Odyssey Marine Article...

[Salvor6]

I think Odyssey is going to sell the coins to pay for their legal expenses.

 

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[Vox veritas]

Spain beats Odyssey ..........

http://translate.google.es/translat.../abci-odyssey-tribunal-eeuu-201109212122.html

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

I think Odyssey is going to sell the coins to pay for their legal expenses.

They have 15 days to return the goods !
Do you think they will fly the coins back ?

 

[Vox veritas]

I believe that soon we will read the Pipe Sarmiento's book "Odyssey file"

http://www.pipesarmiento.net/imagenes/odissey_portada.JPG

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

http://pdf.elpais.com/articulo/engl...ipwreck/coins/elpepueng/20110921elpeng_12/Ten
It's all over !! And the fat lady has been thrown overboard.
Ossy

 

[Panfilo]

Let's not jump to conclusions just yet as history has proved that these sort of cases always end up in the Supreme Court, no matter who might have won today. The Atocha case made it to the Supreme Court and we all know who won. There are indisputable facts such as that the Mercedes was transporting women and children, 75% of the cargo was private and Spain and England were not at war. If this voyage was a "military Mission" we'll we shall see what the Supreme Court and the Hague have to say as to this curious interpretation of things. No, the fat lady has not sung yet, hold on the champagne, not quite ready.
Panfilo

 

[Vox veritas]

Let's not jump to conclusions just yet as history has proved that these sort of cases always end up in the Supreme Court, no matter who might have won today. The Atocha case made it to the Supreme Court and we all know who won. There are indisputable facts such as that the Mercedes was transporting women and children, 75% of the cargo was private and Spain and England were not at war. If this voyage was a "military Mission" we'll we shall see what the Supreme Court and the Hague have to say as to this curious interpretation of things. No, the fat lady has not sung yet, hold on the champagne, not quite ready.
Panfilo

Hi Panfi,
this same Supreme Court ruled in favor of Spain with the case JUNO and GALGA against Sea Hunt Inc. As we remember won Spain.
Cheers VV

 

[VOC]

Hopefully if the coins have to be returned they can be scattered over the wreck site for insitu preservation as per the UNESCO 2001 Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage.

It will be a traversty if the theiving Spanish Goverment get the coins.

Lets hope the American courts stand by international maritime and salvage law on this case and allow Odyssey to record and then sell these coins.

 

[jeff k]

Let's not jump to conclusions just yet as history has proved that these sort of cases always end up in the Supreme Court, no matter who might have won today. The Atocha case made it to the Supreme Court and we all know who won. There are indisputable facts such as that the Mercedes was transporting women and children, 75% of the cargo was private and Spain and England were not at war. If this voyage was a "military Mission" we'll we shall see what the Supreme Court and the Hague have to say as to this curious interpretation of things. No, the fat lady has not sung yet, hold on the champagne, not quite ready.
Panfilo

Hi Panfi,
this same Supreme Court ruled in favor of Spain with the case JUNO and GALGA against Sea Hunt Inc. As we remember won Spain.
Cheers VV

Not true! The Supreme Court never heard that case.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

"U.S. Magistrate Judge Mark A. Pizzo agreed with Spain that the U.S. lacks jurisdiction over the case and recommended that Merryday dismiss it and order the property returned to Spain, which he did."

So if the U.S. lacks jurisdiction how does he have the authority to order the treasure returned?

"any pronouncement made without valid admiralty jurisdiction, which they did not have, is nothing more than an advisory opinion to the Kingdom of Spain. Article Three, Section II of U.S. Constitution prohibits such opinions. This decision must be set aside." - John Amrhein

 

[Vox veritas]

Let's not jump to conclusions just yet as history has proved that these sort of cases always end up in the Supreme Court, no matter who might have won today. The Atocha case made it to the Supreme Court and we all know who won. There are indisputable facts such as that the Mercedes was transporting women and children, 75% of the cargo was private and Spain and England were not at war. If this voyage was a "military Mission" we'll we shall see what the Supreme Court and the Hague have to say as to this curious interpretation of things. No, the fat lady has not sung yet, hold on the champagne, not quite ready.
Panfilo

Hi Panfi,
this same Supreme Court ruled in favor of Spain with the case JUNO and GALGA against Sea Hunt Inc. As we remember won Spain.
Cheers VV

Not true! The Supreme Court never heard that case.

Who?

