Need Help ID of old Rifle

[Bigcypresshunter]

It doesn't seem to have any identification or serial numbers. I was told its a ladies rifle. Its a cool lightweight cap and ball type muzzleloader. I believe it to be authentic. It might be .22 caliber or .25. Check out the hammer and nipple on the bottom. The only marking I see is hand stamped "A.STORY VT."


Any idea what this is? Help needed from the antique gun people. Thanks

pictures loading very slow and having problems they are so big




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[Retired Sarge]

Safety Warning

Bigcypresshunter and Huston recently posted rifle ID posts. Just a warning to everyone out there wanting to shoot these Ole Gals.

Today I was doing my second post Hurricsne Michael gun maintenance. The first one was a few days after the storm, it was a quick oiling and storing them in a dry closet where they have been since. Today was a total disassembly, inspection, cleaning, oiling and reassembly.

This is what I found on my 1890 Danzig Gew 1888, this is on the side rail of the receiver/chamber area of it. Had this not been found it would have lead to a catastrophic failure leading to serious injuries. This was last fire in 2018, my one son cleaned it as he was the one who took it to the range.

I always do inspections the night before going to the range, just for reasons like this.

Please if you chose fo shoot these rifles please have them throughly inspected before hand by a qualified and competent gunsmith.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

How did that happen ffluries?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Octagonal to round barrels aren't uncommon on early sporting guns, I've seen quite a few. If you want to eliminate the possibility of it being a modern replica take out a couple of the screws and compare them to modern machine made screws. You'll know the difference between a screw from the early 1800's and one from the mid 20th century by just looking at them. Personally I think you have the real deal as I've never seen a repro underhammer gun and I can't imagine there being a big enough market for them that any of the likely companies would make one.

Me personally, I would take good clear pics and send them to the NRA Museum, and the Cody Firearms Museum, and see what they have to say.

Also I found a listing for a similar Story rifle in .33 cal, have you checked the bore with a caliper? Being an oddball caliber is a good indication of an original piece as well

Ok I found my caliper. Inside bore measures 5/16" which converts to .3125 in decimals. So I guess its a .32 caliber. Does that mean anything?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

One screw looks kinda funky but its a simple design with very few screws in it. The barrel is removed with 3 screws. The screws in the german silver are tiny and i hate to try and remove those. I may try the NRA and Cody museums. The NRA museum has no guns made by Asa Story but they mention his name as a famous early gunsmith. No hits on Asa Story search on the Cody Firearms site. Asa Story made rifles before replacable parts when each gun was hand made, one of a kind. If authentic, it may actually be the only one of its kind in the world and I may never find a match to it.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Ok I found my caliper. Inside bore measures 5/16" which converts to .3125 in decimals. So I guess its a .32 caliber. Does that mean anything?

View attachment 1734883View attachment 1734884

I would be more inclined to think .31 cal, I can't see anyone wanting to ram an oversized ball down a long barrel, and a patch would fill the difference.

I am still inclined to think it's the real deal, (and I really hope it is, that would be really cool) those screws have a handmade look to them rather than machine made that I would expect on a 20th century repro.


Another place you might want to send pics to is the Rock Island Auction, they have some of the most knowledgeable experts on antique firearms making their inspections and appraisals

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I would be more inclined to think .31 cal, I can't see anyone wanting to ram an oversized ball down a long barrel, and a patch would fill the difference.

I am still inclined to think it's the real deal, (and I really hope it is, that would be really cool) those screws have a handmade look to them rather than machine made that I would expect on a 20th century repro.


Another place you might want to send pics to is the Rock Island Auction, they have some of the most knowledgeable experts on antique firearms making their inspections and appraisals

I forgot about the patch. I might have to slug the barrel as ffluries described to get a more accurate reading. Or I need to find my dial caliper which is more accurate.

Oh yea I think its authentic too. We made the deal over the phone and my eyes popped out the second I saw these 2 guns. I gave him the money and tossed them in the bag without a second look. And I posted here the second I got home lol. The quality and craftsmanship is better than any replica that I ever saw. You could just tell.



A patch is about 1/32 or .03125. Im terrible at math so check my figures, a .3125 bore minus .03125 patch equals .2813 caliber bullet but it looks as if I need a more accurate reading. Does anybody know the common calibers under .32 during the 1820-1830 time period? I might not have tightened up on the patch enough. Maybe a .30 caliber?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Might need to slug the barrel. Taking a soft piece of lead (Fishing weignt) and running it down the barrel, it will conform to the barrel diameter. This way you can take your calipers and get a somewhat true ideal of the caliber of the rifle.

