars need(ed) to happen.

 

[Vox veritas]

So MABO now making money is greed?

You sure do know how to stretch things...

"People would pay to see a mountain of colonial coins, with the history
of what happen that day and what it means to Spanish history.
How many people died that day, so the English would not get their hands on it !!!"

Oh really?!!? Spain never cared about the "alleged" shipwreck for 203 years!!

The "English" got their hands on approximately 3,086,508 million Spanish dollars in silver and gold coin, as well as 150,000 gold ingots Plus the 3 Ships Santa Clara, Medea, and the Fama.

Clearly Britain was on a military mission but the 4 Spanish ships were on a commercial venture.
The action was considered an act of piracy because of the attack in time of peace to a Spanish fleet carrying goods and civilian personnel.

If only the Brigadier had thought to save those lives as much as he thought of saving the cargo.
The end result with Britain taking the ships and most of the cargo, the deaths were in vain...

Sadly it was greed that caused those people to die. If only Bustamante had surrendered...

In 2005-2006 I was negotiating with Spain and Portugal to undertake a recovery operation. I had available archaeologists and technicians. The proposal was welcomed by Spain, among other things to fill museums. From all this there is abundant documentation. The Mercedes was not forgotten for 203 years.
Cheers VV

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Just to clarify... You were negotiating a recovery operation? You had located the wreck?

 

[sphillips]

Quote from VV:

"In 2005-2006 I was negotiating with Spain and Portugal to undertake a recovery operation. I had available archaeologists and technicians. The proposal was welcomed by Spain, among other things to fill museums. From all this there is abundant documentation. The Mercedes was not forgotten for 203 years.
Cheers VV"

VV,

If you, Spain, Portugal, including archaeologoists and technicians, knew where the Mercedes sank back in 2005, why did this consortium not claim salvage rights at that time?

 

[trinidad]

We have already talk about this before. The "recovery" operation was planned over a site that is far away from the point the Blank Swan's stuff was recovered. If Spain admits that site as La Mercedes site, it's not possible to be a two places at the same time, so somebody is lying here. Plus: the high official from the spanish ministry of Culture that was planning that operation accepted gifts from a so called spanish treasure hunter, good friend of him, that was in the middle of this operation. It's the same official that in public said at that time that Odyssey was a kind of evil.

 

[Vox veritas]

We have already talk about this before. The "recovery" operation was planned over a site that is far away from the point the Blank Swan's stuff was recovered. If Spain admits that site as La Mercedes site, it's not possible to be a two places at the same time, so somebody is lying here. Plus: the high official from the spanish ministry of Culture that was planning that operation accepted gifts from a so called spanish treasure hunter, good friend of him, that was in the middle of this operation. It's the same official that in public said at that time that Odyssey was a kind of evil.

Hello old friend Trini. Where were you hiding?
Yes, indeed there were gifts, but from others senior officials. In regard to cultural officials, this person was limited to doing his duty not to allow Odyssey illegal work with the support of Foreign Affairs. Everything is perfectly written black on white in the documents of the ghostly "Operation Bahia II" and signed and sealed by the Guardia Civil. Simply read the 18 volumes of documents and understand and know the whole truth.

Cheers VV
P.S. I see you're still anonymous. Throwing the stone and hiding your hand!

 

[Au_Dreamers]

I guess OM should get those documents pulled and use them in their court battle.

I have not read all the briefs nor Doc's but what I have read I haven't seen where Spain proved the artifact recovery deposit area to be from the Mercedes, but OM has claimed it not to be.

Without proof of the artifact deposit area to be the remains of the ship Mercedes the case should be dismissed.

Maybe the deposit came from a private "American vessel" doing business with private Spanish citizens.
Maybe it came from a Spanish commercial operation doing business for private citizens...
oh wait, it was...

 

[Au_Dreamers]

We have already talk about this before. The "recovery" operation was planned over a site that is far away from the point the Blank Swan's stuff was recovered. If Spain admits that site as La Mercedes site, it's not possible to be a two places at the same time, so somebody is lying here. Plus: the high official from the spanish ministry of Culture that was planning that operation accepted gifts from a so called spanish treasure hunter, good friend of him, that was in the middle of this operation. It's the same official that in public said at that time that Odyssey was a kind of evil.

Hello old friend Trini. Where were you hiding?
Yes, indeed there were gifts, but from others senior officials. In regard to cultural officials, this person was limited to doing his duty not to allow Odyssey illegal work with the support of Foreign Affairs. Everything is perfectly written black on white in the documents of the ghostly "Operation Bahia II" and signed and sealed by the Guardia Civil. Simply read the 18 volumes of documents and understand and know the whole truth.