 

[Vox veritas]

Let's not jump to conclusions just yet as history has proved that these sort of cases always end up in the Supreme Court, no matter who might have won today. The Atocha case made it to the Supreme Court and we all know who won. There are indisputable facts such as that the Mercedes was transporting women and children, 75% of the cargo was private and Spain and England were not at war. If this voyage was a "military Mission" we'll we shall see what the Supreme Court and the Hague have to say as to this curious interpretation of things. No, the fat lady has not sung yet, hold on the champagne, not quite ready.
Panfilo

Hi Panfi,
this same Supreme Court ruled in favor of Spain with the case JUNO and GALGA against Sea Hunt Inc. As we remember won Spain.
Cheers VV

Not true! The Supreme Court never heard that case.

Please, check:

http://www.thehiddengalleon.com/Treasurehunter.htm

Sea Hunt and the Commonwealth of Virginia appealed to the Supreme Court. That appeal was denied February 20, 2001.

 

[jeff k]

Let's not jump to conclusions just yet as history has proved that these sort of cases always end up in the Supreme Court, no matter who might have won today. The Atocha case made it to the Supreme Court and we all know who won. There are indisputable facts such as that the Mercedes was transporting women and children, 75% of the cargo was private and Spain and England were not at war. If this voyage was a "military Mission" we'll we shall see what the Supreme Court and the Hague have to say as to this curious interpretation of things. No, the fat lady has not sung yet, hold on the champagne, not quite ready.
Panfilo

Hi Panfi,
this same Supreme Court ruled in favor of Spain with the case JUNO and GALGA against Sea Hunt Inc. As we remember won Spain.
Cheers VV

Not true! The Supreme Court never heard that case.

Please, check:

http://www.thehiddengalleon.com/Treasurehunter.htm

Sea Hunt and the Commonwealth of Virginia appealed to the Supreme Court. That appeal was denied February 20, 2001.

The Supreme Court never ruled on the case, because they decided not to hear the case.

 

[Vox veritas]

Let's not jump to conclusions just yet as history has proved that these sort of cases always end up in the Supreme Court, no matter who might have won today. The Atocha case made it to the Supreme Court and we all know who won. There are indisputable facts such as that the Mercedes was transporting women and children, 75% of the cargo was private and Spain and England were not at war. If this voyage was a "military Mission" we'll we shall see what the Supreme Court and the Hague have to say as to this curious interpretation of things. No, the fat lady has not sung yet, hold on the champagne, not quite ready.
Panfilo

Hi Panfi,
this same Supreme Court ruled in favor of Spain with the case JUNO and GALGA against Sea Hunt Inc. As we remember won Spain.
Cheers VV

Not true! The Supreme Court never heard that case.

Please, check:

http://www.thehiddengalleon.com/Treasurehunter.htm

Sea Hunt and the Commonwealth of Virginia appealed to the Supreme Court. That appeal was denied February 20, 2001.

The Supreme Court never ruled on the case, because they decided not to hear the case.

Not to hear does not mean not to come to the Supreme Court.

 

[Alexandre]

Hopefully if the coins have to be returned they can be scattered over the wreck site for insitu preservation as per the UNESCO 2001 Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage.

Please read this carefully (taken from Maarleveld, Guérin & Egger (eds.), 2011 "Underwater Cultural Heritage and the Rules of the UNESCO 2001 Convention: a Manual")


"In situ preservation as the first option (Rule 1)

The first sentence of Rule 1, “The protection of underwater cultural heritage through in situ preservation shall be considered as the first option” is the core of this rule. The consideration given to preservation in situ by the Convention and its Annex is based on the recognition of the importance of the interplay between the site, its story and its context.

It is the most telling phrase in the whole ANNEX, while at the same time it is certainly the most debated and the least understood, especially in the context of underwater exploration. Such misunderstanding is nurtured by those who do not want any regulation to curtail their interests. They will claim that archaeology is about finding things and that it would therefore be ludicrous to say things should be left in place.

It is certainly true that archaeological research – like any research – is about seeking knowledge and it is even about finding objects in order to do this. This popular image is evidently a simplification of the scientific research process of which archaeological investigation forms a part, but nonetheless the popular image is surely not wrong per se. The fact, however, that finding out things „in the field‟ is not an isolated endeavour, has fundamental consequences for the organization of archaeological research.

Authorization of activities

The second part of Rule 1 states that "activities directed at underwater cultural heritage shall be authorized...” and stresses two major points. In the first place, it implies that any authorizing entity should consider the first option as pointedly as any operator. Above all, however, it stresses that any prospective activity should be authorized by the competent authority that exists on the basis of Article 22 of the Convention.

This clear reference places any activities directed at submerged archaeological sites within the public domain. Decisions over activities directed at heritage belong to the public domain, as heritage has a unique value for humanity. Competent authorities are entrusted with checking and weighing the considerations involved. Their involvement ensures that any activity is only undertaken for the purpose of making a significant contribution to protection, knowledge or enhancement of underwater cultural heritage, and they impose pertinent quality standards on the envisaged work. The role of the competent authority gains even more importance when the proposed activity involves excavation.

