New site?...with different clue versions?

[PotBelly Jim]

I do see where you see the similarities Jim. I too have spent some time, and made a few comments in the past about the map and it's possible connections.
Have you considered the possibility the JT, being Waltz's primary caregiver during the final months of his life, had been given a similar map by JW, which she later, having given up the search herself, copied and sold. OR.....may have been given the map by someone else after her search for his mine was publicized. Regardless, it does give rise to a number of questions regarding it's similarity in some of the ways you mention.
So don't quit or shut up. Go ahead and keep on posting what you think, though I do have some other stuff I need to do today, so might be a bit slow to respond. Good thing it's a 3 day weekend up here.

For someone making a map, using simple zig-zag lines is pretty common for anyone trying to portray uneven ground...hills, mountains or even waves on water.... and who are not trying to create an artistic masterpiece. I've done so myself, long before I ever saw any of this stuff. I'd even bet my mom put some of my drawings of boats on wavy water up on the ice box way back when I was a kid.

Perhaps I should, but I don't consider any map or clues to the Lost Dutchman Mine to be valid, i.e. coming from JW. I guess I'm just jaded. Maybe I've seen too many old guys spewing whatever they could to some poor fool for the price of a beer. Good people then get ahold of that crap and they waste their time, effort and money looking for something that just isn't there. I think there was a source of gold that JW found, I just don't believe any of the stories about where it was or how rich it was, etc.

I'd rather see what you have to say as I often wondered why there were things like ball courts in AZ (saw you posted a video on that...DAI strikes again!) and have a feeling there's something to it all...the Pimas seem to think there is.

 

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[sdcfia]

... Don't believe I've ever come across a documented historical reference to a Miguel Pedro Peralta in Santa Fe, let alone one who departed with a load of personal and church treasures. ...

Peralta was a very uncommon name in colonial New Mexico, although there is some evidence that an early farming community south of Albuquerque was named for a family of Peraltas killed in the 1680 revolt. These were Pedro, Miguel and Andres Peralta. The village's comprehensive development plan included the following blurb. Elsewhere, I remember that these Peraltas were soldiers.

" ... There are several candidates for the community’s namesake. Most accounts specifically eliminate the second colonial governor, Pedro de Peralta, suggesting instead that the village was named for Andre sand Miguel Peralta and their father Pedro, killed in Santo Domingo during the 1680 Revolt. This account suggests that the name was put forth by descendants of the Peraltas who lived in the area. ..." http://www.mrcog-nm.gov/DocumentCenter/View/3110/Town-of-Peralta-Comprehensive-Plan-May-2013-PDF

I tend to support the idea that the stone maps may not all refer to the same locations. When I overlay and rotate/register the left half of the Horse Map to southern New Mexico, I see a nice fit to the Gila River headwaters and the lower Rio Grande near the Caballo Mountains. I also note that the "cross" east of the Rio Grande in the Caballos falls close to the site allegedly known as "Willie's Cave" in the treasure lore there, and that the "omega" east of the Gila falls smack on "Map Cave", a well-known treasure-related site near Santa Rita del Cobre. Yes, the spelling/grammar on this rock is weird, but the implications could well simply be referencing the Caballo Range (named by Zebulon Pike in 1807) and Rio del Norte (today's Rio Grande). Why the big horse? To emphasize the Caballos? Quien sabe?

 

[sdcfia]

Perhaps I should, but I don't consider any map or clues to the Lost Dutchman Mine to be valid, i.e. coming from JW. I guess I'm just jaded. Maybe I've seen too many old guys spewing whatever they could to some poor fool for the price of a beer. Good people then get ahold of that crap and they waste their time, effort and money looking for something that just isn't there. I think there was a source of gold that JW found, I just don't believe any of the stories about where it was or how rich it was, etc.

I'd rather see what you have to say as I often wondered why there were things like ball courts in AZ (saw you posted a video on that...DAI strikes again!) and have a feeling there's something to it all...the Pimas seem to think there is.

Not jaded thoughts, but the work of a rational mind.

We don't know enough about the Southwest's pre-Spanish era. There could well be something of great value hidden in central Arizona that predates the Conquest.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Perhaps I should, but I don't consider any map or clues to the Lost Dutchman Mine to be valid, i.e. coming from JW. I guess I'm just jaded. Maybe I've seen too many old guys spewing whatever they could to some poor fool for the price of a beer. Good people then get ahold of that crap and they waste their time, effort and money looking for something that just isn't there. I think there was a source of gold that JW found, I just don't believe any of the stories about where it was or how rich it was, etc.

I'd rather see what you have to say as I often wondered why there were things like ball courts in AZ (saw you posted a video on that...DAI strikes again!) and have a feeling there's something to it all...the Pimas seem to think there is.

Where there is smoke there once was fire, and ball courts. IMO

 

[wrmickel1]

Had anyone examined the stone tablets if they are natural sediments or are bricks made at a specific time with materials found in the mountains? Is very easy to carve/scratch a brick when is still wet and before heat dry it in a oven.

