Odyssey Marine Article...

[Cablava]

4 the Money

Tell that to the North American Indians, "Land is the greatest Treasure" Worth much more than the paltry sum of gold and silver removed and anyway Peru etc. have got their land back less some silver etc. and with the loss of many people. So when are the Americans going to give the Indians their land back and their oil and gold etc. Your argument does not stick.

 

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[4theMoney]

4 the Money

Tell that to the North American Indians, "Land is the greatest Treasure" Worth much more than the paltry sum of gold and silver removed and anyway Peru etc. have got their land back less some silver etc. and with the loss of many people. So when are the Americans going to give the Indians their land back and their oil and gold etc. Your argument does not stick.

Sure my argument sticks. My ancestors were wrong to steal the american indians land just as Spain was wrong to enslave and loot the americas. I guess the question now is what do we do about it? I know plenty about history, and wrong is wrong. If Spain can still lay claim to somthing it looted 500yrs ago then the people of Peru should be able to claim it just the same......AND it was theirs first. I personally would find it funny to give peru all of its stolen wealth back and the American indians All of their land. Then all of us americans would be moving back to europe. Just imagine 300 million americans milling and mucking about in europe building even more McDonalds.......Funny really
We were wrong to steal from and mistreat the Native americans and so was Spain, so yeah if we want to be retroactive and award Peru its cultural treasures then I am fine with the native americans getting their land back.

 

[Saturna]

Humans don't 'own' land, they only control it.

And the history of mankind is that of one group taking control from another. Sometimes this happened on a large scale and sometimes on a small scale.

Right and wrong depends on the point of view of each side. This varies wildly.




Jay

 

[hmmm]

I found this , can any tell me what this means "Droits of the Crown"


The battle
At dawn on 5 October, the Spanish frigates sighted the coast of Portugal. At 7 a.m. they sighted the four British frigates. Bustamante ordered his ships into line of battle, and within an hour the British came up in line, to windward of the Spaniards and "within pistol-shot".

Moore, the British Commodore, sent Lieutenant Ascott to the Spanish flagship Medea, to explain his orders. Bustamante naturally refused, and impatient of delays, at 10 a.m. Moore ordered a shot be fired ahead over the bows of Medea. Almost immediately a general exchange of fire broke out. Within ten minutes the Mercedes was destroyed when her magazine exploded, and only about 40 of her 240 crew were rescued. Within half an hour the Santa Clara and the Medea had surrendered, and the Fama broke away and attempted to flee, pursued by the Medusa. Moore ordered the faster Lively to pursue, and she was also captured a few hours later. The three frigates were taken to Gibraltar, and then to Gosport, England.


[edit] The results
Spain declared war on Great Britain on 14 December 1804, only to suffer a catastrophic defeat less than a year later at the battle of Trafalgar in October 1805. Napoleon, having crowned himself Emperor on 2 December, gained Spain as an ally in his war against Britain.

Under the terms of the Cruizers and Convoys Act of 1708 ships captured at sea were "Droits of the Crown" and became the property of their captors, who received the full value of the ships and cargo in prize money. However, since technically Britain and Spain were not at war at the time of the action, the Admiralty Court ruled that the three ships were "Droits of the Admiralty", and all revenues would revert to them. The four Spanish ships carried a total of 4,286,508 million Spanish dollars in silver and gold coin, as well as 150,000 gold ingots, 75 sacks of wool, 1,666 bars of tin, 571 pigs of copper, seal skins and oil, although 1.2 million in silver, half the copper and a quarter of the tin went down with the Mercedes. Still, the remaining ships and cargo were assessed at a value of £900,000 (equivalent to £60,810,000 today.[1]). After much legal argument an ex gratia payment was made which, according to one account, amounted to £250,000. If so, each of the four Captains

 

[mariner]

hmmm,

Very interest post. Thanks for that.

Point of information: Spain was already Napoleon's ally by the time of the Battle of Trafalgar, and the fleet that Nelson defeated was a joint French Spanish fleet, under the command of a French admiral. Spain lost 22 ships.

Apart from that, the word "Droit" is the french word for "right", meaning either "as opposed to left" or as in "the right to bear arms". In law, it appears that "droit" implies ownership, rather than just possession.

I haven't looked up that act yet, but I wonder if it says anything about sunken, rather than captured, ships.

Mariner

 

[mariner]

The Act does not cover sunken ships. It was a British Act, so no doubt Spain would not consider it as applying to them. Besides Clause XIV says "And this Act to continue during this war and no longer". I think that the idea of prizes at sea is as old as the hills. This particular Act defined a very specific distribution of the booty among all vessels in sight at the time of capture.

