New site?...with different clue versions?

[PotBelly Jim]

That there has never been a Tumlinson/Leasman photo of the H/P stone shared, along with some questions I asked of those who I had telephone and e-mail exchanges with, I now suspect that it was Clarence Mitchell who either found the H/P stone, or purchased it from someone else who did. It was admitted that Travis and Clarence were partners in the search early on, and I think it may have been that stone which somehow caused the two to meet . That when Travis later found the other stones and refused to share or even show them to Mitchell, that partnership ended with Clarence basically left in limbo until he was able to buy the Trail Stones and Heart from Alleen .
I can flesh this out a little more if anyone is interested.

Ditto Dave, please do. While I've not done much serious research on stone or paper maps, I've always been interested in the different materials used and what that might mean.

 

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[somehiker]

what would be the purpose of the jesuits carving them?...a parchment or skin is better...easier and lighter...why would they carve such a cryptic and elaborate map that nobody could decipher except the maker of the map?...the jesuits deny carving the stones...none of these cryptic maps have ever been deciphered ..peralta stones...beale codes...if these were legit don't you think they would have been decoded by now?

For a long time I believed the Jesuits made the stones as a map where they cached what they didn't want confiscated when they were expelled. That they chose stone as the media because of it's far greater durability, compared to paper/parchment/hide etc.
Put somewhere out of the weather....buried in well drained sand and gravel for example....it can last virtually forever. They didn't need lighter. After all, metates of the same size and weight, and often of the same type of stone were carried from camp to camp by the women of nomadic tribes....on their backs. Them Jesuits had horses, mules and donkeys for that job.
Encrypted ?
Aside from the Latin Heart and the CP drawing, very little, if at all. In fact maybe that's the problem.
A warning, followed by three lines of simple instructions, and a direction to go, once you get to a certain place.
I think any half-educated Jesuit would have been able to understand what is shown.....including the Latin and numbers on the CP and LH.

But now I'm not so sure all these artifacts were made to use for locating their own goodies, but rather for someone else's, and were created with the aid of instructions from another source entirely. But they never got another chance after Keller's failed attempt.

 

[somehiker]

carry on

Getting too late.
Tomorrow evening maybe.

 

[i am the horse]

But now I'm not so sure all these artifacts were made to use for locating their own goodies, but rather for someone else's, and were created with the aid of instructions from another source entirely.

bravo

 

[Carl995]

\
As for cactus carvings, I don't have any faith in them at all when looking for anything more than 75-100 years old, but I've already given my reasons for that conclusion in a topic about that subject.
----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------
Saguaro cactus growth rate:
By 95-100 years in age, a saguaro cactus can reach a height of 15-16 feet, and could start to produce its first arm. By 200 years old, the saguaro cactus has reached its full height, reaching upwards of 45 feet tall.

most are dead & gone now (that I photographed the carvings in the late 60's)

I do believe in the scabbed up saguaro carvings.....


Try to fake these hearts!

 

[Al D]

For a long time I believed the Jesuits made the stones as a map where they cached what they didn't want confiscated when they were expelled. That they chose stone as the media because of it's far greater durability, compared to paper/parchment/hide etc.
Put somewhere out of the weather....buried in well drained sand and gravel for example....it can last virtually forever. They didn't need lighter. After all, metates of the same size and weight, and often of the same type of stone were carried from camp to camp by the women of nomadic tribes....on their backs. Them Jesuits had horses, mules and donkeys for that job.
Encrypted ?
Aside from the Latin Heart and the CP drawing, very little, if at all. In fact maybe that's the problem.
A warning, followed by three lines of simple instructions, and a direction to go, once you get to a certain place.
I think any half-educated Jesuit would have been able to understand what is shown.....including the Latin and numbers on the CP and LH.

But now I'm not so sure all these artifacts were made to use for locating their own goodies, but rather for someone else's, and were created with the aid of instructions from another source entirely. But they never got another chance after Keller's failed attempt.

Very interesting theory, but for one small detail, the meaning of the 1847.
If the Jesuits made the stone maps, it would had to have been before 1767, so.... if they incorporated the 1847 as some type of code, then why make it look like a date? Especially when anyone who would have seen the stones prior to 1847 would have been able to deduce immediately that it meant something other than a date. Not really the best way to encrypt information.
the 1847 is or is not a date, but whichever way you go on this issue, it creates a significant decipherment challenge.

