Need Help ID of old Rifle

[Bigcypresshunter]

It doesn't seem to have any identification or serial numbers. I was told its a ladies rifle. Its a cool lightweight cap and ball type muzzleloader. I believe it to be authentic. It might be .22 caliber or .25. Check out the hammer and nipple on the bottom. The only marking I see is hand stamped "A.STORY VT."


Any idea what this is? Help needed from the antique gun people. Thanks

pictures loading very slow and having problems they are so big




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[NOLA_Ken]

I wouldn't be too upset by similar and even identical decoration used on muskets by different makers in the same region. After all they would all try to make their guns in whatever fashion was popular in the area at the time to compete. Also they may be buying bits and pieces from the same local supplier instead of making them in house.

One thing we haven't considered is that this may be a childs gun, which would explain the small caliber and short barrel length
https://www.icollector.com/Child-s-Sized-Under-Hammer-Target-Rifle_i31513808

I can't really tell from the first picture of the stamp exactly how it looks. I need reading glasses even with my laptop these days. Can you maybe dust the stamping with a bit of baby powder to fill the letters and wipe off the excess on the barrel so we can see it more clearly?

 

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[Retired Sarge]

Parts get copied, reused, recycled etc.

A popular design gets copied over and over. The stock breaks, a new stock is made and the old accoutrements are reused. The brass inlays could be something that is made by another company and sold to gunsmiths.There are so many reasons why the same design is seen over and over.

 

[Billieg]

I have a PA deer rifle double barrel (over and under) that was my grandpas and it has the same brass patch box on the stock. I believe yours is real and not a repo. Good luck!

 

[Retired Sarge]

I have a PA deer rifle double barrel (over and under) that was my grandpas and it has the same brass fitting on the stock which opens up to hold something. I believe yours is real and not a repo.

The hinged compartment is called the Patch Box, and was originally intended to hold patches. Later rifles used it to store a spare nipple, and tools in it. This was when some rifles used a pre-made paper cartridge.

But for all intent and purposes it's referred to as the Patch Box.

 

[huntsman53]

I found this history of Windsor, Vermont to be very interesting. On page 170, it gives information about Nicanor Kendall and only briefly mentions that Nicanor learned gun making from Asa Story, the local Gunsmith. In light of this, I believe that any genuine A. Story or Asa Story marked rifles are in fact extremely rare. Also on page 170, it tells of the event (near tragedy) that occurred that spurred Nicanor Kendall to improve on the Underhammer Rifle design. It goes on to give information on other Gun Makers such as Colman Hubbard, Richard Smith Lawrence and others from or associated with those in Windsor, Vermont, some of which were just partners in manufacturing of rifles and other items.

https://vermonthistory.org/journal/misc/EarlyWindsorIndustries.pdf

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I can't really tell from the first picture of the stamp exactly how it looks. I need reading glasses even with my laptop these days. Can you maybe dust the stamping with a bit of baby powder to fill the letters and wipe off the excess on the barrel so we can see it more clearly?

I no longer have the rifle here but I enlarged the original photo. If you click on it, the photo gets larger. My April 1966 American Rifleman says (Asa) "Story's complete production of underhammers over a span of about 45 years will never be known. He was, however, one of the first to serially number all his guns and to keep a record of production." The Asa Story rifle shown a few posts back is serial number 110 and the stock is apple wood.

As I said there is no serial number on this old style octagon to round barrel so it may be an early Asa barrel like maybe 1820's before he purchased barrels from Remington.. But the stock trigger guard, inlays and peep sight match closely to Bairds "copycat" 1840s rifles. But I can find no early Asa to compare to what was copied. Its possible its an 1810-20 barrel on a newer 1840-50 Baird stock. Mine looks like Rosewood but I may be wrong. I have no idea what apple wood would look like.



That's cool stuff to read Huntsmann53. It mentions again Nicanore Kendall's underhammer patent (or maybe an improvement). Asa Story continued to make rifles and died somewhere in his 80's while Kendall died at about 54.