Mariner

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

4 the Money

Tell that to the North American Indians, "Land is the greatest Treasure" Worth much more than the paltry sum of gold and silver removed and anyway Peru etc. have got their land back less some silver etc. and with the loss of many people. So when are the Americans going to give the Indians their land back and their oil and gold etc. Your argument does not stick.

Sure my argument sticks. My ancestors were wrong to steal the American Indians land just as Spain was wrong to enslave and loot the Americas. I guess the question now is what do we do about it? I know plenty about history, and wrong is wrong. If Spain can still lay claim to something it looted 500yrs ago then the people of Peru should be able to claim it just the same......AND it was theirs first. I personally would find it funny to give Peru all of its stolen wealth back and the American Indians All of their land. Then all of us Americans would be moving back to Europe. Just imagine 300 million Americans milling and mucking about in Europe building even more McDonald's.......Funny really
We were wrong to steal from and mistreat the Native Americans and so was Spain, so yeah if we want to be retroactive and award Peru its cultural treasures then I am fine with the native Americans getting their land back.

Good post 4themoney, now if we could all learn from our mistakes.
Ossy

 

[jeff k]

Between the time gold was discovered in California and 1870, over 100,000 "friendly" Indians were killed for sport and bounty. We all know that Spain was not the only country to commit atrocities, but that's not the point here. Spain is claiming that the coins from the Mercedes are part of her "cultural heritage." To me, that would be the same as the Germans claiming all the gold teeth and treasures the Nazis took are part of their "cultural heritage." If I were Spanish (or German) I'd be too ashamed of what my ancestors did to even want the treasures back.

 

[mariner]

Jeff,

Wasn't Spain's preference that it wanted the wreck of the Mercedes and its cargo to be left on the oceanbed undisturbed, as a war grave?

Perhaps if Spain has to take possession of the coins, as a result of Odyssey removing them all instead of just a small sample, they can use them to set up some kind of appropriate charitable trust.

Mariner

 

[jeff k]

Mariner... No war, then no war grave. By the way, Odyssey has documents showing the Spanish diplomats complained to the British for attacking four of their "merchant ships." These docs were put in evidence, but it seems that Pizzo either missed them or chose to ignore this evidence.

 

[Vox veritas]

Between the time gold was discovered in California and 1870, over 100,000 "friendly" Indians were killed for sport and bounty. We all know that Spain was not the only country to commit atrocities, but that's not the point here. Spain is claiming that the coins from the Mercedes are part of her "cultural heritage." To me, that would be the same as the Germans claiming all the gold teeth and treasures the Nazis took are part of their "cultural heritage." If I were Spanish (or German) I'd be too ashamed of what my ancestors did to even want the treasures back.

The one that is free of sins that he throws the first stone. Jeff are you and your conscience free of sins? Really I doubt it! You know very well.

 

[jeff k]

I've never been arrested by the Guardia Civil if that's what you mean, and I've never tried to extort money from anyone.

 

[hmmm]

to me the coins look to well preserved to have been sitting on the ocean bed for the last 200 years. as if the came streight from a 200 year old vault.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Mariner... No war, then no war grave. By the way, Odyssey has documents showing the Spanish diplomats complained to the British for attacking four of their "merchant ships." These docs were put in evidence, but it seems that Pizzo either missed them or chose to ignore this evidence.

Jeff get over it ! Odyssey has lost. they should stop spending any more share holders money.
Ossy

 

[4theMoney]

For the record, I have nothing to do with Odyssey and I do not have odyssey stock or a treasure hunting entity.
The viewpoints I have expressed are purely from myself watching this whole thing unfold.

 

[Cablava]

4themoney

It still does not really stick.

I agree with most you have posted, however the native Americans are not living in their own country they are mainly repressed by the new American people, while the South American counter parts are living and owning their own land, without restriction (maybe). The difference is enormous. So is the time difference.

Jeff
Yes, I have been in salvage for just over 33 years and fortunately I have done very well out of it and can retire in comfort. Without buying lottery tickets or stock in companies like OMEX to get a chance of the big time.

You keep pointing at the wrongs done 500 years ago but are missing the point of a alleged wrong done just a little while ago. An alleged wrong which has very far reaching consequences for the rest of the active salvage world not just the treasure hunting world.
I can assure you my nose is pretty long and I can still see much farther than it 's extremity, and it seems infinity compared to yours for that matter, in fact I have extraordinary long vision. Maybe a reason why I do not need to gamble my pension on OMEX and an able chose my own adventures.

As I stated before, get over feeling sorry for yourself, it only shows in your posts, OMEX are out of this game, supreme court or not. The best thing is that they start to use what resources they have, to do what the company's printed approach stated on their web site is.