 

[Mc4500]

Very interesting theory, but for one small detail, the meaning of the 1847.
If the Jesuits made the stone maps, it would have to have been before 1767, so.... if they incorporated the 1847 as some type of code, then why make it look like a date? Especially when anyone who would have seen the stones prior to 1847 would have been able to deduce immediately that it meant something other than a date. Not really the best way to encrypt information.
the 1847 is or is not a date, but whichever way you go on this issue, it creates a significant decipherment challenge.

Could it be elevation? If so, how far back could people accurately measure elevation?

 

[Al D]

Could it be elevation? If so, how far back could people accurately measure elevation?

Elevation was one of the earliest measurement skills and it could be made quite accurately, the question associated with yours is, what units? Feet or Varas?

 

[Al D]

\
As for cactus carvings, I don't have any faith in them at all when looking for anything more than 75-100 years old, but I've already given my reasons for that conclusion in a topic about that subject.
----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------
Saguaro cactus growth rate:
By 95-100 years in age, a saguaro cactus can reach a height of 15-16 feet, and could start to produce its first arm. By 200 years old, the saguaro cactus has reached its full height, reaching upwards of 45 feet tall.

most are dead & gone now (that I photographed the carvings in the late 60's)

I do believe in the scabbed up saguaro carvings.....


Try to fake these hearts!

View attachment 1739053

View attachment 1739054

Are you willing to share the location of where these cactus were?........buddy

 

[wrmickel1]

Mick,

Now let me come from the other side of this:

How do you know WHAT Janie Tumlinson did or didn't say? Janie NEVER said her dad did not CARVE the Stone Maps. She only said that her dad was never in any way part of any hoax. I KNOW what she said, because she said it to me!

While its true that Travis did come to the Superstitions many times. You (and many other people) ASS-U-ME it was to try and solve the Stone Maps. What if his home was a Stone Artifact Factory? What if all those trips into the Superstitions were to plant fake artifacts (Stone Crosses, Latin Heart), so that they could be found and increase the value of his stone maps?

Mike

Mike

Yes she did say her dad DID NOT MAKE THE MAPS, to Me.

Not true if you met Janie you can tell she was tomboy all the way, She also said she went on trips with her dad. That’s how I know Hewitt Canyon was his main search Area. He should have chosen the place you told me you think the Dutchman’s Mine is.

babymick1 as for staging the area not true just more yarn

 

[arcana-exploration]

Oroblanco Thanks for that those comments. We are not sure what all we have, at this point, but Iknow there is a lot of stuff up there. But do not crown anything yet, because we are still trying to put things together. So no we do not want any attaboys. We have not shown anything yet. I think our book will do well, it will be different, but should be interesting, hopefully, my grandchildren will like it. A couple of years ago when I was sure I was on to something, it was late at night, and I can remember, saying to out loud to my self, Jacob Waltz you old mother fxxxxx you really did have a mine, I will be goddam, goooooodammmm. what do you know? Wow. It was all real, no it is all real. At that time I thought how that would validate, his legacy, and the ones who have looked for it over the years and were told by everyone that were losers waisting there time looking for something that never existed. Hopefully, we have it and all those before that believed in the legend were right and it was real and they had a six sense, to know it was real, but they just ran out of time.

 

[Al D]

Could it be elevation? If so, how far back could people accurately measure elevation?

Every significant landmark has an elevation greater 1847, regardless of the units selected

 

[somehiker]

Very interesting theory, but for one small detail, the meaning of the 1847.
If the Jesuits made the stone maps, it would had to have been before 1767, so.... if they incorporated the 1847 as some type of code, then why make it look like a date? Especially when anyone who would have seen the stones prior to 1847 would have been able to deduce immediately that it meant something other than a date. Not really the best way to encrypt information.
the 1847 is or is not a date, but whichever way you go on this issue, it creates a significant decipherment challenge.

A challenge perhaps, but not to someone with religious devotion as strong as that of a Jesuit . The "1847" appears in two places on the stones. At the base of the priest, on the bottom tier of the stepped formation that makes up the lower part of his body, and within the cavity where the red heart stone and the black latin heart could be placed. Numbers play a part in Christian Theology, and given the religious nature of the stone maps, stone crosses, the latin heart and especially the Jesuit book of psalms in which the CP was discovered , the "1847's", while code-like to most of us today, may have been nothing more than a kind of "shorthand" to a Jesuit or Jesuit in training..... or even someone from another Catholic Order .

https://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/introduction.html

Ill add a little more to this and a slightly different, but related theory which I have as well when I return home tonight.
If you have it on file, take a look at the early photos of the Twin Buttes Scrapings......Horse/heart/seven sequence.

 

[wrmickel1]

do you know of a sandstone deposit in the superstitions?

