Odyssey Marine Article...

[4theMoney]

I agree with most of what Darren says with very few exceptions.
I argue on the side of Peru having ownership solely if one has to assume that Spain has some claim to title to ownership. I am not going to beat that dead horse anymore.
To me this argument isnt so much about odyssey, but domain, policy and government control......not to mention greed. Everyone is splitting hairs because so much is at stake. So who is right in all of this? Maybe none of the stakeholders or maybe all of them are partially right. Either way this bodes poorly for those of us that would enjoy the dream of discovering wrecks. I am not sure that I agree with making all of them Govt domain..... Make that "I am definatly against it".
Odyssey may have behaved somewhat poorly, but if they actually did anything wrong is more subjective to personal opinion than it is black or white in the court of law.(Note that I said black or white and not gray). I dont even really know. I do know that Odyssey probably made the only move they felt like was availiable to them and I dont disrespect them for that.
I am most interested in this post not because of who I want to be a winner or looser, but because I am afraid of what may be lost.

 

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[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

4theMoney you talk about greed, on who's part? Spain will not sell the coins as I have said many times, I know most will say, what
a waste all those coins in a Museum, I'm sure Peru will get a share for theirs as well. The Kingdom of Spain does not need to sell
the coins like Odyssey, Like most Government's they can raise taxes for more money.
For the Spanish its more about the People that Perished than bits of silver, but you are 100% right about what could be lost !
this will impact Treasure hunters all over the world.
Ossy

 

[4theMoney]

4theMoney you talk about greed, on who's part? Spain will not sell the coins as I have said many times, I know most will say, what
a waste all those coins in a Museum, I'm sure Peru will get a share for theirs as well. The Kingdom of Spain does not need to sell
the coins like Odyssey, Like most Government's they can raise taxes for more money.
For the Spanish its more about the People that Perished than bits of silver, but you are 100% right about what could be lost !
this will impact Treasure hunters all over the world.
Ossy

And that is where Our point of view is different. How many coins does a museum need?....And how will it help someone who died 200 years ago?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

4theMoney It's Not a matter of how many coins go into a Museum It's a matter of the Kingdom of
Spain giving clear Instruction's not to disturb the site ! Read Pizzo report, clearly documented !

Odyssey chose to extract all the coins they could find and do a runner back to the States. Question,
how does the Arizona memorial help the people that died 68 years ago? If you can answer this, it may help you understand.
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

By the way, I have the greatest of respect for all who Perished, Les we forget !
Sam

 

[Vox veritas]

4theMoney It's Not a matter of how many coins go into a Museum It's a matter of the Kingdom of
Spain giving clear Instruction's not to disturb the site ! Read Pizzo report, clearly documented !

Odyssey chose to extract all the coins they could find and do a runner back to the States. Question,
how does the Arizona memorial help the people that died 68 years ago? If you can answer this, it may help you understand.
Ossy

Ossy, in November 2005 Luis Valero and I was negotiating with the ministry of culture of Spain a proposal to recover the load and remains of the Mercedes. The ministry was favorable and a high official said that Spain was interested to recover it to be a ship of the Spanish Navy and to be able to fill the museums. All this comes in the indictment documents edited by the Guardia Civil (Spanish police) against several people, among them Luis Valero and I.
There are many more incongruities than for the time being it doesn't interest me to disclose.

 

[signumops]

The ships at Honolulu were not abandoned.

Disturbing the remains of the dead is a traditional skill of archaeology and is commonly practiced by archaeologists without obtaining the permission of the dead party's descendents. (that would be because the bodies have been abandoned)

Courts in the U.S. are supposedly secular, therefore, they can not claim a moral perspective on what to do with dead tissue... especially so since there are thousands of children murdered in the U.S. each year under the auspices of "Law". So we need hear nothing from the American courts regarding "war graves", "respect for the dead", and so forth. The hypocrisy is crushing.

It might be a very good idea to take all the Mercedes cash and split it amongst the salvors and the descendents of whomever happened to be aboard the vessel when it sank. These people did NOT abandon the ship, or its cargo. Yes, you're right, the Spanish government would not go to all that trouble, and surely, when it was discovered that the people on the Mercedes were not Spaniards, whatever returns that might be generated would be attached by Spain, no matter what. But, its a great notion and in total keeping with the traditional western values of ownership and inheritance. And then too, to be fair to the "dead" we must be sure that the ship can be fully identified and that absolutely every person on the ship at the time of the sinking can be identified. What a wildly optimistic notion! I feel so much better for having thought it! After all, these folks paid the ultimate price for transporting the money! Bilge water. Won't ever happen.

Let us not forget the case of the K-129, a Russian war grave (not really... no war at the time) which the American government, quite cleverly attempted to salvage, without permission of the Russian government, and certainly with no intention of returning any booty they obtained to the Russians, which included two nuclear torpedos. I don't recall the courts of the United States interceding on the behalf of the Russians in that case. Supposedly the four Russian sailors who were located within the salvage were given a burial at sea. This is a great example of government self-interest completely turning tradition on its head. Keep in mind that there was no money involved in this instance.

Now, at last, for the money... anybody who believes that a half billion dollars lying unsettled within the purview of the American court system will not attract flies, has lost touch with reality. They will swarm upon it, and over time, will carry it away, piece by piece.