Purpose of activities

Many sites are yet or have long remained unknown because of the simple fact that until discovery they are covered by soil, by water or by both. Evidently it is only through archaeological investigation and research that such newly discovered heritage can be appreciated and investigated.

Archaeology has developed through trial and error just like other fields of scientific research. The last part of Rule 1 claims that activities “may be authorized for the purpose of making a significant contribution to protection or knowledge or enhancement of underwater cultural heritage.” Today‟s crucial understanding that excavation should not be undertaken unless for good reason, was not yet manifest when archaeology first developed one or two centuries ago.

Excavation is not only the most characteristic activity of an archaeologist in the popular image, but it is also the most drastic activity directed at cultural heritage that an archaeologist can undertake. If given careful consideration, and if embedded in the context of wider research and research questions, excavation can be a very creative process, producing new knowledge on past societies, or shedding new light on specific aspects of the past.

At the same time, however, it is also destructive. While carefully documenting and combining evidence as recognized, it also destroys the coherence and context of a site. Although excavation can make the heritage more accessible, it also compromises to a greater or lesser extent the site‟s authenticity, the quality that is most respected in experiencing and enjoying a place, in identifying with it, or in terms of commemoration.
Excavation cannot do without research. And yet, even a research excavation misses the evidence that fails to be recognized for its significance by the excavator. Consequently, excavation must be embedded in a wider context of research questions with which the team is fully familiar. An ill-considered excavation can neither be undone nor can its results be amended once the original evidence is destroyed.

Practical lessons

Lessons of the past are highly relevant. The recoveries of extensive underwater heritage, for instance those of the Vasa and the Mary Rose wrecks, have promoted the appreciation of underwater cultural heritage enormously. They have also suggested that ultimately such recovery would be the appropriate practice in underwater archaeology, while at the same calling attention to the issue of limited capacities. The investments engaged in these projects would be difficult to afford repeatedly. However, this is not the sole reason for which full recovery projects are not necessarily the best option.

Appropriate practice varies significantly, depending on the specific circumstances of each site. Accordingly, wide acceptance of the cautionary approach prevails, promoting in situ preservation, in preference to the recovery of artefacts and in preference to partial or complete excavation of the site.

It will never be possible to preserve all sites in their status quo. This is not just a matter of insufficient funds, limited capacities of heritage agencies, or the limited number of qualified archaeologists. There is a range of processes on site and impacting developments on the immediate surroundings that cannot be stopped.

As not all sites can be protected and managed, a pragmatic choice needs to be made, based upon the assessment of all heritage sites and their archaeological, historical and artistic or aesthetic value. In making a reasonable choice, with regard to the finiteness of heritage resources, as well as the importance of authenticity and context, many sites are being preserved for future generations, including future generations of researchers. In this respect, the importance of inventory cannot be overemphasized.

Other options

Rule 1 indicates that in situ preservation shall be considered as the first option and that in authorizing any activity, this possibility should be considered first as well.

However, „first option‟ is not the same as „only option‟, or „preferred option‟. Partial or total excavation may be necessary under certain circumstances and preferable for a number of reasons. Reasons may be external, such as development projects for which many sites need to make way. If their character is fully understood, some sites will be considered sufficiently significant to warrant their preservation in situ in spatial planning processes. This is very unlikely, however, to be the case for sites whose existence or significance is unknown or only vaguely indicated until development is well underway. Nevertheless, just as on land, development-led archaeology in maritime and offshore projects presents challenges and enormous opportunities for archaeological research.

Fundamental research questions can be addressed without interfering with sites that indeed can be preserved in situ. Time constraints imposed by development-led archaeology on research call for tight and focused research planning. The cost of mitigation, including such research, can often be considered as integral to the project‟s development. In many countries [including those who are party to the European Convention on the Protection of the Archaeological Heritage adopted by the Council of Europe on 16 January 1992 in Valetta], this is regulated by law. However, even if it is not, these collateral costs for society are integral to the project and should be accounted for in the project‟s development. Maritime and offshore projects are often of such a scale that they call for explicit political decisions that should take the public interest in heritage into account.

Another external reason for excavation is the need to secure a site‟s continued existence, due to instability of the environment, or due to the fact that stabilizing it would be so exorbitant in cost that in situ preservation would not be the preferred option at all.

However, none of these reasons should prevent considering in situ preservation first. This applies to both the initiator and the authority who considers authorization. Understandably, initiators of projects will defend their interest in excavation. They tend to be very creative in finding and formulating reasons for excavation by amplifying the magnitude of vigorous threats to a site. According to their argument, it is almost invariably best to have the sites excavated. External reasons for excavation should therefore always be complemented by substantive reasons as referred to in Rule 1. Depending on the situation, these grounds can certainly be strong and urgent enough to decide on partial or complete excavation in preference to in situ preservation in the end.

