New site?...with different clue versions?

[PotBelly Jim]

Ain't that what we all want to see ?
At least those who have spent at least some time in trying to find whatever it is they "might" lead to.
But the ones who spent all their time focused on whatever negatives they could think of, probably won't get to see much... if anything .... themselves.
You got some sort of proof that Flagg ever considered throwing them in the trash ?
Considering the copies that were made of them sold out, even the smaller copies, with some sets even going to AJ locals, what do you think the "originals" would be worth to someone with enough interest and a bag of cash in hand ?
Why don't you suggest the SMM put them up on E-Bay ?
They could always use the cash for something you might like to see instead.

SH, if we took every copy of the stones, including the originals (which I'm suspecting we've never seen) we could raise a ton of money. There's always a market for any kind of treasure map.

If we sold them saying they were 110% proven to be fake, there would still be some guy hitting us up in private trying to negotiate a price.

We're kind of veering off track here, and I know I had a lot to do with it. That's why I wanted to keep my mouth shut (but couldn't quite pull it off).

Take care, Jim

 

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[somehiker]

What, are the stone maps Roman now? Carved by Roman Jesuits? Referring to the pics you posted.

And deducer, do you know why the gravestones from the early 1900's and later were carved that way? It has nothing to do with any Spanish or Mexican way of carving, or how they would have carved the stone maps back in 1847.

I've never seen anything on the Miguel Pedro Peralta story either, related by Garmin. It kind of makes sense, though, that they were looking for a treasure vice a mine. Wouldn't be the first time someone went looking for treasure in the Supes based on a bogus Peralta story.

SH, do you believe that these stones are actually from the 1840's? Do you think it's possible that they might be much more modern than that, but based on older material?

Not really "Roman" Jim. But I'll betcha there was a few of them Jesuits paid a visit to Rome once or twice. Maybe even other places where simple block capital letters had been used exclusively for carvings on stone. Lots of folks, including stone carvers I would guess, seem to think capitalization adds emphasis to what they are saying.....EVEN HERE.

Nope. I suspect older, based on things I have found out there and some of the research I've done on that stuff.
And definitely based on even older references, dating back at least to the mid to late 1500's.
Maybe even earlier than that.

 

[somehiker]

SH, if we took every copy of the stones, including the originals (which I'm suspecting we've never seen) we could raise a ton of money. There's always a market for any kind of treasure map.

If we sold them saying they were 110% proven to be fake, there would still be some guy hitting us up in private trying to negotiate a price.

We're kind of veering off track here, and I know I had a lot to do with it. That's why I wanted to keep my mouth shut (but couldn't quite pull it off).

Take care, Jim

That's why I had to laugh when Dave said what he did......SMDS made him do it I guess.

So long as we keep talking LDM/Stone Maps, we're still on topic IMO. And I suspect Jeff doesn't mind seeing his thread hit 1000+ posts in only a few weeks. Just goes to show how interesting....and entertaining at times....a few of us find the subject.

 

[azdave35]

That's why I had to laugh when Dave said what he did......SMDS made him do it I guess.

So long as we keep talking LDM/Stone Maps, we're still on topic IMO. And I suspect Jeff doesn't mind seeing his thread hit 1000+ posts in only a few weeks. Just goes to show how interesting....and entertaining at times....a few of us find the subject.

the truth be told this forum would have been dead a long time ago if it weren't for those useless doorstops...they seem to be the only thing anyone on here wants to talk about

 

[somehiker]

the truth be told this forum would have been dead a long time ago if it weren't for those useless doorstops...they seem to be the only thing anyone on here wants to talk about

Well, they won't let anyone talk about cars no more.

 

[azdave35]

Well, they won't let anyone talk about cars no more.

yep..what's the world coming to?..

 

[wrmickel1]

And Bob Ward said HE found them, and some cowboy said HE found them, and someone said Travis bought them from a Mexican guy that found them...who do we believe, Mick? Knowing what I know about the AZ treasure map-making business back then, it makes me wonder. Every one of these stories, including the Bilbrey crosses which he destroyed, and the latin heart which was destroyed, just serves to re-enforce my prejudices against those idiotic treasure maps and the scumbags that make them. I think they're all fake.

The only reason I'm even sitting through all this is to hear what SH has to say. I may not agree with some of his findings, but he doesn't pull stuff out of his a$$. I'm wondering what the differences between the stones are as I think there's enough evidence to say they might be from different sources.

All the Crap And Claims never existed during Travis’s Time, All claimed after he passed. So I’m woundering why you even condsider any of it. It’s the same thing with the LDM. People attaching themselves to the Story. None is true.