Gold and silver will not raise the dead.

 

[jeff k]

Pearl Harbor Raid, 7 December 1941 --
Salvage Work on USS Arizona, 1942-43

There was never much expectation that the shattered wreck of the Arizona could be raised and returned to service. Though consideration was given to cutting loose the the ship's relatively intact after portion and refloating it, divers' examinations of the wreck indicated that the work involved would not be worthwhile.

During 1942, most of the battleship's guns were removed and many of these were put back into service. Her two after turrets, and their 14"/50 guns, were turned over to the Army for use in coastal defense emplacements on Oahu. One of these two fortifications was completed far enough to fire test shots at the end of World War II, but neither achieved combat-ready status. Both were discarded following the war. Also removed were Arizona's intact tripod mainmast and partially collapsed foremast, armored conning tower, bridge and most of the rest of her superstructure. The ship's hull was left where it sank, a tomb for many of whose who lost their lives with her, and ultimately a memorial to her casualties and to all those killed in the Pearl Harbor raid.

 

[jeff k]

It's common knowledge that the Spanish salvaged any wreck that they could. Did they care that they were disturbing a grave site? I find it ironic that the Spanish are now using the grave site argument against Odyssey.

 

[ivan salis]

any the spanish did it when the bodies were freshly dead from the wreckage -- the gold and silver came before the "honored" dead then (and now as well) since dead in the ocean is dead in the ocean weither it 50 feet offshore or 500 miles out to sea.

 

[4theMoney]

Just look at what happened to the USS Monitor. NOAA raised the turret and disturbed human remains disregarding and disrespecting any potential decendents so they could use it as a showpiece. It seems its alright for the Archies and Gov't to do as they please.
Ossy, It is still unclear to me from all these posts if the Wrecksite(Which probably is the Mercedes but hasent been proven), qualifies as soveign immune. That being said,there is also a difference in my mind between disturbing a site where people died and disturbing remains....the two being very different in my opinion.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

4theMoney, Two years of work going through the evidence by a US Judge !
http://www.abc.es/gestordocumental/uploads/Cultura/ody_report_and_recomm.pdf
Ossy

 

[mariner]

There is also a difference in my mind between disturbing a site where people died and disturbing remains....the two being very different in my opinion.

4theMoney,

For what it is worth, I agree with you. I think it is possible to salvage a wreck that might contain human remains. It is a matter of applying due care, and treating them with due respect if they are found. My point earlier was that it was not Spain who caused the coins to be brought up, thus giving them the dilemma as to what to do with them, and I am not sure that there has to be an official state of war for a site to be treated as a war grave. Being attacked and sunk/blown up by another nation's war ships would seem to fit the bill.

Mariner

ps: I am still interested to know if the site where the coins were found is in Portuguese waters, as Darren said in an earlier post. Does anybody know the location?

 

[Salvor6]

According to Carl Claussen, the day after the 1715 fleet wrecked, the survivors looted the dead bodies that washed ashore and started marching north with the gold they got out of the dead pockets!

 

[ivan salis]

no royal decree in writing --but rather the actions that occured speak very clearly ( the spanish that had ship wrecked were salvaging the 1715 fleet from the get go --- and some of the guys from the fleet looted money from the bodies of the dead and from the wrecks and took off for st augustine with the cash *** the survivors sent a launch ahead to st augustine to warn them of these looters that were headed there --the looters clearly hoped to "hop" on a ship and get away before word got there of what had occured --- upon arrival they were grabbed up and killed --- so the spanish own records show "grab the bucks & screw the dead" was practiced by the spanish -- who is skippy ? -- my name is Ivan *

 

[jeff k]

From the Admiralty arrest:

The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100
meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation
approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

no royal decree in writing --but rather the actions that occured speak very clearly ( the spanish that had ship wrecked were salvaging the 1715 fleet from the get go --- and some of the guys from the fleet looted money from the bodies of the dead and from the wrecks and took off for st augustine with the cash *** the survivors sent a launch ahead to st augustine to warn them of these looters that were headed there --the looters clearly hoped to "hop" on a ship and get away before word got there of what had occured --- upon arrival they were grabbed up and killed --- so the spanish own records show "grab the bucks & screw the dead" was practiced by the spanish -- who is skippy ? -- my name is Ivan *

So what happen to the looters, Killed you say So what's the message?
grab the bucks & screw the dead and you get killed for stealing from the crown and your point?
I thought SWR was talking to me ( Skippy nick name for Aussies )
Thank you for the post Ivan
Sam

 

[Vox veritas]

From the Admiralty arrest:

The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100
meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation
approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar.

Jeff, 100 or 180 miles ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_Project

Odyssey Marine says .....http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2007/oct/20/mainsection.ianjack

http://blogs.ngm.com/

law.vanderbilt.edu/publications/journal-of-transnational-law/download.aspx?id=3955 -

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/print/140632.htm

Here the explanation:
http://theblueplanetcorporation.wor...ua-la-batalla-con-odyssey-marine-esploration/

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning, isn't most history effectively 'make believe' of what actually happened until quite recently? Even there hmmmm

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[mariner]

Jeff,

Thanks for the info about the location.

Mariner