New site?...with different clue versions?

[somehiker]

Hi Alan,

Hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but the 1847 markings are kinda obviously a reference to Barry Storm's version of the Peraltas. (This version appears to be wholly made up from a kernel of truth...at least it's not historically accurate). The 1847 markings, the scratching of Miguel and Pedro into the H/P map, seem to be a tribute to ol' Barry. Or, designed by a scam artist to elicit the attention of his target audience: Dutch Hunters.

I happen to also wholeheartedly agree with DAI, that the ALL CAPS lettering on the stones was not how anyone wrote back then. That style came into being when technical documents such as blueprints and mechanical drawings were being taught in schools, back when you had to actually draw them on a drafting table Anybody that has been graded in high school or college on their lettering in such documents will recognize the style. In fact, among people my age, I can tell who has had mechanical drawing, drafting, or such classes, just by looking at their handwriting. We all write in all caps, specifically the WAY we were taught to make them, and the way the "8" is written in 1847 is a dead give-away...only draftsmen and the like are trained to write an "8" with two circles one over the other. How people are being trained to write today, I have no idea. But the Spanish never wrote an eight that way, (EDIT: Same thing with the 1, the 4, and the 7) and they didn't write in all caps. At best, they are a modern interpretation of old treasure symbology, which is entirely possible.

Back to the dutch hunters and the stones: Bob Garman gives a story of how the Tumlinsons (Bob and Travis) viewed the stones...or more accurately, how Bob T. viewed the stones. To paraphrase the story, Miguel Pedro Peralta left Santa Fe just ahead of an American military column, taking a road less traveled...he had his own fortune and the Church's fortune with him...apparently the road less traveled was the Gila trail...my guess...anyway, this happens during the Mexican American War (1847). Upon nearing Sonora, Don Peralta buries the two treasures around Queen Creek, just in case he's intercepted by the Americans as he gets closer to the border. (EDIT: Which didn't exist yet)

Not saying any of this is true, but Bob Garmin had a habit of writing down the stories he was told, even if they contradicted each other...which to me kind of gives credence to his work...he didn't edit the stories so they would all make sense together.

Anyway, there's two, probably unpopular explanations for the 1847 markings on the stones.

"I happen to also wholeheartedly agree with DAI, that the ALL CAPS lettering on the stones was not how anyone wrote back then. That style came into being when technical documents such as blueprints and mechanical drawings were being taught in schools, back when you had to actually draw them on a drafting table Anybody that has been graded in high school or college on their lettering in such documents will recognize the style. "

The artist(s) who carved the stones may have been mestizo, who, when they began to create their own art (Mestizo Baroque) in the 1600's for churches, often used all capital letters within their works. In fact, their own given Spanish names may have been Pedro and Miguel. Use of all capital letters on stone carvings dates at least back to Greek and Roman times, and carries through to modern times. The Jesuit schools educated students of all castes, beginning at the age of 3yrs, in many subjects, including the various arts, Spanish and other languages where appropriate, metal working etc. On line, it doesn't take very long to find many contemporary and ancient examples of various quality stone carvings which use capital letters only. Don't lose sight of the stones as works of art, rather than just a scribbled set of directions on a hand-drawn map.



Don't believe I've ever come across a documented historical reference to a Miguel Pedro Peralta in Santa Fe, let alone one who departed with a load of personal and church treasures. But then again, Travis' uncle Bob was known to get hammered once in awhile. And Travis himself did say that he expected the stones would someday lead him to a "Peralta Treasure Room", rather than the LDM or one of Barry Storm's Peralta Mines.....despite the fact that he forgot to carve or scratch "Peralta" on any of the stones, LH and Stone Crosses included.
Gotta say, it's tough to figure that one out.

 

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[azdave35]

Part of the Das Luca scam.. probably goes with this long letter he wrote (this is page 4):

View attachment 1739318

not all das lucas's stuff is b.s....there are a couple things he come up with that some of us around goldfield believe

 

[wrmickel1]

"I happen to also wholeheartedly agree with DAI, that the ALL CAPS lettering on the stones was not how anyone wrote back then. That style came into being when technical documents such as blueprints and mechanical drawings were being taught in schools, back when you had to actually draw them on a drafting table Anybody that has been graded in high school or college on their lettering in such documents will recognize the style. "

The artist(s) who carved the stones may have been mestizo, who, when they began to create their own art (Mestizo Baroque) in the 1600's for churches, often used all capital letters within their works. In fact, their own given Spanish names may have been Pedro and Miguel. Use of all capital letters on stone carvings dates at least back to Greek and Roman times, and carries through to modern times. The Jesuit schools educated students of all castes, beginning at the age of 3yrs, in many subjects, including the various arts, Spanish and other languages where appropriate, metal working etc. On line, it doesn't take very long to find many contemporary and ancient examples of various quality stone carvings which use capital letters only. Don't lose sight of the stones as works of art, rather than just a scribbled set of directions on a hand-drawn map.