Markmar

Mike has held the Stone’s, I’ve only put my finger on the glass. To me threw the glass they look like pottery and Carved while wet. As all the other sets I’ve seen look the same. As for markings that look like a tool was used to simply knock the burrs off after they were fired.

Gollum could answer the question.

babymick1

 

[gollum]

Not a brick. Natural rock.

Mike

 

[somehiker]

Peralta was a very uncommon name in colonial New Mexico, although there is some evidence that an early farming community south of Albuquerque was named for a family of Peraltas killed in the 1680 revolt. These were Pedro, Miguel and Andres Peralta. The village's comprehensive development plan included the following blurb. Elsewhere, I remember that these Peraltas were soldiers.

" ... There are several candidates for the community’s namesake. Most accounts specifically eliminate the second colonial governor, Pedro de Peralta, suggesting instead that the village was named for Andre sand Miguel Peralta and their father Pedro, killed in Santo Domingo during the 1680 Revolt. This account suggests that the name was put forth by descendants of the Peraltas who lived in the area. ..." http://www.mrcog-nm.gov/DocumentCenter/View/3110/Town-of-Peralta-Comprehensive-Plan-May-2013-PDF

I tend to support the idea that the stone maps may not all refer to the same locations. When I overlay and rotate/register the left half of the Horse Map to southern New Mexico, I see a nice fit to the Gila River headwaters and the lower Rio Grande near the Caballo Mountains. I also note that the "cross" east of the Rio Grande in the Caballos falls close to the site allegedly known as "Willie's Cave" in the treasure lore there, and that the "omega" east of the Gila falls smack on "Map Cave", a well-known treasure-related site near Santa Rita del Cobre. Yes, the spelling/grammar on this rock is weird, but the implications could well simply be referencing the Caballo Range (named by Zebulon Pike in 1807) and Rio del Norte (today's Rio Grande). Why the big horse? To emphasize the Caballos? Quien sabe?

View attachment 1739415

Thanks for the Peralta info and link Steve.
Look familiar ?
That Caballo and Cobollo are both singular.
The dashed line down the center.
The unusual "R" of "RIO" and the unusual " circle in circle" at the bottom of the dashed line.
Other stuff as well..........

 

[Secret squirl]

Does anyone know if Jacob Waltz had a middle name, or initial?

 

[Al D]

Markmar

Mike has held the Stone’s, I’ve only put my finger on the glass. To me threw the glass they look like pottery and Carved while wet. As all the other sets I’ve seen look the same. As for markings that look like a tool was used to simply knock the burrs off after they were fired.

Gollum could answer the question.

babymick1

I was allowed to inspect them closely just prior to them going on display at the museum, they are natural rock as Mike stated

 

[Oroblanco]

I still don't understand WHY the PSMs are put into the LDM forum at all. What exactly do the Peralta Stone Maps have to do with the Lost Dutchman's mine of Jacob Waltz? Thanks in advance.

 

[azdave35]

Ain't that what we all want to see ?
At least those who have spent at least some time in trying to find whatever it is they "might" lead to.
But the ones who spent all their time focused on whatever negatives they could think of, probably won't get to see much... if anything .... themselves.
You got some sort of proof that Flagg ever considered throwing them in the trash ?
Considering the copies that were made of them sold out, even the smaller copies, with some sets even going to AJ locals, what do you think the "originals" would be worth to someone with enough interest and a bag of cash in hand ?
Why don't you suggest the SMM put them up on E-Bay ?
They could always use the cash for something you might like to see instead.

i would rather see people out in the field covering the ground... not wasting their lives trying to figure out a fake map...i'm with jim...those stones have caused alot of misery around here...even lured quite a few people from other states to their death..jesse capen...curtis merworth..malcom meeks..ardean charles..all lured here by fake maps...every summer more tenderfoots come here with a 16 oz bottle of water and head into the mountains...pretty soon search and rescue has to risk their lives in 115 degree heat to try and rescue them....i have friends that have found alot of things in the mountains but not with a map...all i know is what the guys at flagg told me...why would the smm put the door stops on ebay?...they lure alot of people to the museum....i'm not negative wayne...just stating the facts

 

[Al D]

i would rather see people out in the field covering the ground... not wasting their lives trying to figure out a fake map...i'm with jim...those stone have caused alot of misery around here...even lured quite a few people from other states to their death..

Well, so has the LDM for that matter

 

[gollum]

I still don't understand WHY the PSMs are put into the LDM forum at all. What exactly do the Peralta Stone Maps have to do with the Lost Dutchman's mine of Jacob Waltz? Thanks in advance.

GEOGRAPHICALLY RELATIVE! LOL

For many years, the theory was that the Peraltas carried the Stone Maps with them from Mexico to the Supers. Didn't make a lot of sense, but that was the running theory. The stones were lashed to a mule, and when the Apache attacked the caravan, the stones fell to where Travis T picked them in 1949.