Here's a tutorial on slugging a M91/30 Mosin Nagant, it explains it better than I can, the same process will work for you.

Mosin Nagant Rifle Bore Slugging Tutorial

It looks like I have an odd size caliber. Im going to try slugging the barrel. But i need to tie some wire fishing leader to the sinker so I can pull it out. The only other way would be to shoot it out or a ball puller. Im gonna tie a leader to the lead sinker or maybe a crimp on type.

 

[Retired Sarge]

It looks like I have an odd size caliber. Im going to try slugging the barrel. But i need to tie some wire fishing leader to the sinker so I can pull it out. The only other way would be to shoot it out or a ball puller. Im gonna tie a leader to the lead sinker or maybe a crimp on type.

Short sections of wooden dowels and then push/shove/hammer the lead from the muzzle to the bore. The link I posted previously shows and explains it better than I can.

Here's the link again....

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

 

[huntsman53]

I cant quite see how it attaches but it makes sense its a sight post adjustment thing. That explains the scratches in the wood as it slipped off the bottom mount. Look like a threaded post with a thumbscrew.

View attachment 1728042

Im seeing the same prices for Asa Story but Im not finding this model. I think the possibility exists that its been stamped A. STORY VT. after the factory but I still dont see it as repro. Its still unsolved. Or it might be a very rare Asa Story. The hand punched lettering does have serifs.

View attachment 1728251

You will likely have to pour penetrating oil down the barrel with the Nipple down so that it will work on the rust from the inside and leave it that way for a day or so, then apply penetrating oil to the Nipple on the outside of the barrel.

To keep from making additional posts, I will include this: I truly believe that you have a rare Asa Story Percussion Muzzleloading Rifle. I would recommend taking the rifle to a well known Maker/Builder of Muzzleloading Arms and have them restore the rifle to it's original glory. From the appearance of the barrel, it appears that the barrel was Rust Blued and not Blued in the literal sense of Gun Bluing (i.e. Gun Metal Blue), since many Makers and Builders preferred the look of Rust Bluing which usually outlasted traditional Bluing.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Short sections of wooden dowels and then push/shove/hammer the lead from the muzzle to the bore. The link I posted previously shows and explains it better than I can.

Here's the link again....

Mosin Nagant Rifle Bore Slugging Tutorial

Yes sir, I read that but unless I am missing something, how do I get the lead out of the muzzle after I hammer it down in? Thats why I proposed tying a fishing leader on to the lead sinker and try to pull it back out the muzzle with the wire. Im not sure at this point its safe to attempt to shoot it out when I dont know the caliber yet. Its somewhere between .28 and .31 caliber which seems odd to me.

I have the old style muzzloader barrel. No breech plug. Im gonna go to walmart next chance I get and buy the sinkers with a hole and some strong fishing leader and try to ram the lead and wire down together. But if it comes apart, im screwed. Maybe a small puller will grab it if they make one

 

[Retired Sarge]

IMPORTANT READ

Yes sir, I read that but unless I am missing something, how do I get the lead out of the muzzle after I hammer it down in? Thats why I proposed tying a fishing leader on to the lead sinker and try to pull it back out the muzzle with the wire. Im not sure at this point its safe to attempt to shoot it out when I dont know the caliber yet. Its somewhere between .28 and .31 caliber which seems odd to me.

I have the old style muzzloader barrel. No breech plug. Im gonna go to walmart next chance I get and buy the sinkers with a hole and some strong fishing leader and try to ram the lead and wire down together. But if it comes apart, im screwed. Maybe a small puller will grab it if they make one

Duh, brain fart, I'm thinking breech loading rifles. Take a mold of the muzzle end of the barrel, leave a gob sticking out so once it dries you can pull it out. I'll find the instruction on what to use and post back.

Sorry for being brain dead.

Basically you take a silicone sealant spray the inside of the barrel with a oil or a release agent. Squirt the silicone in to the muzzle end about an inch or two, leaving yourself a tail to put it out. Let it cure, pull it out and make your measurements. Any residue remaining can be cleaned out with a brush.

IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTE:

Measure the length of the barrel, then insert a rod or wooden dowel into the barrel. If the length of the barrel depth is with 1/2 of the nipple or flash hole it's probably not loaded. Another way is to blow compressed air through the nipples hole, air flows easy most likely cleared, doesn't flow easy most likely loaded.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Yes sir, I read that but unless I am missing something, how do I get the lead out of the muzzle after I hammer it down in? Thats why I proposed tying a fishing leader on to the lead sinker and try to pull it back out the muzzle with the wire. Im not sure at this point its safe to attempt to shoot it out when I dont know the caliber yet. Its somewhere between .28 and .31 caliber which seems odd to me.

I have the old style muzzloader barrel. No breech plug. Im gonna go to walmart next chance I get and buy the sinkers with a hole and some strong fishing leader and try to ram the lead and wire down together. But if it comes apart, im screwed. Maybe a small puller will grab it if they make one

The first thing I would do is plug the hole for the nipple, mask off the outside of the barrel and the muzzle crown and carefully fill the bore with evaporust. I'd let it sit over night and then pour out the liquid carefully so as not to get any on the outside of the barrel, then scrub it out with a bore brush. Run some patches in it and then flush it out really good with 90% rubbing alcohol use a couple more patches to dry it and get any residual gunk out and then lightly gun oil it. After that it should be as clean as it's going to get. You can take a thin rigid piece of wire cut to a point and make a 90 degree bend at the cut end and run that slowly up and down the bore... It should glide smoothly in the bore but will snag and sort of "chatter" just a bit on any areas of deep pitting. It's something you'll probably just have to close your eyes and feel for...

As for sizing it maybe try silicone casting rubber, I'd try plugging the bore a few inches in with a little ball of paper and use masking tape wrapped around the muzzle past the end an inch or so to make a funnel to pour it in and also a way to grip it to pull it out. I'm not sure how well that would work and you may need a release agent to keep the silicone from sticking to the metal so I'd try it on a smooth piece of pipe first before I tried it in the barrel. If it comes out easily and leaves the paper ball you can pop that out with compressed air though the nipple hole.

It seems like it should work but maybe research it a bit first

 

[releventchair]

You are being conservative in patch thickness. 15 thousandths with a few + or_ either way is another option.
A ten thousandths can be damaged in a tight bore. The small caliber you are dealing with probably would no blow /or burn a patch ,but still...

A loading or cleaning rod jag that fits in the bore "closely" can have a well lubed patch started in it. Barely started in it...You don't want to get it stuck.
A qualified smith would be able to remove (in theory) the breech plug and not have to worry about getting something stuck without being able to put pressure on it from the opposite direction.

All that to say , stay undersized at first when cleaning ?feeling the bore.
You may lose a patch ,but they can be fished out with a worm or screw on the end of the rod. (In theory.)
Getting a rod stuck will inspire you to perspire...Ask how I know. (Bang head.)
There are ways to extract a stuck rod , but lets not risk ruin to an old gun!

A muzzle guide is kind of like a funnel to protect your barrels crown.. Should you get the urge to start a patch down your bore.

22 and 25 calibers are not unheard of. And of course a builder of a barrel had options if desired/built tools.
A ten thousandths patch on what sized ball fits a given barrel? If loose , what would a fifteen thousandths do?

Compress a patch enough with a micrometer and get a thinner reading.
Fluff a cotton material for a patch after washing and have a different thickness than when new and starched/sizing affects it.

We havin fun yet?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks everybody. NOLA Ken I have already cleaned out the bore with evaporust and I have run both brush and patches up and down with soap and hot water and it appears empty. And I lightly oiled it. I didn't attempt to remove the nipple but its clear. I only need to determine the caliber.

ffluries, Im the one with a brain fart. I dont need to force a sinker all the way to the bottom! I think I will carefully lower a fishing sinker (the type with a hole inside) with a wire attached and see what happens. Then wrap it with different size patches until it gets tighter.

Compressed air is a good idea if I get in trouble. I successfully pulled a .45 round ball with a ramrod screw attachment a few times back in the day and the fishing sinker has a hole in it already if I have to attempt to pull it...

releventchair Sorry I didnt say but I folded the patch (doubled it)when I measured it at .031 so half of that would be .015 right? But I definitely need to find my dial caliper for a more accurate reading. I cant do it with the caliper Im using. I think its definitely more than .25 caliber but less than .32.

huntsman53 I think it rusted in the shed. He said it wasn't rusted when he first put it in storage years ago. I think its authentic too but I wish I could just see one photo of the Asa Story mark to compare or a rifle with the octagon to round barrel.. Thanks



....or maybe I try the silicone first as long as I can pull it out. Heck yea these old guns are fun!