Don't believe I've ever come across a documented historical reference to a Miguel Pedro Peralta in Santa Fe, let alone one who departed with a load of personal and church treasures. But then again, Travis' uncle Bob was known to get hammered once in awhile. And Travis himself did say that he expected the stones would someday lead him to a "Peralta Treasure Room", rather than the LDM or one of Barry Storm's Peralta Mines.....despite the fact that he forgot to carve or scratch "Peralta" on any of the stones, LH and Stone Crosses included.
Gotta say, it's tough to figure that one out.

Ahh the Jesuit’s did go to school.

And Dave the Egyptians invented paper I believe
but still prefered to write in stone. It was ment to last forever

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

.....every year there is an award ceremony for treasure hunter of the year held at the goldfield ghost town...i donate the sandstone they make the award with because i'm the only one around here with any sand stone..i get it from northern arizona where it is in abundance...as far as i know there is no sandstone anywhere near the supers...

The Jesuits were from all countries, The same person did not carve all the maps. The word spelling is off, more to how a Englishmen wood spell them, like Me. The symbols on them are Jesuit’s So you all know were they got there start. It was Not Mexico.

Babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Ohh Dave there is sand stone in the supers in the wilderness area.

lots of it,

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Ohh Dave there is sand stone in the supers in the wilderness area.

lots of it,

babymick1

i already asked you this but here goes again...where?

 

[arcana-exploration]

One other thing, I have found a solution to part of the tablets, something that could not have been a coincidence, and Travis seems to have known nothing of it. If Travis did carve the stones, he would have used the information I discovered to support his hoax, and if the stones were not carved by Travis, then he would have used the same information in an attempt to solve them, so either way, Travis knew nothing of this discovery, which has me convinced that the stones have a real solution.

Allan, In your opinion, what if any is a scenario, in which 1847 means feet and not varas? Is there any way you could see that that could be the case? Thanks, Jeff.

 

[somehiker]

Check.

One other thing, then I will shut up: The Don and Cross stones have iconography that is similar to the purported Julia Thomas maps. The river up north, and how the mts are drawn in a zig-zag shape. And, as I said before, the Miguel, Pedro, and 1847 markings seem to be taken from Barry Storm.

The thing is, when RG posted pics of the stuff he found that belonged to Travis on the other channel, there were several copies of Julia Thomas' maps in there, and an early edition of Higham/Barnard that repeated the Barry Storm story about the Peraltas, almost word for word. Seems Travis was a map buyer?

Do you have a collection of material references with any of the same things, Jim.
Does Dave ?
I do, because I'm interested in all this stuff, and I'd be willing to bet Travis was too.
Especially if he had something that he thought would make him a Millionaire.

 

[azdave35]

Do you have a collection of material references with any of the same things, Jim.
Does Dave ?
I do, because I'm interested in all this stuff, and I'd be willing to bet Travis was too.
Especially if he had something that he thought would make him a Millionaire.

everyone has a collection of junk laying around..what we would really like to see is proof that those door stops that the flagg foundation was going to throw in the trash actually lead to a mine or treasure

 

[Al D]

Allan, In your opinion, what if any is a scenario, in which 1847 means feet and not varas? Is there any way you could see that that could be the case? Thanks, Jeff.

I do not believe that 1847 is any type of distance figure, vertical or horizontal, I believe that the number represents a sequence of events or steps 1-8-4-7

 

[Al D]

everyone has a collection of junk laying around..what we would really like to see is proof that those door stops that the flagg foundation was going to throw in the trash actually lead to a mine or treasure

They lead to neither,

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Do you have a collection of material references with any of the same things, Jim.
Does Dave ?
I do, because I'm interested in all this stuff, and I'd be willing to bet Travis was too.
Especially if he had something that he thought would make him a Millionaire.

No, I don't have a collection of 3 different Julia Thomas maps, in fact I've never bought a single map to any treasure. Looks to me like Travis did? How do we know he didn't buy the Don and Cross maps? I feel bad for the guy. If he was in AZ back then poking around in the Supes, there were probably 10 guys lined up at the bar trying to sell him a map.

 

[wrmickel1]

i already asked you this but here goes again...where?

Can’t really say, it’s alittle to close to my Heart, Dave
if you know what I mean. I do believe the clue, No miner will find my mine,

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

No, I don't have a collection of 3 different Julia Thomas maps, in fact I've never bought a single map to any treasure. Looks to me like Travis did? How do we know he didn't buy the Don and Cross maps? I feel bad for the guy. If he was in AZ back then poking around in the Supes, there were probably 10 guys lined up at the bar trying to sell him a map.