Cheers VV
P.S. I see you're still anonymous. Throwing the stone and hiding your hand!

So you have documented proof that the artifact deposit area that OM salvaged is not the Mercedes?

 

[Vox veritas]

I guess OM should get those documents pulled and use them in their court battle.

I have not read all the briefs nor Doc's but what I have read I haven't seen where Spain proved the artifact recovery deposit area to be from the Mercedes, but OM has claimed it not to be.

Without proof of the artifact deposit area to be the remains of the ship Mercedes the case should be dismissed.

Maybe the deposit came from a private "American vessel" doing business with private Spanish citizens.
Maybe it came from a Spanish commercial operation doing business for private citizens...
oh wait, it was...

All right, let's take these documents. So know the gory details. It will be very interesting! But I think more than one is not interested to know these details.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

I'm all for the truth.

But I will say that even if the artifact recovery area "has"/is been proven to be the Mercedes,
I also believe that historical documents prove that the Mercedes was on a commercial operation that included cargo for private citizens and the carrying of private citizens.

Can that be truthfully denied?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

I guess OM should get those documents pulled and use them in their court battle.

I have not read all the briefs nor Doc's but what I have read I haven't seen where Spain proved the artifact recovery deposit area to be from the Mercedes, but OM has claimed it not to be.

Without proof of the artifact deposit area to be the remains of the ship Mercedes the case should be dismissed.

Maybe the deposit came from a private "American vessel" doing business with private Spanish citizens.
Maybe it came from a Spanish commercial operation doing business for private citizens...
oh wait, it was...

Au , why don't you use Greg Stemn Line ( The coin's were thrown over board to keep the ship from sinking
You can keep kicking and screaming, The Coins are going back to Spain...
Do you know of any other ship carrying that amount of coins in that same time line, sinking in that area
Spain had Video and pictures from Odyssey on the site, which showed cannons, ship fitting, Plates ect ... In particular some obsolete cannons which
were on the manifest.
If you read my posts from the last two years, I have always asked Jeff why Odyssey never brought up any cannons
Simple answer " evidence "
Was it the Mercedes, Odyssey know the answer to that Could it have been another Spanish ship, Claudio may know
Was there bribery and corruption on both sides, You Bet !!!
Was it commercial goods, don't care, it belonged to Spaniards and should go back to Spain... As a Spanish citizen would I pay to have it returned
to Spain " YOU BET "

 

[Vox veritas]

I guess OM should get those documents pulled and use them in their court battle.

I have not read all the briefs nor Doc's but what I have read I haven't seen where Spain proved the artifact recovery deposit area to be from the Mercedes, but OM has claimed it not to be.

Without proof of the artifact deposit area to be the remains of the ship Mercedes the case should be dismissed.

Maybe the deposit came from a private "American vessel" doing business with private Spanish citizens.
Maybe it came from a Spanish commercial operation doing business for private citizens...
oh wait, it was...

Au , why don't you use Greg Stemn Line ( The coin's were thrown over board to keep the ship from sinking
You can keep kicking and screaming, The Coins are going back to Spain...
Do you know of any other ship carrying that amount of coins in that same time line, sinking in that area
Spain had Video and pictures from Odyssey on the site, which showed cannons, ship fitting, Plates ect ... In particular some obsolete cannons which
were on the manifest.
If you read my posts from the last two years, I have always asked Jeff why Odyssey never brought up any cannons
Simple answer " evidence "
Was it the Mercedes, Odyssey know the answer to that Could it have been another Spanish ship, Claudio may know
Was there bribery and corruption on both sides, You Bet !!!
Was it commercial goods, don't care, it belonged to Spaniards and should go back to Spain... As a Spanish citizen would I pay to have it returned
to Spain " YOU BET "

Ossy, good question. Why they did not recover any cannon? It is the simplest way to know the name of the shipwreck and the Odyssey team knows it, including the archaeologist. But surely it was too embarrassing. Retrieve one or more cannons would have been too obvious the ship's name: Mercedes, because the cannons of the Spanish Navy are all well documented.
Cheers VV

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

I guess OM should get those documents pulled and use them in their court battle.

I have not read all the briefs nor Doc's but what I have read I haven't seen where Spain proved the artifact recovery deposit area to be from the Mercedes, but OM has claimed it not to be.

Without proof of the artifact deposit area to be the remains of the ship Mercedes the case should be dismissed.