EDIT: But check out rifle #1 in the photo between page 176 and page 177. Its identified as an 1836 Kendall rifle with my trigger guard and maybe my patchbox too. So that would be before his Windsor precision parts factory. This is the first time we found a matching triggerguard in the 1830's. That may be all we need. The barrel still doesn't match and sights are a little different but this is getting closer to a likely 1820's dateline if authentic.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Well the font of the stamping definitely looks right for the era, maybe it is one of his early guns, I hope it gets solved soon, because I'd sure like to know

 

[cw0909]

the AMERICAN PRECISION MUSEUM, say they have a Asa Story
maybe they will compare maker stamp for ya, send them img of
yours
https://www.americanprecision.org/firearms

https://www.americanprecision.org/about/contact-us

 

[BAW]

There is nothing whatsoever about this rifle that suggests it is a reproduction. What is there to give the idea that the extended rear sight somehow is meant to strike a flint to light tinder? The idea seems rather absurd. Not only is there no known parallel to such a thing, using the rear sight of a target rifle for a flint striker would not be conducive to accuracy. Someone asked if the furniture might be German silver- it probably is. Its' use on above-average quality rifles in the 19th century was not uncommon. This seems to be a completely authentic New England underhammer rifle of the 1830-1860 era.

 

[Robot]

I am sorry...I believe you have a...Reproduction of the Hilliard Target Rifle!

The Underhammer Society: Hilliard Target Rifle

The Stock, Barrel, Locks...all are inferior components!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

There is nothing whatsoever about this rifle that suggests it is a reproduction. What is there to give the idea that the extended rear sight somehow is meant to strike a flint to light tinder? The idea seems rather absurd. Not only is there no known parallel to such a thing, using the rear sight of a target rifle for a flint striker would not be conducive to accuracy. Someone asked if the furniture might be German silver- it probably is. Its' use on above-average quality rifles in the 19th century was not uncommon. This seems to be a completely authentic New England underhammer rifle of the 1830-1860 era.

(EDITED down for clarity)That comment was over a year ago from day one! I didn't realize at first that the bent metal tang was a peep sight. Someone had been bending it down repeatedly and it left bad scratches, metal on metal, as if someone was trying to make a spark and parts are missing.

Yes Im over 99% certain its authentic along with the other items I obtained. I figure an early Asa Story with no serial number. And I thought it looked like German silver. Thank you for your comment..

I wish I could find the missing adjuster for the peep sight. Im going to have to make something.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The Underhammer Society: Hilliard Target Rifle

The Stock, Barrel, Locks...all are inferior components!

View attachment 1850468View attachment 1850469View attachment 1850470

Nope, nope, nope. No sir, that is not a match. Very good underhammer site however that we all studied very closely already. Unfortunately the society is no longer accepting photos or I could have had my rifle added and possibly led to authentication.

Inferior components? Not sure what you mean. They were all hand made at the time and it may be the only Asa Story rifle of this kind. I wish I could find a match but it may not be possible. "The Hilliard design bears a striking resemblance and similarity to the work of Nicanor Kendall, which bears similarity to the work of Asa Story. Because these men were contemporaries living almost within spitting distance of each other, one has to wonder who was copying whom!"

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Guess what? I finally obtained some .32 caliber balls to see if it fits down the barrel but it does not, even without the patch. I dont want to force it and get it stuck. The lead balls are .310 but they do not fit in my Asa Story barrel. So its not .32 caliber. The Asa Story barrel must be .30 caliber or maybe smaller? What does it mean?

There is little doubt in my mind the authenticity of this rifle. I have known the owner for years and he stored it in his shed for 40 years. But it doesn't stop me from searching for a matching rifle, replica or otherwise. I can post more pics tonight. Thank you everyone for your interest in this beautiful piece of American history..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am sorry...I believe you have a...Reproduction of the Hilliard Target Rifle!
The Stock, Barrel, Locks...all are inferior components!

If a Hilliard reproduction exists Robot, then why cant we find it?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

My .32 CVA squirrel on the left, the Asa Story on the right. I use the .310 lead balls with a patch in the .32 squirrel barrel. But the .310 ball wont fit in the Asa Story. Is close but wont fit. I was hoping to fire the old Asa Story but its not a .32.

View attachment 1851958View attachment 1851959

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I don't even know if they make a lead ball to fit this barrel.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/dept/muzzleloaders/projectiles/round-balls

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/black-powder/black-powder-patches-wads-and-projectile/round-ball/

 

[releventchair]

All that's needed (besides solid stock for mold haves) is a "cherry" to grind out the cavity.

A gunmaker was the/a source for a bullet mold with a new rifle.
Customers could influence caliber when custom/specific calibers were desired.

