Need Help ID of old Rifle

[Bigcypresshunter]

It doesn't seem to have any identification or serial numbers. I was told its a ladies rifle. Its a cool lightweight cap and ball type muzzleloader. I believe it to be authentic. It might be .22 caliber or .25. Check out the hammer and nipple on the bottom. The only marking I see is hand stamped "A.STORY VT."


Any idea what this is? Help needed from the antique gun people. Thanks

pictures loading very slow and having problems they are so big




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[Bigcypresshunter]

I discovered something interesting. Here are photos of the Kendall and Hilliard rifle trigger mechanisms as compared to mine. The Asa Story is a little different but very similar, making it less likely to be a replica. http://www.littlegun.info/arme americaine/artisan h/a hillliard david h gb.htm

 

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[huntsman53]

huntsman53 I think it rusted in the shed. He said it wasn't rusted when he first put it in storage years ago. I think its authentic too but I wish I could just see one photo of the Asa Story mark to compare or a rifle with the octagon to round barrel.. Thanks

Ask if the rifle's barrel was brownish colored or blackish/blue when placed in the shed. If the former, then the barrel was Rust Blued as this was the main form of bluing such rifles back then. Many Gun Makers/Builders of high quality Muzzleloaders and especially those used for competitions (shooting matches) and reenactments, generally Rust Blue the rifles they produce.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im reading everyone's posts thanks and I will reply when I get a chance. I just got on a big screen and noticed the Hilliard in this link has my octagon to round barrel! This is the first time I saw a matching barrel. Im out of data so my computer is very slow.
Nouvelle page 0

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Ask if the rifle's barrel was brownish colored or blackish/blue when placed in the shed. If the former, then the barrel was Rust Blued as this was the main form of bluing such rifles back then. Many Gun Makers/Builders of high quality Muzzleloaders and especially those used for competitions (shooting matches) and reenactments, generally Rust Blue the rifles they produce.

I just watched 3 videos on rust bluing/browning rifles. There are no traces whatsoever of browning or bluing on the barrel. The peep site may have been browned or blued at one time but the barrel is bare metal with rust from neglect of being stored in a backyard shed in a humid climate.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Caliber is the diameter of the bore at the lands, measured in hundredths of an inch. Circles show bore sizes of common muzzleloader calibers.

View attachment 1736043

Im off the chart. Its smaller than .32 but larger than .28 if my caliper is correct.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I just watched 3 videos on rust bluing/browning rifles. There are no traces whatsoever of browning or bluing on the barrel. The peep site may have been browned or blued at one time but the barrel is bare metal with rust from neglect of being stored in a backyard shed in a humid climate.

So with that info, the question is what to do with it.... A lot of people would just strip it down with a wire brush to get the rust off but in my opinion that would rob it of its honest aging and to a collector that would take away most of the value. But, you definitely don't want the rust on it to stay active and keep damaging the metal. I think your best bet is to wipe off any powdery rust with a dry wash cloth, and then wipe it down with soft white rags and gun oil until you get to a point where there's no rust coming off anymore. That way you're not physically altering the gun and it still shows its age but it's protected from further corrosion. The thing about an honest aged patina is you can always take more of it off, but you can't put it back on. If it's certified original and you decide to sell it one day you'll get a lot more for it in a cleaned but unrestored condition.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I don't know if you've come across these sites, the first one has good pics of a known Asa Story rifle

A Story Underhammer: A Story Underhammer Rifle

This one is the Vermont Firearms Museum, they have an underhamer rifle on the slideshow here that has some pretty close similarities to yours

https://shelburnemuseum.org/collection/vermont-firearms/

Maybe contact them and see if they can help you authenticate it

I commented on the blog in the first link a couple days ago.

Thats a pretty gun in the slideshow. Being in Vermont, they might be able to help. I can send them an email. thanks.

 

[Retired Sarge]

So with that info, the question is what to do with it.... A lot of people would just strip it down with a wire brush to get the rust off but in my opinion that would rob it of its honest aging and to a collector that would take away most of the value. But, you definitely don't want the rust on it to stay active and keep damaging the metal. I think your best bet is to wipe off any powdery rust with a dry wash cloth, and then wipe it down with soft white rags and gun oil until you get to a point where there's no rust coming off anymore. That way you're not physically altering the gun and it still shows its age but it's protected from further corrosion. The thing about an honest aged patina is you can always take more of it off, but you can't put it back on. If it's certified original and you decide to sell it one day you'll get a lot more for it in a cleaned but unrestored condition.

Good points........

Clean only as needed to stop the active rust, oil/grease, preserve and maintain. A good grease to use after cleaning is RIG or Rust Inhibiting Grease. Once any active rust is dealt with, it will in time turn brown in color, matching the existing/surrounding patina.

https://www.google.com/search?ie=UT...=android-browser&q=RIG+rust+Inhibiting+grease

 

[releventchair]

Im off the chart. Its smaller than .32 but larger than .28 if my caliper is correct.

.30 is not unheard of.Dixie Round Ball Mold .30 cal - .62 cal

And just to mess with my poor math ....308 is similar to .30.
Which led to a suggestion of using 0 buckshot. (Size zero buckshot individual balls) to make a squib load for a .308.
Which leads to...#1 buckshot...
Buckshot
US Size UK Size Nominal diameter
#00 Buck .330" (8.38 mm)
#0 Buck .32" (8.1 mm)
#1 Buck .30" (7.6 mm)
Special SG .298" (7.57 mm)

Still fun...