 

[Oroblanco]

It is probably a 32 caliber, which was popular for squirrel hunting, small game and target shooting. When you are taking measurements keep in mind that it is an old gal, might have a bit of bore erosion and there were literally NO standards when it was made. Actual bore diameter is not exactly 32 in a 32 caliber muzzleloader, often the round ball type bullets were .315 or .312 etc.

 

[releventchair]

Thanks everybody. NOLA Ken I have already cleaned out the bore with evaporust and I have run both brush and patches up and down with soap and hot water and it appears empty. And I lightly oiled it. I didn't attempt to remove the nipple but its clear. I only need to determine the caliber.

ffluries, Im the one with a brain fart. I dont need to force a sinker all the way to the bottom! I think I will carefully lower a fishing sinker (the type with a hole inside) with a wire attached and see what happens. Then wrap it with different size patches until it gets tighter.

Compressed air is a good idea if I get in trouble. I successfully pulled a .45 round ball with a ramrod screw attachment a few times back in the day and the fishing sinker has a hole in it already if I have to attempt to pull it...

releventchair Sorry I didnt say but I folded the patch (doubled it)when I measured it at .031 so half of that would be .015 right? But I definitely need to find my dial caliper for a more accurate reading. I cant do it with the caliper Im using. I think its definitely more than .25 caliber but less than .32.

huntsman53 I think it rusted in the shed. He said it wasn't rusted when he first put it in storage years ago. I think its authentic too but I wish I could just see one photo of the Asa Story mark to compare or a rifle with the octagon to round barrel.. Thanks

View attachment 1736011

....or maybe I try the silicone first as long as I can pull it out. Heck yea these old guns are fun!

Alright. I see what you meant by doubling the patch. = both sides of a patched ball plus ball all together inside bore width.
I've watched folks hammer tightly patched balls down. Not inaccurate , but they built rifles too... I suspect they did not hunt dangerous game as long as it took.
I was content to have a patch seal the bore like a good gasket when the ball was fired. No tear ,no burn through ,good.
With a lubed patch engaging the rifling the bore stayed , well clean enough to swab easy.... And accuracy was decent without having to buy quality linen for patches.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Caliber is the diameter of the bore at the lands, measured in hundredths of an inch. Circles show bore sizes of common muzzleloader calibers.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It is probably a 32 caliber, which was popular for squirrel hunting, small game and target shooting. When you are taking measurements keep in mind that it is an old gal, might have a bit of bore erosion and there were literally NO standards when it was made. Actual bore diameter is not exactly 32 in a 32 caliber muzzleloader, often the round ball type bullets were .315 or .312 etc.

I originally thought .32 but someone reminded me I forgot about the patch.


I measured just a quarter inch down .3125 I.D. on a worn bore minus .03125 patch (doubled over) equals .2813 I.D. but it looks as if I need a dial caliper for a more accurate reading. (I.D. is inside diameter)

If I use a .010 patch that would be .3125 I.D minus .020 equals .2925 I.D Maybe a .30 caliber?

I need to use the lead sinker idea or silicone to be sure. Or I could purchase a .312-.315 round ball and see if it fits?

 

[huntsman53]

You might try a candle that is slightly larger than the bore. Make sure to grease the bore first, then heat one end of the candle with a blow dryer until it is soft enough to be pushed down the bore. You only need to push it in about an inch to insure that you get an accurate reading of the bore itself (i.e. over time and being shot quite a bit, the crown of a muzzleloader will enlarge somewhat and will not give an accurate measurement of the bore). Once the candle cools and hardens, just pull it out and measure the diameter. If you fear that the cooled candle will be too soft when the caliper is screwed down on it, then cool the candle in a freezer for a few minutes. One thing about candle wax is that while it melts and thus likely expands when heated, it really does not contract when cooled below room temperatures.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I don't know if you've come across these sites, the dirst one has good pics of a known Asa Story rifle

A Story Underhammer: A Story Underhammer Rifle

This one is the Vermont Firearms Museum, they have an underhamer rifle on the slideshow here that has some pretty close similarities to yours

https://shelburnemuseum.org/collection/vermont-firearms/

Maybe contact them and see if they can help you authenticate it