Rule 1 explicitly mentions three overall purposes for which activities directed at underwater cultural heritage can be authorized. These substantive reasons are:

 a significant contribution to protection, or
 a significant contribution to knowledge, or
 a significant contribution to enhancement.

These three purposes are mostly intertwined, but independently each can, under certain circumstances, be reason enough for undertaking an activity directed at heritage. The argument for excavation should be convincing and will mostly include a combination of reasons. In exceptional cases a contribution to knowledge can be enough.

The history of underwater archaeology has seen quite a few examples in which interest for the underwater cultural heritage of a certain type or period, or in a specific region, first arose through an exemplary excavation. Sometimes these were well-planned operations whereas in other instances, they shamefully remind us of the pioneering years in archaeology. Their common characteristic is that long-term preservation in situ was very low on the initiator‟s agenda, although at the better end of the spectrum, the operations were certainly undertaken with long-term preservation in mind, „in a manner consistent with the protection of that heritage’, to use the phrase as used by Rule 1.

It is ironic that our present concern for the underwater cultural heritage might not have arisen if these pioneering – and sometimes exemplary – excavations had not stimulated our consciousness. In less explored areas and for other types of heritage it can well be argued that exemplary intrusive research or a model excavation will do much to enhance the consciousness necessary for the development of well-considered policies, although with present technology, enhancement of understanding can very often be attained by other than intrusive means.

In exceptional cases, a very good research design, addressing pertinent research questions, can be reason enough to sacrifice a stable site through excavation. However, it is certainly not the first option, and needs to meet the maximum requirements of state-of-the-art archaeological projects."

 

[Alexandre]

Filipe's article

 

[Alexandre]

last part

 

[Au_Dreamers]

and that is most of my point when Archaeologists write these types of articles.

Surely for someone formally educated they intentional omit the phrase "SOME treasure hunters" on purpose!

My momma once told me stereotyping is bad...

 

[VOC]

Alexandre, I am amazed you as an ex Underwater Archaeologist (now a Cultural Resource Manager CRM) that you go along with the flawed thinking of the un-elected fools at UNESCO that dreamt up all that crap.

If your Cult leaders said it was good to excavate all wrecks, you would excavate every good every wreck someone else found for you (and deep down inside you know it to be true).

In-Situ preservation is a temporary trend purported by many archaeologist with little or no real practical experience on historic shipwreck (you can get a MA Degree in Underwater Archaeology with as little as one week of field work), so we just have to wait until a new Guru makes his mark in the academic and legislative word who will then change things back for the better.

It has been shown on hundreds of wrecks that the sooner you excavate the more information you can get. All wrecks are on a timeline from a complete vessel minutes before sinking to a stage where no definable wreck material can be found.

This timeline will vary for all wrecks, and the curve from 100% to nothing may differ depending on artefact or wreck material and location, but the laws of nature tell you that all substances eventually go back to their natural state, so some material is gone in hours, some in weeks, some in years, and some may take hundreds or even thousands of years, but the fact is all of our cultural heritage is disappearing by the day and your profession is now not doing enough to record it, so it is a good job that amateur groups and professional salvors are doing a better job at recovering and recording our past.

Archaeologist go on about context but the truth is it does not really matter as wreck assemblage is an infinite variable, and any findings can only produce a final report that is full of assumptions and theoretical happenings, that could not be proven as a matter of factual evidence or is of no importance or benefit at all to mankind (at best it might be mildly interesting to the few students that may ever read the report).

Having been involved in historic wreck for over 32 years and reading nearly every copy of the IJNA during that time, I feel that the current trend is fatally flawed and you will not be thanked by future generations for sitting back and letting these sites disappear when our generation have the resources and technology to record most of the remaining information on these sites.

The same goes for the hundreds of man hours wasted measuring and then drawing sections of wreck or areas of rock that that may look good in a report but in reality tells us absolutely nothing, when the same time, effort and resources could be used on recording the important or missing gaps in our knowledge that is contained on another site.

It is much better to get some relevant information from lots of wrecks than it is to gets lots of information from just a few wrecks, if we want to build up a fuller picture of our historical past.

Long live companies like Odyssey and the Fishers as we will all learn more from them than we will ever do from the academic community and the non-diving bureaucrat Archaeologist at UNESCO

 

[jeff k]

Divers Set Sights on Sunken WWII Ship Laden With Silver...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/science/26shipwreck.html

http://www.shipwreck.net/g2/gallery...ppaunderwater/side-scan+of+Gairsoppa.jpg.html