Maybe the deposit came from a private "American vessel" doing business with private Spanish citizens.
Maybe it came from a Spanish commercial operation doing business for private citizens...
oh wait, it was...

Au , why don't you use Greg Stemn Line ( The coin's were thrown over board to keep the ship from sinking
You can keep kicking and screaming, The Coins are going back to Spain...
Do you know of any other ship carrying that amount of coins in that same time line, sinking in that area
Spain had Video and pictures from Odyssey on the site, which showed cannons, ship fitting, Plates ect ... In particular some obsolete cannons which
were on the manifest.
If you read my posts from the last two years, I have always asked Jeff why Odyssey never brought up any cannons
Simple answer " evidence "
Was it the Mercedes, Odyssey know the answer to that Could it have been another Spanish ship, Claudio may know
Was there bribery and corruption on both sides, You Bet !!!
Was it commercial goods, don't care, it belonged to Spaniards and should go back to Spain... As a Spanish citizen would I pay to have it returned
to Spain " YOU BET "

Ossy, good question. Why they did not recover any cannon? It is the simplest way to know the name of the shipwreck and the Odyssey team knows it, including the archaeologist. But surely it was too embarrassing. Retrieve one or more cannons would have been too obvious the ship's name: Mercedes, because the cannons of the Spanish Navy are all well documented.
Cheers VV

They had the ROV over the Cannons and even blew away sand to identify them, Odyssey knew exactly what they were doing
They got caught with the coins as well as they could not find any with the date past 1804.
What about the ship plates that they left behind just push them out of the way to get the coins... Great archeology
Ossy

 

[Au_Dreamers]

"Was it commercial goods, don't care, it belonged to Spaniards and should go back to Spain"

Are you certain only Spaniards had a financial interest/backing in the commercial operation?

So then shouldn't the coins/treasure go to the private citizen's heirs and not the government?

The government got reparations for their loss from Britain and then told their subjects that they were alone in their battle to obtain their own personal reparations. (Awfully nice of them.)

So like your mother country you do not care what the laws of the world are you claim entitlement to the artifacts simply because of nationalism?

I thought I understood your view point before but that statement allows me to now I understand your bias, completely…

No, I do not know of another ship that blew up in the area of the artifact deposit area because I do not know where the artifact deposit area is.

BUT apparently some archaeologists and government officials do.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

"Was it commercial goods, don't care, it belonged to Spaniards and should go back to Spain"

Are you certain only Spaniards had a financial interest/backing in the commercial operation?

So then shouldn't the coins/treasure go to the private citizen's heirs and not the government?

The government got reparations for their loss from Britain and then told their subjects that they were alone in their battle to obtain their own personal reparations. (Awfully nice of them.)

So like your mother country you do not care what the laws of the world are you claim entitlement to the artifacts simply because of nationalism?

I thought I understood your view point before but that statement allows me to now I understand your bias, completely…

No, I do not know of another ship that blew up in the area of the artifact deposit area because I do not know where the artifact deposit area is.

BUT apparently some archaeologists and government officials do.

Chris you are as one eyed as I am. Yes you should respect laws of the world and Nation's agreements as With The USA and Spain, with the friendship agreement.
I agree the descendants of Mercedes should receive some compensation IF any goods are sold... But Spain is not going to sell them
And your dreaming if you through Odyssey would have given them one cent, if they got away with it.
Ossy

 

[jeff k]

Ossy, good question. Why they did not recover any cannon? It is the simplest way to know the name of the shipwreck and the Odyssey team knows it, including the archaeologist. But surely it was too embarrassing. Retrieve one or more cannons would have been too obvious the ship's name: Mercedes, because the cannons of the Spanish Navy are all well documented.
Cheers VV

Where ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy, good question. Why they did not recover any cannon? It is the simplest way to know the name of the shipwreck and the Odyssey team knows it, including the archaeologist. But surely it was too embarrassing. Retrieve one or more cannons would have been too obvious the ship's name: Mercedes, because the cannons of the Spanish Navy are all well documented.
Cheers VV

Where ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise.

Why don't you answer the question, Insults show more guilt .

 

[jeff k]

Ossy, good question. Why they did not recover any cannon? It is the simplest way to know the name of the shipwreck and the Odyssey team knows it, including the archaeologist. But surely it was too embarrassing. Retrieve one or more cannons would have been too obvious the ship's name: Mercedes, because the cannons of the Spanish Navy are all well documented.
Cheers VV

Where ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise.

Why don't you answer the question, Insults show more guilt .

I already answered that question, and very few wrecks can be identified by their cannon. I don't know of any 1733 or 1715 wrecks that were identified by their cannon.