Potbelly

Cause Janie said he found them, That’s a first hand account to the fact.

babymick1

 

[PotBelly Jim]

"I happen to also wholeheartedly agree with DAI, that the ALL CAPS lettering on the stones was not how anyone wrote back then. That style came into being when technical documents such as blueprints and mechanical drawings were being taught in schools, back when you had to actually draw them on a drafting table Anybody that has been graded in high school or college on their lettering in such documents will recognize the style. "

The artist(s) who carved the stones may have been mestizo, who, when they began to create their own art (Mestizo Baroque) in the 1600's for churches, often used all capital letters within their works. In fact, their own given Spanish names may have been Pedro and Miguel. Use of all capital letters on stone carvings dates at least back to Greek and Roman times, and carries through to modern times. The Jesuit schools educated students of all castes, beginning at the age of 3yrs, in many subjects, including the various arts, Spanish and other languages where appropriate, metal working etc. On line, it doesn't take very long to find many contemporary and ancient examples of various quality stone carvings which use capital letters only. Don't lose sight of the stones as works of art, rather than just a scribbled set of directions on a hand-drawn map.



Don't believe I've ever come across a documented historical reference to a Miguel Pedro Peralta in Santa Fe, let alone one who departed with a load of personal and church treasures. But then again, Travis' uncle Bob was known to get hammered once in awhile. And Travis himself did say that he expected the stones would someday lead him to a "Peralta Treasure Room", rather than the LDM or one of Barry Storm's Peralta Mines.....despite the fact that he forgot to carve or scratch "Peralta" on any of the stones, LH and Stone Crosses included.
Gotta say, it's tough to figure that one out.

What, are the stone maps Roman now? Carved by Roman Jesuits? Referring to the pics you posted.

And deducer, do you know why the gravestones from the early 1900's and later were carved that way? It has nothing to do with any Spanish or Mexican way of carving, or how they would have carved the stone maps back in 1847.

I've never seen anything on the Miguel Pedro Peralta story either, related by Garmin. It kind of makes sense, though, that they were looking for a treasure vice a mine. Wouldn't be the first time someone went looking for treasure in the Supes based on a bogus Peralta story.

SH, do you believe that these stones are actually from the 1840's? Do you think it's possible that they might be much more modern than that, but based on older material?

 

[wrmickel1]

I do not believe that 1847 is any type of distance figure, vertical or horizontal, I believe that the number represents a sequence of events or steps 1-8-4-7

I’m gonna go with the year.

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Can’t really say, it’s alittle to close to my Heart, Dave
if you know what I mean. I do believe the clue, No miner will find my mine,

babymick1

in other words there is no sandstone in the volcanic region called the superstition mountains

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Potbelly

Cause Janie said he found them, That’s a first hand account to the fact.

babymick1

And Bob Ward said HE found them, and some cowboy said HE found them, and someone said Travis bought them from a Mexican guy that found them...who do we believe, Mick? Knowing what I know about the AZ treasure map-making business back then, it makes me wonder. Every one of these stories, including the Bilbrey crosses which he destroyed, and the latin heart which was destroyed, just serves to re-enforce my prejudices against those idiotic treasure maps and the scumbags that make them. I think they're all fake.

The only reason I'm even sitting through all this is to hear what SH has to say. I may not agree with some of his findings, but he doesn't pull stuff out of his a$$. I'm wondering what the differences between the stones are as I think there's enough evidence to say they might be from different sources.

 

[somehiker]

everyone has a collection of junk laying around..what we would really like to see is proof that those door stops that the flagg foundation was going to throw in the trash actually lead to a mine or treasure

Ain't that what we all want to see ?
At least those who have spent at least some time in trying to find whatever it is they "might" lead to.
But the ones who spent all their time focused on whatever negatives they could think of, probably won't get to see much... if anything .... themselves.
You got some sort of proof that Flagg ever considered throwing them in the trash ?
Considering the copies that were made of them sold out, even the smaller copies, with some sets even going to AJ locals, what do you think the "originals" would be worth to someone with enough interest and a bag of cash in hand ?
Why don't you suggest the SMM put them up on E-Bay ?
They could always use the cash for something you might like to see instead.

 

[wrmickel1]

in other words there is no sandstone in the volcanic region called the superstition mountains

Yes there is sandstone in the Volcanic Region called the Superstition Mountains

layered in 4ft thick sections then a thin layer of Calcite,Sandstone Calcite Sandstone Calcite it was the sea floor at one time. The Supers are mixed up, The high parts, The mesa’s are the old sea floors and the valleys are newer then the Tops.

babymick1