Yah,

 

[azdave35]

Yah,

where mick...i'll send someone to check it out

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Very interesting theory, but for one small detail, the meaning of the 1847.
If the Jesuits made the stone maps, it would had to have been before 1767, so.... if they incorporated the 1847 as some type of code, then why make it look like a date? Especially when anyone who would have seen the stones prior to 1847 would have been able to deduce immediately that it meant something other than a date. Not really the best way to encrypt information.
the 1847 is or is not a date, but whichever way you go on this issue, it creates a significant decipherment challenge.

Hi Alan,

Hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but the 1847 markings are kinda obviously a reference to Barry Storm's version of the Peraltas. (This version appears to be wholly made up from a kernel of truth...at least it's not historically accurate). The 1847 markings, the scratching of Miguel and Pedro into the H/P map, seem to be a tribute to ol' Barry. Or, designed by a scam artist to elicit the attention of his target audience: Dutch Hunters.

I happen to also wholeheartedly agree with DAI, that the ALL CAPS lettering on the stones was not how anyone wrote back then. That style came into being when technical documents such as blueprints and mechanical drawings were being taught in schools, back when you had to actually draw them on a drafting table Anybody that has been graded in high school or college on their lettering in such documents will recognize the style. In fact, among people my age, I can tell who has had mechanical drawing, drafting, or such classes, just by looking at their handwriting. We all write in all caps, specifically the WAY we were taught to make them, and the way the "8" is written in 1847 is a dead give-away...only draftsmen and the like are trained to write an "8" with two circles one over the other. How people are being trained to write today, I have no idea. But the Spanish never wrote an eight that way, (EDIT: Same thing with the 1, the 4, and the 7) and they didn't write in all caps. At best, they are a modern interpretation of old treasure symbology, which is entirely possible.

Back to the dutch hunters and the stones: Bob Garman gives a story of how the Tumlinsons (Bob and Travis) viewed the stones...or more accurately, how Bob T. viewed the stones. To paraphrase the story, Miguel Pedro Peralta left Santa Fe just ahead of an American military column, taking a road less traveled...he had his own fortune and the Church's fortune with him...apparently the road less traveled was the Gila trail...my guess...anyway, this happens during the Mexican American War (1847). Upon nearing Sonora, Don Peralta buries the two treasures around Queen Creek, just in case he's intercepted by the Americans as he gets closer to the border. (EDIT: Which didn't exist yet)

Not saying any of this is true, but Bob Garmin had a habit of writing down the stories he was told, even if they contradicted each other...which to me kind of gives credence to his work...he didn't edit the stories so they would all make sense together.

Anyway, there's two, probably unpopular explanations for the 1847 markings on the stones.

 

[azdave35]

Hi Alan,

Hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but the 1847 markings are kinda obviously a reference to Barry Storm's version of the Peraltas. (This version appears to be wholly made up from a kernel of truth...at least it's not historically accurate). The 1847 markings, the scratching of Miguel and Pedro into the H/P map, seem to be a tribute to ol' Barry. Or, designed by a scam artist to elicit the attention of his target audience: Dutch Hunters.

I happen to also wholeheartedly agree with DAI, that the ALL CAPS lettering on the stones was not how anyone wrote back then. That style came into being when technical documents such as blueprints and mechanical drawings were being taught in schools, back when you had to actually draw them on a drafting table Anybody that has been graded in high school or college on their lettering in such documents will recognize the style. In fact, among people my age, I can tell who has had mechanical drawing, drafting, or such classes, just by looking at their handwriting. We all write in all caps, specifically the WAY we were taught to make them, and the way the "8" is written in 1847 is a dead give-away...only draftsmen and the like are trained to write an "8" with two circles one over the other. How people are being trained to write today, I have no idea. But the Spanish never wrote an eight that way, (EDIT: Same thing with the 1, the 4, and the 7) and they didn't write in all caps. At best, they are a modern interpretation of old treasure symbology, which is entirely possible.

Back to the dutch hunters and the stones: Bob Garman gives a story of how the Tumlinsons (Bob and Travis) viewed the stones...or more accurately, how Bob T. viewed the stones. To paraphrase the story, Miguel Pedro Peralta left Santa Fe just ahead of an American military column, taking a road less traveled...he had his own fortune and the Church's fortune with him...apparently the road less traveled was the Gila trail...my guess...anyway, this happens during the Mexican American War (1847). Upon nearing Sonora, Don Peralta buries the two treasures around Queen Creek, just in case he's intercepted by the Americans as he gets closer to the border. (EDIT: Which didn't exist yet)

Not saying any of this is true, but Bob Garmin had a habit of writing down the stories he was told, even if they contradicted each other...which to me kind of gives credence to his work...he didn't edit the stories so they would all make sense together.