Its like the meaning of 1847 not being the date, Common Sense says it’s the last year the mines operated knowing 1848 the Mexicans succeeded the land to the U.S. It’s as simple as that.

babymick1

 

[Al D]

I’m gonna go with the year.

babymick1

OK, to what purpose would placing the year, or any year, on the tablets serve?

 

[somehiker]

No, I don't have a collection of 3 different Julia Thomas maps, in fact I've never bought a single map to any treasure. Looks to me like Travis did? How do we know he didn't buy the Don and Cross maps? I feel bad for the guy. If he was in AZ back then poking around in the Supes, there were probably 10 guys lined up at the bar trying to sell him a map.

I've never bought any either. But I have too many to count, in multiple files on several computers, including most or all of those of the sups area that have been posted over the years. He could have bought them I guess. Back then you could still buy or trade antiquities from dealers or privately without running afoul of any specific laws....even ancient skeletal remains. Now that's limited to arrowheads, coins, and other small and common stuff like that. Due to NAGPRA, even the archaeos can't keep or even do much in the way of studying a lot of things they find out there if human remains are involved in any way.
I've always considered the story that he bought the trail stones from a mexican laborer as possible. It's not to far off from my theory that the H/P stone was left partly exposed during the excavation of the south bank of QC for the newer 2 lane US60 bridge and section of highway that bypassed the older road and Adolph Ruth bridge. Could be the trail stones and heart were dug up at the same time or during maintenance/regrading work in 1948 and were noticed and grabbed by one of those working there at the time. This scenario might even account for the "hosing them off at the gas station" story as well. Since there were at least two gas stations just down the road at Florence Junction back then, and Travis certainly could have stopped there on his way from Hood River to Texas that December. Had he seen the mexican hosing off the stones, and given his known interest in stone carvings and old maps, I'm sure he would have offered to buy them.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I do not believe that 1847 is any type of distance figure, vertical or horizontal, I believe that the number represents a sequence of events or steps 1-8-4-7

Thanks that is food for thought. IMO it never was a date ( the treaty thing IMO is just a fluke being on the ( with 1847 on stones). One more question did the Jesuits or Spanish, during the time of New Spain ever use feet as a measurement? Thanks, Jeff.

 

[Al D]

Thanks that is food for thought. IMO it never was a date ( the treaty thing IMO is just a fluke being on the ( with 1847 on stones). One more question did the Jesuits or Spanish, during the time of New Spain ever use feet as a measurement? Thanks, Jeff.

No, but the Germans did, and as I am sure you know, Spain imported German miners almost as soon as they started mining here

 

[Al D]

I've never bought any either. But I have too many to count, in multiple files on several computers, including most or all of those of the sups area that have been posted over the years. He could have bought them I guess. Back then you could still buy or trade antiquities from dealers or privately without running afoul of any specific laws....even ancient skeletal remains. Now that's limited to arrowheads, coins, and other small and common stuff like that. Due to NAGPRA, even the archaeos can't keep or even do much in the way of studying a lot of things they find out there if human remains are involved in any way.
I've always considered the story that he bought the trail stones from a mexican laborer as possible. It's not to far off from my theory that the H/P stone was left partly exposed during the excavation of the south bank of QC for the newer 2 lane US60 bridge and section of highway that bypassed the older road and Adolph Ruth bridge. Could be the trail stones and heart were dug up at the same time or during maintenance/regrading work in 1948 and were noticed and grabbed by one of those working there at the time. This scenario might even account for the "hosing them off at the gas station" story as well. Since there were at least two gas stations just down the road at Florence Junction back then, and Travis certainly could have stopped there on his way from Hood River to Texas that December. Had he seen the mexican hosing off the stones, and given his known interest in stone carvings and old maps, I'm sure he would have offered to buy them.

I do not believe any of the numerous stories of how the tablets were found, I think they were all made up so that if one story was discovered to be false, it could be claimed that one of the other stories was the true one. The question I want to answer is why would Travis make up any story of how the tablets were found, there must be some situational clue to their solution which Travis needed to keep secret, like where or whom he got the stones from.

 

[arcana-exploration]

No, but the Germans did, and as I am sure you know, Spain imported German miners almost as soon as they started mining here[/QUOT

Thanks, I had read that a couple of years ago and had forgotten that. So Kino was Austrian, but from a german speaking provenance, do you suppose Kino ever used feet as a measurement. I need to look at some of his old maps, but he probably would have used Spanish, varas and such on those early maps. But if a Jesuit, with Austrian - German lineage was making a secretive Mapa would he possibly, revert to his roots to further confuse, people that were less educated than the Jesuits were? Just thinking out loud?

 

[arcana-exploration]

Did Travis know Frank Fish? Where was Travis when Frank Fish was killed?