(No , I'm not suggesting making .308 squib loads..)

 

[NHBandit]

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/51526673_asa-story-underhammer-rifle-38-cal

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/51526673_asa-story-underhammer-rifle-38-cal

I just ordered the 1966 magazine from eBay. Its hard to believe that we cant find an A. STORY VT. or any ASA STORY marking anywhere online. Im hoping the magazine shows it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I really think the best rust inhibitor that can be used on antiques is boiled linseed oil. I think there is benefit trying to stay with what the original owner would have used in 1830-50. I prefer shellac over polyurethane and I prefer linseed oil over modern synthetics. Besides Linseed Oil is great for wood. I coated old Stanley planes with Rosewood handles in linseed oil before placing them in even bad humid storage conditions and they were great several years later. I never had a complaint from buyers. And the linseed oil is beneficial to the wood besides making it look pretty.

 

[Retired Sarge]

I just ordered the 1966 magazine from eBay. Its hard to believe that we cant find an A. STORY VT. or any ASA STORY marking anywhere online. Im hoping the magazine shows it.

These two rifles of yours are driving me insane. I want to clean them, inspect them, figure out the caliber, and powder load. Then take them out and let them belch smoke and fire again. Then clean them again and put them away. An old gun that is original, can be fired, is worth more than a wall hanger.

I actually took a few guns (Around 10) out yesterday, and slung lead at targets. Just to calm my cravings down some.......LOL.

I've been enjoying these gun posts and enjoyed figuring out the ID of these old works of art. IF notice I said IF you ever tire of them let me know, and we'll see if we can come to an agreement that both of us can live with.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have been in this business many years way before the internet days. It helps me pay the bills. It helps me pay for all the storage lol. If I ever sell it, it will be for top dollar or at an auction. If it ever goes to one of the big auction houses, sure I can let you know. . But rest assured whatever I sell, I will be completely honest and my antiques are authentic. Im not interested in replicas. But at this point, it hasnt been solved and its value has not been determined. I still have some doubts. I never sell until its true value has been determined. I have made that mistake in the past and still have some big regrets. My life is not easy. I could be retired if not for the mistakes I have made in the past. I would like to see an example of an A. STORY marking. Im headed back to work in the swamp soon for the next 8 months and the A Story will go into storage. It has that missing part on the sight that I will need to try and find. I will let you know if I decide to sell next year. Im gonna try and hunt with the German musket in Turkey season. I may be able to use it as a shotgun. Thanks for the interest.

ADDED: Actually if I decide to sell it, I could let you know first (before it goes to auction) That sounds fair. But I think that wont be till next year.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im going to try and purchase another rifle tommorrow from the same place so stay tuned. In the mean time I found the Underhammer Society. Im on my celphone but it looks as if there may be lots of good information here, lots of replicas and homemade underhammers. Buying and selling is definitely a tough business if you dont know antiquities. You can really get taken to the cleaners.


I found my barrel on 3 different underhammer pistols. The Underhammer Society

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I really think the best rust inhibitor that can be used on antiques is boiled linseed oil. I think there is benefit trying to stay with what the original owner would have used in 1830-50. I prefer shellac over polyurethane and I prefer linseed oil over modern synthetics. Besides Linseed Oil is great for wood. I coated old Stanley planes with Rosewood handles in linseed oil before placing them in even bad humid storage conditions and they were great several years later. I never had a complaint from buyers. And the linseed oil is beneficial to the wood besides making it look pretty.

View attachment 1736565View attachment 1736566

I don't know that I would want to use linseed oil on the old metal, over time it can attract dust which traps humidity, and it can become sticky and gummy which makes it a pain to remove. Also for neutralizing the rust I would definitely use gun oil which has detergents in it that will help with the cleaning. I personally would wipe it down with sewing machine oil before putting it in storage, and it would be a good idea to get a hard shell case and a bag of desiccant just to be safe

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont have air conditioned storage so I use the linseed oil to stop rust in a very humid climate. I would otherwise have to use heavy oil and I damaged an old hunting rifle in storage as the oil seeped into the wood. I guess i will use it very sparingly on metal and never on movable parts. Thanks

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

From the underhammer site. This may explain why the Asa Story has no ramrod. Its a target rifle.
http://underhammers.blogspot.com/2015/08/blisss-bliss.html?m=1

"It must be explained that the Bliss Rifle was not fitted with a loading rod as it is intended for target work only. So, the extra bulk of the ramrod is not necessary, nor desired, as he will be using a range rod for loading."

But I cant figure why the German musket has no ramrod??

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here is my barrel on a rifle just a tad shorter. It appears to have the same wedge sight as mine. The Underhammer Society: Allen Underhammer "Pocket Rifle" Notice white metal. No blueing no browning.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

They list a few good books that I may try to obtain. They say a lot of underhammers were made by a lot of different makers. This paragraph is concerning.

"During the muzzleloading revival of the 1950s, 60s and 70’s George Numrich of Numrich Arms/Gun Parts Corporation fame, determined that there would be a sizable market for an inexpensive and simple muzzleloading rifle. So they made one."

(They made an underhammer)

"It was a simple, rugged, and accurate underhammer design that looked promising."