Ever since, the Stone Maps have been inextricably linked the the LDM.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Well, so has the LDM for that matter

true alan..back in the 50's it was the ldm that lured most people here...but once the door stops were made public and more people learned of them....then they were the main focus....i still know alot of people searching in the mountains...but most of them aren't searching for them ldm

 

[gollum]

i would rather see people out in the field covering the ground... not wasting their lives trying to figure out a fake map...i'm with jim...those stones have caused alot of misery around here...even lured quite a few people from other states to their death..jesse capen...curtis merworth..malcom meeks..ardean charles..all lured here by fake maps...every summer more tenderfoots come here with a 16 oz bottle of water and head into the mountains...pretty soon search and rescue has to risk their lives in 115 degree heat to try and rescue them....i have friends that have found alot of things in the mountains but not with a map...all i know is what the guys at flagg told me...why would the smm put the door stops on ebay?...they lure alot of people to the museum....i'm not negative wayne...just stating the facts

Jesse Capen I agree. Not so certain about Merworth, Meeks, and Ardean.

Haven't you heard the story about what brought them down here (and what happened after)? Some old Indian Merworth knew wound up drawing him a map that led them down by Yellow Peak. Actually a very good search area. Rick said whatever happened, happened at night. They had electric lanterns that were in the "ON" position when he found Ardean and Meeks. Rick also said that one had two smallish holes in his skull about the size of a .22. The other had ribs that looked blown out (remember Alien?). If all that wasn't weird enough, the story continues that after their deaths, the old Indian that drew them the map took a high dive from an overpass into traffic.

Now I can't vouch for the last part of the story, but it makes for good reading!

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Jesse Capen I agree. Not so certain about Merworth, Meeks, and Ardean.

Haven't you heard the story about what brought them down here (and what happened after)? Some old Indian Merworth knew wound up drawing him a map that led them down by Yellow Peak. Actually a very good search area. Rick said whatever happened, happened at night. They had electric lanterns that were in the "ON" position when he found Ardean and Meeks. Rick also said that one had two smallish holes in his skull about the size of a .22. The other had ribs that looked blown out (remember Alien?). If all that wasn't weird enough, the story continues that after their deaths, the old Indian that drew them the map took a high dive from an overpass into traffic.

Now I can't vouch for the last part of the story, but it makes for good reading!

Mike

lol...i'm not sure which map brought merworth here either but it was a phony....there is a BIG treasure close to where they were found...remind me at the rendezvous and i'll tell you a story...

 

[markmar]

GEOGRAPHICALLY RELATIVE! LOL

For many years, the theory was that the Peraltas carried the Stone Maps with them from Mexico to the Supers. Didn't make a lot of sense, but that was the running theory. The stones were lashed to a mule, and when the Apache attacked the caravan, the stones fell to where Travis T picked them in 1949.

Ever since, the Stone Maps have been inextricably linked the the LDM.

Mike

The only reason the stone maps would been carried by the Peraltas ( maybe only one time before the massacre ), was they were looking for the treasure or what the stones represent and took them for future investigation.

 

[gollum]

lol...i'm not sure which map brought merworth here either but it was a phony....there is a BIG treasure close to where they were found...remind me at the rendezvous and i'll tell you a story...

I might have some idea of the story, since Rick Gwynne was the one that found them! LOL Is it a RED Story?

Mike

 

[markmar]

lol...i'm not sure which map brought merworth here either but it was a phony....there is a BIG treasure close to where they were found...remind me at the rendezvous and i'll tell you a story...

What you have stated in your post about treasure close to Yellow Peak would has the same result like a fake or phony map.
IMHO, there is not any treasure around that region and never was. Only if somebody lost his Rolex watch while hiking on that mountain.

 

[somehiker]

i would rather see people out in the field covering the ground... not wasting their lives trying to figure out a fake map...i'm with jim...those stones have caused alot of misery around here...even lured quite a few people from other states to their death..jesse capen...curtis merworth..malcom meeks..ardean charles..all lured here by fake maps...every summer more tenderfoots come here with a 16 oz bottle of water and head into the mountains...pretty soon search and rescue has to risk their lives in 115 degree heat to try and rescue them....i have friends that have found alot of things in the mountains but not with a map...all i know is what the guys at flagg told me...why would the smm put the door stops on ebay?...they lure alot of people to the museum....i'm not negative wayne...just stating the facts

Then why not start a petition to have them removed from display at the museum.
Maybe organize a protest march or something to go along with it.
Seem to work for the folks getting Civil War statues removed lately.

You could also refrain from posting stuff like this....

lol...i'm not sure which map brought merworth here either but it was a phony....there is a BIG treasure close to where they were found...remind me at the rendezvous and i'll tell you a story...

Which is all it might take to get some tenderfoot with a 16oz bottle of water to head out to Yellow Peak tomorrow, looking for what you are talking about.