 

[markmar]

in other words there is no sandstone in the volcanic region called the superstition mountains

Had anyone examined the stone tablets if they are natural sediments or are bricks made at a specific time with materials found in the mountains? Is very easy to carve/scratch a brick when is still wet and before heat dry it in a oven.

 

[somehiker]

OK, to what purpose would placing the year, or any year, on the tablets serve?

When the date serves to pinpoint a time and place of significance to someone. Maker and intended reader.
Like these guys did......on paper and stone
This one being the year One Tecpatl (flint or obsidian knife) which corresponds with 1168 ce.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Not really "Roman" Jim. But I'll betcha there was a few of them Jesuits paid a visit to Rome once or twice. Maybe even other places where simple block capital letters had been used exclusively for carvings on stone. Lots of folks, including stone carvers I would guess, seem to think capitalization adds emphasis to what they are saying.....EVEN HERE.

Nope. I suspect older, based on things I have found out there and some of the research I've done on that stuff.
And definitely based on even older references, dating back at least to the mid to late 1500's.
Maybe even earlier than that.

Oh I guess a few of them Jesuits got to Rome now and then

That being said, I bet those guys knew the difference between a "V" and a "B" now that you mention it...both letters being part of the Latin script and all

But maybe a young pasty-white Texan might make that mistake. And feel that Yo is necessary when saying voy a lugares 18...

En boca cerrada no entran moscas...

All that stuff has been hashed over and I'm going to accept that you have a good reason to believe that the stones are ancient and just go with it. It looks like you've started to make some posts on what you've found in your research, so I'll just quit and listen.

 

[somehiker]

Take another look at the illustration above, where I added something to address what you had said yesterday.

"One other thing, then I will shut up: The Don and Cross stones have iconography that is similar to the purported Julia Thomas maps. The river up north, and how the mts are drawn in a zig-zag shape. "

As you can see, JT wasn't the first to use zig-zags when drawing mountains.
The Aztec called it Colhuacan.....the bent or crooked mountain. That big glyph with the zig-zag on it, was one of the ways they represented it on their codices. Other versions had the curl going to the right side, and one version even had two curls going both ways.
The Pima called Superstition Mountain "the crooked mountain" as well.
And Ron Feldman used it for the title of one of his books.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Take another look at the illustration above, where I added something to address what you had said yesterday.

"One other thing, then I will shut up: The Don and Cross stones have iconography that is similar to the purported Julia Thomas maps. The river up north, and how the mts are drawn in a zig-zag shape. "

As you can see, JT wasn't the first to use zig-zags when drawing mountains.
The Aztec called it Colhuacan.....the bent or crooked mountain. That big glyph with the zig-zag on it, was one of the ways they represented it on their codices. Other versions had the curl going to the right side, and one version even had two curls going both ways.
The Pima called Superstition Mountain "the crooked mountain" as well.
And Ron Feldman used it for the title of one of his books.

OK, I can see it.

Now, to humor me, compare JT's mountains to the ones on the stone maps. Which ones look more like the ones on the stone maps?

Now, look at the trail on JT's map, and compare it to the trail on the stone maps. Only differs at the very end?

Look at the Salt River on JT's map, and the same on the stone maps...look similar?

Look at the three "permanent" water holes on JT's map...they are denoted as X's...do you see them in the same place on the stone maps?

At the very least, do you see why I have a reason to think they are related?

EDIT: Not a very good listener or speller this am.

Got my coffee goin.

 

[somehiker]

OK, I can see it.

Now, to humor me, compare JT's mountains to the ones on the stone maps. Which ones look more like the ones on the stone maps?

Now, look at the trail on JT's map, and compare it to the trail on the stone maps. Only differs at the very end?

Look at the Salt River on JT's map, and the same on the stone maps...look similar?

Look at the three "permanent" water holes on JT's map...they are denoted as X's...do you see them in the same place on the stone maps?

At the very least, do you see why I have a reason to think they are related?

I do see where you see the similarities Jim. I too have spent some time, and made a few comments in the past about the map and it's possible connections.
Have you considered the possibility the JT, being Waltz's primary caregiver during the final months of his life, had been given a similar map by JW, which she later, having given up the search herself, copied and sold. OR.....may have been given the map by someone else after her search for his mine was publicized. Regardless, it does give rise to a number of questions regarding it's similarity in some of the ways you mention.
So don't quit or shut up. Go ahead and keep on posting what you think, though I do have some other stuff I need to do today, so might be a bit slow to respond. Good thing it's a 3 day weekend up here.

For someone making a map, using simple zig-zag lines is pretty common for anyone trying to portray uneven ground...hills, mountains or even waves on water.... and who are not trying to create an artistic masterpiece. I've done so myself, long before I ever saw any of this stuff. I'd even bet my mom put some of my drawings of boats on wavy water up on the ice box way back when I was a kid.