Have not browsed a Dixie catalog lately but they used to offer an old time hair straightener a mold could be made from. Some already carved. A bit if the company's history.
They used to have quite a variety of sizes.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...d/336/name/Balls,+Bullets+and+Blanks?view_all

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think i would need a .290 ball to have some room for a patch. But im just guessing. Since its not a .32 would that make it more likely to not be a 20th century reproduction?

 

[releventchair]

I think i would need a .290 ball to have some room for a patch. But im just guessing. Since its not a .32 would that make it more likely to not be a 20th century reproduction?

I wouldn't dare make the call on authenticity.
One thing that nags is the wood of the stock. Yes , a repro can use a very fancy wood. I'd not care to pay for it though.

Your bore looks nasty. You can see it better than I though.
A patched lubed ball that almost fits , will fit.
(No , don't swat it in. You'll want it back out a second later, and it will say , "no I'm all happy here".)
IF you've loaded a tight ball and patch you'll know what I mean. About the swat (s) to start it. I've watched a builder use a mallet. Not so much for the force required , but the repeated firing and loading of a tight patch and ball combo (as he desired) would be hard on a hands palm using a common short starter alone. Plus the risk of gouging marring the ball on it's nose/outward facing surface.

Some folks want a very tight fit.
Some like me when facing 100 plus shots in a weekend (once upon a time) are content with a loose fit , but one where the ball still gets upset enough from the powder charge to get involved with the rifling. Even if not the same way a tighter fitting one would.

Getting below 30 cal. is getting small. Pistol maybe , blackpowder rifle? Hmm. I'd be apprehensive about busting a ramrod or something. Let alone the flex while in the bore.

I've lost track , your bore shows rifling? There's a lot of barrel wall to it. But that could be a weight design too.
Certainly would seem to leave room for re-boring , assuming the material is of good quality.

As mentioned previously .32 was about the low end of common squirrel rifles. That does not mean your rifle is anything in relation.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Your bore looks nasty. You can see it better than I though.
A patched lubed ball that almost fits , will fit.
(No , don't swat it in. You'll want it back out a second later, and it will say , "no I'm all happy here".)
IF you've loaded a tight ball and patch you'll know what I mean. About the swat (s) to start it. I've watched a builder use a mallet. Not so much for the force required , but the repeated firing and loading of a tight patch and ball combo (as he desired) would be hard on a hands palm using a common short starter alone. Plus the risk of gouging marring the ball on it's nose/outward facing surface.

Some folks want a very tight fit.
Some like me when facing 100 plus shots in a weekend (once upon a time) are content with a loose fit , but one where the ball still gets upset enough from the powder charge to get involved with the rifling. Even if not the same way a tighter fitting one would.

Getting below 30 cal. is getting small. Pistol maybe , blackpowder rifle? Hmm. I'd be apprehensive about busting a ramrod or something. Let alone the flex while in the bore.

I've lost track , your bore shows rifling? There's a lot of barrel wall to it. But that could be a weight design too.
Certainly would seem to leave room for re-boring , assuming the material is of good quality.

As mentioned previously .32 was about the low end of common squirrel rifles. That does not mean your rifle is anything in relation.

The .310 ball without a patch does not fit. I have experience shooting round balls in the eight muzzleloaders that I now own and hunt with. And I have hunted black powder 40 years. It may not be apparent in the photo, but believe me, it does not fit, even without a patch. I even took a photo side by side of my .32 caliber CVA Squirrel rifle for comparison in which the ball drops in and dumps out easily without a patch. You can see the CVA .32 is a larger bore with the naked eye. (see added photo) I also used a caliper.

Its definitely a smaller bore than .32 caliber, without any doubt whatsoever. Since its a rifle, not a pistol, you cannot force an oversized patchless lead ball down a rifle barrel like you do a pistol! I wouldn't do it. Why not just use the correct ball? And, as you know, you cannot back it out. Not without a puller.

Yes its rifled. Yes its old. It was full of rust from sitting in a backyard shed for 40 years. Its an antique, not a squirrel hunting replica. But I think it will shoot. Like someone said, you shoot these antique rifles once and put them back on the wall or museum display.

I appreciate your comment and I always appreciate your insight but lets not go backwards. The .32 caliber (.310 lead ball) will not fit, even without a patch, in a .300 barrel. My unknown Asa Story appears to be a rare .30 caliber. Yes, thats rare for a rifle. I would have to use a .290 lead ball to allow for a .10 patch. And I would probably have to cast my own. I think this is another step forward in authentication.