Anyway, there's two, probably unpopular explanations for the 1847 markings on the stones.

there are many red flags that pop up on those silly stones....as alan pointed out..the 1847....as jim pointed out ..the big capitol letters...and many others but just those 2 alone seal the deal...i have a friend who is an engraver...he is also a Spaniard (his ancestors were)....he specializes in engraving watches but he does knives and rocks for me sometimes..i asked him years ago what he thought about the stones from an engravers point of view...he laughed and said no way a spaniard engraved those stones...first thing he picked apart were the big squared off capitol letters ...i agree with him and jim.. neither a spaniard or jesuit or a mexican engraved those stones...they were done by a white man

 

[Al D]

Hi Alan,

Hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but the 1847 markings are kinda obviously a reference to Barry Storm's version of the Peraltas. (This version appears to be wholly made up from a kernel of truth...at least it's not historically accurate). The 1847 markings, the scratching of Miguel and Pedro into the H/P map, seem to be a tribute to ol' Barry. Or, designed by a scam artist to elicit the attention of his target audience: Dutch Hunters.

I happen to also wholeheartedly agree with DAI, that the ALL CAPS lettering on the stones was not how anyone wrote back then. That style came into being when technical documents such as blueprints and mechanical drawings were being taught in schools, back when you had to actually draw them on a drafting table Anybody that has been graded in high school or college on their lettering in such documents will recognize the style. In fact, among people my age, I can tell who has had mechanical drawing, drafting, or such classes, just by looking at their handwriting. We all write in all caps, specifically the WAY we were taught to make them, and the way the "8" is written in 1847 is a dead give-away...only draftsmen and the like are trained to write an "8" with two circles one over the other. How people are being trained to write today, I have no idea. But the Spanish never wrote an eight that way, (EDIT: Same thing with the 1, the 4, and the 7) and they didn't write in all caps. At best, they are a modern interpretation of old treasure symbology, which is entirely possible.

Back to the dutch hunters and the stones: Bob Garman gives a story of how the Tumlinsons (Bob and Travis) viewed the stones...or more accurately, how Bob T. viewed the stones. To paraphrase the story, Miguel Pedro Peralta left Santa Fe just ahead of an American military column, taking a road less traveled...he had his own fortune and the Church's fortune with him...apparently the road less traveled was the Gila trail...my guess...anyway, this happens during the Mexican American War (1847). Upon nearing Sonora, Don Peralta buries the two treasures around Queen Creek, just in case he's intercepted by the Americans as he gets closer to the border. (EDIT: Which didn't exist yet)

Not saying any of this is true, but Bob Garmin had a habit of writing down the stories he was told, even if they contradicted each other...which to me kind of gives credence to his work...he didn't edit the stories so they would all make sense together.

Anyway, there's two, probably unpopular explanations for the 1847 markings on the stones.

Thank you Jim, this is info that I did not have in my notes
just one observation which goes against your premise, no offense intended but carving in stone can hardly be compared to writing and grammar, for instance, making the number eight with two circles is much easier than making an infinity symbol in stone plus there is lees chance of a slip or mistake which would cause one to start as a mistake cannot be erased. This of coarse is predicated on the notion that the stones actually lead to some location and were created for a purpose other than a hoax.

 

[Al D]

I agree with him and jim.. neither a spaniard or jesuit or a mexican engraved those stones...they were done by a white man

You are right Dave, I am in total agreement..a white man carved the stones.

 

[Al D]

A challenge perhaps, but not to someone with religious devotion as strong as that of a Jesuit . The "1847" appears in two places on the stones. At the base of the priest, on the bottom tier of the stepped formation that makes up the lower part of his body, and within the cavity where the red heart stone and the black latin heart could be placed. Numbers play a part in Christian Theology, and given the religious nature of the stone maps, stone crosses, the latin heart and especially the Jesuit book of psalms in which the CP was discovered , the "1847's", while code-like to most of us today, may have been nothing more than a kind of "shorthand" to a Jesuit or Jesuit in training..... or even someone from another Catholic Order .

https://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/introduction.html

Ill add a little more to this and a slightly different, but related theory which I have as well when I return home tonight.
If you have it on file, take a look at the early photos of the Twin Buttes Scrapings......Horse/heart/seven sequence.

I am very interested in your info Wayne, looking forward to reading more