While I do not agree their equipment is the state of the art anymore, it will still work very well, and maybe they do have a great piece of software (one can only hope). Lets see them back in the water doing what it can do. They have a lot to offer but need to change their method of business, if they wanted to be in the lawfirm then they should have become lawyers it would have been a lot cheaper. The reason they took the stuff back to the US was for US protection, and Pizo was always your man, and now you complain when he makes a judgement based on all the facts put by the two parties. Stick to making unbiased posts.

Regards

 

[Vox veritas]

I've never been arrested by the Guardia Civil if that's what you mean, and I've never tried to extort money from anyone.

Jeff, the accusers will become accused and the innocent heroes and patriots. About the extortion, we will already see!! At the end of the battle they are counted the deads, and the battle had just begun.
What about the problem on the La Linea court??

http://www.abc.es/hemeroteca/histor...temm-cofundador-de-odyssey_1641640581969.html

http://www.abc.es/20090609/cultura-cultura/odyssey-pide-juez-tiempo-20090609.html

 

[Darren in NC]

I'm amazed at the third parties who base their respects on another human being for whether their opinions of Odyssey are congruent. Having said that, let's look at the two extreme primary opinions...

1) The court ruled X years ago (or recently) regarding shipwrecks, therefore it should be abided by. Odyssey is a demon since they didn't abide by the ruling. They also totally disregarded archaeological integrity.

2) To hell with the "rules" - everyone knows that big gov't will never go after these wrecks. They are simply following the lead of the jealous PC crowd and claim their wrecks were never "abandoned" - even after centuries of no attempt to salvage. Odyssey should be able to keep their finds (or a large %).

If you are the type who follows rules, you'll always defend #1. If you're not, you'll defend #2. I won't entertain opinion #3 regarding Peru - I think for better or worse (I think worse), it was under the rule of Spain at the time.

I believe most people reading this thread fall somewhere in the gray area between #1 and #2. The debate centers around whether Odyssey erred a bit too much on #2. I think it's easy for those looking in hindsight to say what Odyssey should have done. While my heart leans much more to #2 (I would have loved the Boston Tea Party), my mind knows #1 is a reality to be dealt with and therefore it demands a higher ethical standard. Because of this, my opinion is that Odyssey should have consulted with Portugal (their waters) and Spain (on the chance that the "merchant vessel" angle didn't fly) to work out an agreement ahead of time before scooping up the goods. This has been their typical protocol in past projects. I was surprised when that didn't happen in this case. The problem with my opinion is that I don't have full knowledge of what Odyssey knew (or didn't know). They are a pubically traded company. They needed capital. At the time they may have thought this project was pushing the envelope, but still within their boundaries. I don't know. Their position as a world leader in treasure hunting demands the higher standard.

As I stated before, get over feeling sorry for yourself, it only shows in your posts....

Mike, I'm surprised at your emotional angle with Jeff. As a pattern, he has never resorted to emotional retorts. I've never seen him feeling sorry for himself or having the silly "I told you so" posts that several other trolls put here often. My experience is that Jeff simply states the facts as he sees them (whether I agree or not). Your success in the past is very commendable. Can you share how you and your team handled gov'ts then?

Stick to making unbiased posts.

Can anyone do this? Can you? Can I?

 

[mariner]

Darren,

I think I have missed something here. Is the site in Portuguese waters? How far is it from the coast of Portugal?

Mariner

 

[ivan salis]

ok odyssey -- IF as the judge "ass u me ed" it was in fact the mercedes * -- the vessel as discribed at the time "blew apart" in a massive explosion -- utterly blown to bits - the vessels "cargo" of coins scattered on the open ocean floor --not contained within a vessels hull since it was in fact "blown to bits" --as such there is in effect no "wreck site" in the normal meaning of the word --just a debris feild of sorts -- since the coins were laying on the ocean floor in plain sight for the most part --little if any disturbance of the site was done during the recovery --with the vessel being "blown to bits" any people aboard would have like wize been shredded to bits as well -- now the multi million dollar question ****-- ok lets say the vessel is the "spanish naval vessel" the mercedes * which blew apart into tiny bits and its cargo --a batch of money being sent back to spain by "private persons" --ie "private property- cargo" -- (****does the act of the vessel sinking convert --"private property" (the coins) somehow into "spanish govt property"? I think not )--- the coins were clearly listed in the manifest as "private money" and exactly who was shipping what amount --so thier ownership is known -- thus its "legal" heirs can be tracked down ---or does via the sinking the spanish govt suddenly get to claim that "private property" as thiers thus "robbing" it from the owners ? --- a vessel and its cargo are two differant things --- ask any shipping insurance agant --they "insure" them apart from one another (ship / cargo) thus they are not "one in the same" or "joined" --but rather two differant items

as "private funds" --for finding & recovering and taking care of & cleaning them up and restoring them to its legal "owners" --the heirs of those who shipped it * odyssey deserves a rather large cut of the finds / money.